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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » [Poll] Which pvp ruleset prevents more the ganks?

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56 posts found
  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

1/01/13 10:27:12 AM#21

The question is not with the ruleset.  The question is how the game is designed.  If there is full loot or if game have instance.

 

The problem is FFA pvp many come with full loot.  If I get gank in Wow, I just suck it up and move along.  If I get gank in Dark Fall, I loss like everything.

Also no one really care about ganking in wow, the thing is people are hiding in instanced dungeon, or instanced battleground anyway.  They dont' even spend much time in the open world.

 

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

1/01/13 10:29:52 AM#22
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Robokapp

how much pvp do you see in a wow pve realm ,where this consent system is in place ? one fight per month ? two fights per month ?

 

Plenty, but it goes on in battlegrounds and arenas.

 

Sorry, but I can't condone the rampant slaughter of PVE'ers just because it's fun for the people with the upper hand.

 

the counter argument looks like this:

 

I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

 

while i'm not a ganker, nor a pvp'er, BG's and arenas are by themselves insufficient unless a game can incorporate them into its world in a relevant way. Back to Wintergrasp and Told Barad, that's good. It's consensual, it's very much like a BG, and its relevant to the world. If every BG had such functions - aka not just another BG where all that's at stake is 250 honor points - then I'd agree with you fully.

 

bg's and arenas are miningames. they are holding little to no relevance to the game world.

Maybe most of us realize MMORPG is just a video game.  Not everyone have the imagination that the so called whatever MMORPG is a real world.

  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

1/01/13 11:11:45 AM#23

Didnt vote because I have never played a FFA MMO accompanied with a harsh ruleset for PK'ing.

Aside from the "universally hated" kiddies who take max level toons into lower level areas to harrass people.  Why avoid ganking at all?  It is part of the fun.  IMO, this adds a level of real danger to pve zones and makes the experience more enjoyable.

  Ramanadjinn

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1316

1/01/13 11:33:16 AM#24
Originally posted by laokoko

The question is not with the ruleset.  The question is how the game is designed.  If there is full loot or if game have instance.

 

The problem is FFA pvp many come with full loot.  If I get gank in Wow, I just suck it up and move along.  If I get gank in Dark Fall, I loss like everything.

Also no one really care about ganking in wow, the thing is people are hiding in instanced dungeon, or instanced battleground anyway.  They dont' even spend much time in the open world.

 

 

A common rhetorical tool that many against FFA loot use is to compare looting in a full loot game to looting in WOW.  I'm not claiming you are being dishonest, but the comparisons some make aren't necessarily apples to aples so to speak.

In most non full loot games such as WOW or SWTOR a character's gear is the culmination of months if not years of hard work and dedication and it is that gear that is a major defining aspect of one's character.   Most, if such a choice could exist, would rather have their gear than their actual character.

In many of those games such as Darkfall or Ultima Online it is the player skill and the characters build/skillset that more fully defines the character.  Gear is replaced much more quickly and with much less investment from the player in all but the more rare circumstances.  In many of these games players can play with nearly worthless or in some cases no gear at all and still have an effective character.

My main point being, losing "everything" in WOW is not equivalent to losing "everything" in say, Darkfall.  Because in Darkfall the extremely vast majority of what makes your character excel is not the equipment you lost on dying.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

1/01/13 11:51:28 AM#25
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by laokoko

The question is not with the ruleset.  The question is how the game is designed.  If there is full loot or if game have instance.

 

The problem is FFA pvp many come with full loot.  If I get gank in Wow, I just suck it up and move along.  If I get gank in Dark Fall, I loss like everything.

Also no one really care about ganking in wow, the thing is people are hiding in instanced dungeon, or instanced battleground anyway.  They dont' even spend much time in the open world.

 

 

A common rhetorical tool that many against FFA loot use is to compare looting in a full loot game to looting in WOW.  I'm not claiming you are being dishonest, but the comparisons some make aren't necessarily apples to aples so to speak.

In most non full loot games such as WOW or SWTOR a character's gear is the culmination of months if not years of hard work and dedication and it is that gear that is a major defining aspect of one's character.   Most, if such a choice could exist, would rather have their gear than their actual character.

In many of those games such as Darkfall or Ultima Online it is the player skill and the characters build/skillset that more fully defines the character.  Gear is replaced much more quickly and with much less investment from the player in all but the more rare circumstances.  In many of these games players can play with nearly worthless or in some cases no gear at all and still have an effective character.

My main point being, losing "everything" in WOW is not equivalent to losing "everything" in say, Darkfall.  Because in Darkfall the extremely vast majority of what makes your character excel is not the equipment you lost on dying.

That not the point.  You don't loss "anything" in wow.  There is a difference between not lossing anything or lossing somethings which could take hours to recover. 

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1830

1/01/13 11:55:38 AM#26

Easy button.

If people can gank, they will.

Even in "fair fights" people gank. 6 vs 6 is never 6 vs 6. 6 guys pile on to one guy and gank him down. The only thing that deters gank is hard rules on LoS. Meaning if your buddy is in my face, you can't shoot me from 20 meters out because he is in the way. Better, you can try and take him in the back of the head.

  Ramanadjinn

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1316

1/01/13 11:57:18 AM#27
Originally posted by laokoko

 

That not the point.  You don't loss "anything" in wow.  There is a difference between not lossing anything or lossing somethings which could take hours to recover. 

 

I'm not missing your point.  To be clear, I and most sane individuals would have to agree there is a difference in loss between games like WOW and Darkfall.  I was only pointing out that difference should be noted for what it is.  No more or less.  

Specifically when one is discussing the topic of "gank motivation" as we are here, one has to consider the full spectrum of game design and not simply compare microsystems within the different games as if there is a perfect mapping between the two systems.  Which i believe was at the heart of your original point.  I only expanded on that thought.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19501

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

1/01/13 11:57:50 AM#28

None of the above.

Ganking is only prevented if there is some sort of game mechanic, either developer or player created to discourage ganking in the first place.

EVE puts many controls into certain game areas to reduce (not totally eliminate) ganking in those areas and has unrestricted PVP in other zones which is pretty much open season on anyone not Blue to you.

As others have mentioned, what exactly is ganking?  Attacking other players who have no chance at fighting back?  In a title like WOW that's sort of considered bad form, but in EVE its the proper tactic to always take, if you're in a fair fight you've done something wrong.

The difference between the two is in the consequences.  When your ship or gear is on the line (like EVE or DF), winning at all cost is all that really matters, the principals of fair play don't really apply. (More like real life warfare)

When there's little on the line such as in WOW or Aion, then people tend to treat PVP more like a sport and want the rules fair and balanced for everyone.

Neither approach is better than the other, just  a matter of what people prefer. (and the fair and balanced approach seems to e what a majority of the player base prefers)

Here's the thing some folks forget, people rarely enjoy being "prey" and a certain segment of the player base will refuse to particpate if that's all they ever end up being.  Just isn't fun for them.

 

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  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

1/01/13 12:21:11 PM#29
Originally posted by Kyleran

None of the above.

Ganking is only prevented if there is some sort of game mechanic, either developer or player created to discourage ganking in the first place.

EVE puts many controls into certain game areas to reduce (not totally eliminate) ganking in those areas and has unrestricted PVP in other zones which is pretty much open season on anyone not Blue to you.

As others have mentioned, what exactly is ganking?  Attacking other players who have no chance at fighting back?  In a title like WOW that's sort of considered bad form, but in EVE its the proper tactic to always take, if you're in a fair fight you've done something wrong.

The difference between the two is in the consequences.  When your ship or gear is on the line (like EVE or DF), winning at all cost is all that really matters, the principals of fair play don't really apply. (More like real life warfare)

When there's little on the line such as in WOW or Aion, then people tend to treat PVP more like a sport and want the rules fair and balanced for everyone.

Neither approach is better than the other, just  a matter of what people prefer. (and the fair and balanced approach seems to e what a majority of the player base prefers)

Here's the thing some folks forget, people rarely enjoy being "prey" and a certain segment of the player base will refuse to particpate if that's all they ever end up being.  Just isn't fun for them.

 

I agree with what you wrote entirely. 

I wish I knew where the disconnect happened.  In games like WoW, servers are clearly labeled "PvP,"  yet they have become increasingly unpopular.  It is almost as if people are wanting less and less PvP, and yet still want to have PvP servers.  PvE servers are maintained while PvP servers are slowly whittling away.

Why is it in games like WoW, OWPvP it is considered poor form to take someone out who wasnt paying attention.  Part of the fun for me was keeping my head on a swivel.  Controlling how many mobs I attack at one time in order to keep health high and CD's up.  What really baffles me is that you run zero risk of losing anything (except time and a little money). 

Across all games, the idea of a "consensual/fair fight" boggles my mind.  It shouldnt even be a factor.  If this is a factor, then why have PvP servers to begin with?

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

1/01/13 12:24:44 PM#30
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by laokoko

 

That not the point.  You don't loss "anything" in wow.  There is a difference between not lossing anything or lossing somethings which could take hours to recover. 

 

I'm not missing your point.  To be clear, I and most sane individuals would have to agree there is a difference in loss between games like WOW and Darkfall.  I was only pointing out that difference should be noted for what it is.  No more or less.  

Specifically when one is discussing the topic of "gank motivation" as we are here, one has to consider the full spectrum of game design and not simply compare microsystems within the different games as if there is a perfect mapping between the two systems.  Which i believe was at the heart of your original point.  I only expanded on that thought.

Is that even the topic of conversation here?

The only thing I said is I dont' care about getting ganked in wow because you don't loss anything.  I care about getting ganked in darkfall.  That is the only thing I said.   

Maybe you get mislead when I say you loss "everything".  I loss everything in inventory and everything I'm wearing ok? 

I played wow and I played darkfall.  In wow I dont' care about getting ganked.  In darkfall I care.  That is all.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

1/01/13 1:29:29 PM#31
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by Alberel

I think some people are mis-interpreting the OP here.

Some older MMOs had FFA PvP with a bounty system that allowed the community to police itself and punish 'murderers' in its own way (usually by making them a target who can be killed without consequence and encouraging the community to hunt them down by offering a reward). In my opinion those systems are the best for preventing ganks as it reduces the likelihood of players ganking for the sake of it and instead only doing it when they have a reason to. This kind of system works best in sandbox MMOs though to be fair...

It also creates a soft separation between those who want to PvP and those who don't. Everyone is permanently flagged but the gankers are more likely to go after their own kind due to the way the system works.

It all balances out nicely in the end and allows the PvPers a FFA playground and the others the thrill of playing in that environment without the frustration of battles that are decided before their opponent even attacks.

Except it's easily circumvented by having a character that is strictly for PvP you log on to cause havoc with and log out when you are done and other characters you play differently with. Your premise only works if you have 1 character pr account but even then, people are just going to buy a second account

A pvp character may be blocked from advancing in pve (a buffer buffs him and is flagged, too) outside special stuff, moreover the game may require work to work off your sins, even the number of pked people, one by one :)

IF a player spends a month getting the character up, and then has to spend time working off every kill, unless he just wants to constantly loose stuff (exp mostly, that is why this works best in sandboxes and grind games), i have no problem with him ganking.

The effort vs reward ratio (if set up properly) evens things out, some dedicated people will still pk for whatever reason, roleplay, anarchistic tendencies. What it filters off is what we want filtered off, impatient half-wits oneshotting lowbies quipping "gf, n00b" :)

Which is the kind of people wow pvp servers are overfilled with, fixed factions just mean free targets in that environment.

Flame on!

:)

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4821

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/01/13 1:31:31 PM#32
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Robokapp

how much pvp do you see in a wow pve realm ,where this consent system is in place ? one fight per month ? two fights per month ?

 

Plenty, but it goes on in battlegrounds and arenas.

 

Sorry, but I can't condone the rampant slaughter of PVE'ers just because it's fun for the people with the upper hand.

 

the counter argument looks like this:

 

I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

 

while i'm not a ganker, nor a pvp'er, BG's and arenas are by themselves insufficient unless a game can incorporate them into its world in a relevant way. Back to Wintergrasp and Told Barad, that's good. It's consensual, it's very much like a BG, and its relevant to the world. If every BG had such functions - aka not just another BG where all that's at stake is 250 honor points - then I'd agree with you fully.

 

bg's and arenas are miningames. they are holding little to no relevance to the game world.

Maybe most of us realize MMORPG is just a video game.  Not everyone have the imagination that the so called whatever MMORPG is a real world.

I said "game world" not "real world".

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

1/01/13 2:01:45 PM#33
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Robokapp

how much pvp do you see in a wow pve realm ,where this consent system is in place ? one fight per month ? two fights per month ?

 

Plenty, but it goes on in battlegrounds and arenas.

 

Sorry, but I can't condone the rampant slaughter of PVE'ers just because it's fun for the people with the upper hand.

 

the counter argument looks like this:

 

I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

 

while i'm not a ganker, nor a pvp'er, BG's and arenas are by themselves insufficient unless a game can incorporate them into its world in a relevant way. Back to Wintergrasp and Told Barad, that's good. It's consensual, it's very much like a BG, and its relevant to the world. If every BG had such functions - aka not just another BG where all that's at stake is 250 honor points - then I'd agree with you fully.

 

bg's and arenas are miningames. they are holding little to no relevance to the game world.

Maybe most of us realize MMORPG is just a video game.  Not everyone have the imagination that the so called whatever MMORPG is a real world.

I said "game world" not "real world".

Ya I mean why is it so important that the fighting have to be done in this so called virtual game world.  Most of us realize this world isn't real and is just a game.  I mean all this I don't want to play a game, I want a virtual world!

Fighting can't be done in battle ground, it break immersion!  That makes the game world unreal... whatever.

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

1/01/13 2:15:33 PM#34
Originally posted by bcbully
From what I've seen, option two. Harsh penaties, and penalties carried out by players, like bounty hunters and authorities. Give the players the tools, and they will police pk'n. No need for safe zones or guards for that matter.

This.

We only need to look at Age Of Wushu for an example.

  Quirhid

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Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/01/13 3:22:29 PM#35
Like someone already mentioned, ensuring that all PvP is consensual would be a good first step. Then you would only have to tackle the possible numbers and power differences.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  IIIcurrier

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/05
Posts: 109

1/01/13 3:31:52 PM#36

Asheron's Call has a cool system, there is a full on PK server, and non-pk servers where you can flag yourself for combat.

 

The main thing that encouraged players to fight with honor was the fact that your reputation means quite a bit, being a douche will not get you far at all.

 

Not to mention that in AC if you had skill, skill topped all, a level 50 mage could beat a level 150 mage if you ducked and weaved and played smart.

 

 

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4821

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/01/13 8:44:17 PM#37
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Robokapp

how much pvp do you see in a wow pve realm ,where this consent system is in place ? one fight per month ? two fights per month ?

 

Plenty, but it goes on in battlegrounds and arenas.

 

Sorry, but I can't condone the rampant slaughter of PVE'ers just because it's fun for the people with the upper hand.

 

the counter argument looks like this:

 

I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

 

while i'm not a ganker, nor a pvp'er, BG's and arenas are by themselves insufficient unless a game can incorporate them into its world in a relevant way. Back to Wintergrasp and Told Barad, that's good. It's consensual, it's very much like a BG, and its relevant to the world. If every BG had such functions - aka not just another BG where all that's at stake is 250 honor points - then I'd agree with you fully.

 

bg's and arenas are miningames. they are holding little to no relevance to the game world.

Maybe most of us realize MMORPG is just a video game.  Not everyone have the imagination that the so called whatever MMORPG is a real world.

I said "game world" not "real world".

Ya I mean why is it so important that the fighting have to be done in this so called virtual game world.  Most of us realize this world isn't real and is just a game.  I mean all this I don't want to play a game, I want a virtual world!

Fighting can't be done in battle ground, it break immersion!  That makes the game world unreal... whatever.

I didn't say it breaks immersion, I said it has no influence on the game world.

quite opposite from what you claim I said.

 

it CAn be done in a BG, it's jsut that it'll be a miningame not a game-relevant feature.

 

If we're to follow your train of thought, let's take it further. removing all pvp entirely will permanently solve the ganking problem.

 

let's not put it in a BG, let's not put it in at all. problem solved.

  ZombieKen

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

1/01/13 8:52:13 PM#38
Originally posted by Robokapp
 

the counter argument looks like this:

 

I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

 

Yep, I understand.

 

What I run up against in this sort of discussion is I don't understand why developers allow PK and then try to create mechanics trying to prevent ganking.

 

I end up in this loop:

 

If ganking is allowed, why punish it?

If ganking is punished, why allow it?

 

It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4821

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/01/13 8:59:54 PM#39

it does make sense.

 

queue 5 pag socio-phylosophical debate in which I argue fear is what both makes it feel real and keeps us 'feling' the game in a masochistic way.

 

the ability to gank simply is needed to better emulate a virtual world.

 

I mean you can kill in real life, but there's harsh consequences for it, right ? as such, that dark alley in that bad neighborhood at the wrong time wearing the wrong footbal team's shirt... is more than just another place to walk thru. it becomes  a high risk 'better get thru here quickly' area that draws an emotional response.

 

games, movies, art, music appeal to customers by provoking an emotional response.

 

Fear of death ... does promote a response. Problem is too much of it paralyzes the game. aka nobody will walk thru that alley. So the alley itself becomes meaningless to the player.

 

also enforcing punishments to PKing further enforces the importance of life and death. in a game like counterstrike where you respawn, pick a gun, resume shooting...a single death has little meaning. in an MMO, PKing, PK safe zones, PK punishments all make big waves enforcing the concept that "ITS A BIG DEAL TO GET KILLED".

 

it's just...death publicity.

 

Remember that guy who parachute jumped from stratosphere? how many people watched it live just to see a guy die in a fancy way ? Nobody was excited about the laning - perhaps other than his family. and sure as hell nobody cared about his records. we just wanted to see someone do something that might end up in a big splash.

 

when you jump from a .5 to a .4 in EVE...the stars look the same. your ship looks the same. difference is now your odds of being killed multiplied 1000fold. It does nothing to what you see, only to what you PERCEIVE. A guy warping to gate in a capsule...was he a victim? is he a scout? is he a target ? meanwhile one gate over in .5 a guy warping in a capsule...probably going to pick up a new ship. good for him. moving on...

 

anyone who spent too long in nullsec and goes to empire and sees 50 neutrals in local instantly has a panic moment thinking 'enemy gang. i jumped right into them. I'm so dead. dont arp too station. to sun? no, to a celesial. OH WAIT IM IN 0.7"

  Ecoces

Elite Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 838

1/01/13 9:05:18 PM#40
the DAOC way, where unless you RVR you don't interact with the enemy at all. no ganking what so ever. I have never EVER been ganked in DAOC as well as GW2 which has a very similar system.
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