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  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

12/31/12 7:11:31 PM#21
Originally posted by Aeolyn

At first glance I would probably give it a try but I'll go further than your "I also include heavy restrictions on Auction House use.", how about no auction house at all like UO?  If it's a seamless open world with hopefully some kind of player housing then adding limited vendors like UO did where you had to explore the world to find those favourite vendors that offered both rare and or great deals on items, it would surely pull me in for at least a few years of play. :)

His problem wouldn't be solved, as his issue isn't the auction house but that people were charging more than he feel he should have to pay for things. The same issue would exist with vendors.

  Aeolyn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 136

12/31/12 7:21:55 PM#22
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aeolyn

At first glance I would probably give it a try but I'll go further than your "I also include heavy restrictions on Auction House use.", how about no auction house at all like UO?  If it's a seamless open world with hopefully some kind of player housing then adding limited vendors like UO did where you had to explore the world to find those favourite vendors that offered both rare and or great deals on items, it would surely pull me in for at least a few years of play. :)

His problem wouldn't be solved, as his issue isn't the auction house but that people were charging more than he feel he should have to pay for things. The same issue would exist with vendors.

I guess it's all on how you read it, what I took away from his reply is that he's against the few(often ime, hackers and exploiters) manipulating the market and in so doing making goldsellers an option that many would never have considered if prices were more reasonable for the average player. 

 

UO prevented much of that because each player controlled how much they charged for their items.  Unless there is some way a guild or group of players can corner the market on housing/vendors, there will always be a viable option for those willing to actually play the game by exploring, hunting and crafting themselves instead of sitting with a bank alt at the ah buying and reselling ad nauseam until those who came after can't see any way to progress and just leave.

  koboldfodder

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 359

12/31/12 7:31:38 PM#23

I am playing that game right now.  Age of Wushu.

 

Your experience is capped per day but the way the combat works it really does not matter because the player skill is very much the deciding factor.  You have your attacks, feints and blocking ability and so does the opponent.  If you stand there mashing buttons, you die.

You can get every skill in the game, and decide what to level up and it will take a long time, both to level up the skills and just to get them in the first place if they are other school's skills.

There are two types of currency in the game.  Bound silver is what you get from NPC quests and you use that to purchase everything NPCs sell.  But everything that is player made or player sold requires regular silver which is much harder to get.  So they have taken the NPCs currency totally out of the equation with the player economy.

There is a dynamic crafting system where you can create tons of differnent things, and the way the skill system works it adds even more variance to your loot.  Very complex and difficult to understand though.

The world is open.  There are zones so it is not seamless, but you can go anywhere you want.  There are no levels in the game, so it is all skill based like old SWG was.  It is 90% sandbox and 10% themepark.

Pretty much most of hte stuff is eithe rplayer crafted or player enhanced.  There is loot though.  They have cooking, alchemy, poison making, farming, fishing, music, fortune telling...etc.  Lots of different skills.

The skill system is as open ended as you can get.  Take whatever you want if you can get it or make it or loot it, level it up whenever you want.  You are not limited to anything.

There is group content, group PVP events, as well as PVE group content as well as a pretty nifty anti-griefing penalty.  You can kidnap PCs while they are working offline, sell them to whomever....or you can rescue kidnapped players.  Killing a wanted criminal lands him/her in jail, they can excape with the help of an outside group or they can wait it out.  If they are really villianous, they will be publically beheaded....and they can even bribe someone to take their place in the beheading, lol.

The game is out there and you can play it right now.  It's not a western MMO, but it is not a new MMO.  It has been going on in China for a couple of years I think but  the graphics are very stylized.  The systems are basically in place and most of it is working as intended, maybe a few tweaks or additions.  They are beta testing the North American and European release as we speak.

 

I am not a PVP player, I am terrible at it, but the penalties are really nice so you do not have the problems you had in UO.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2620

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  12/31/12 8:20:57 PM#24
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aeolyn

At first glance I would probably give it a try but I'll go further than your "I also include heavy restrictions on Auction House use.", how about no auction house at all like UO?  If it's a seamless open world with hopefully some kind of player housing then adding limited vendors like UO did where you had to explore the world to find those favourite vendors that offered both rare and or great deals on items, it would surely pull me in for at least a few years of play. :)

His problem wouldn't be solved, as his issue isn't the auction house but that people were charging more than he feel he should have to pay for things. The same issue would exist with vendors.

In a sense yea.  But not quite right either.

 

You see my first MMO was Asherons Call in 1999 and I still it as the gold standard for gaming, nothing has ever come close and I started playing it again last week after a few years layoff because of some of the issues I am having with GW2  Such as not beaing able to make money, sure I can make about 1 gold an hour but im looking at 1000 hours or more jsut to be able to afford a Legendary Precursor "at todays" price"  What will the price be in a few months when ive aquired 500 gold?  More then likely double or triple, this main issue is why my playtime has gone drastically down hill.

 

Why cant tehre be static prices?  What do AH's do for the community?  so many more questions and issues are raised because of this issue IMO.

 

 I always get misty eyed when I go back to AC especially after coming from a new game.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2620

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  12/31/12 8:27:25 PM#25
Originally posted by Aeolyn

At first glance I would probably give it a try but I'll go further than your "I also include heavy restrictions on Auction House use.", how about no auction house at all like UO?  If it's a seamless open world with hopefully some kind of player housing then adding limited vendors like UO did where you had to explore the world to find those favourite vendors that offered both rare and or great deals on items, it would surely pull me in for at least a few years of play. :) 

 

Oh and please offer character customization where you can create a character that doesn't offend your sensibilities while you play, most women gamers don't want to look like hags and most guy gamers I know don't want to be short and bald, even if they are. :)  For clothing, LoTRO has a great design with their outfit options.  Being able to show your equipment or that cool looking robe and hood(or whatever) you just found on some hidden crafter's vendor with optional dyes is a good way to either stand apart or look like a part of a group. 

 

Note: Viable crafters are a very very important part of what helps keep a world alive, ie. no lootable armour or weapons, only have lootable clothing/crafting mats/exp/gold, then those who don't craft can sell their loot to crafters what they need and in turn will buy what the crafters make and thus the community has a base.

 

Also, if this is going to be a virtual world, don't forget all the activities that make living in a world fun, ie. fishing, treasure hunting via maps(both on and off land), gaming areas for those who like to sit and play checkers etc and even tournament arenas for those who like to 1v1 to settle scores, etc. etc.  Heck, make a bounty system to combat those who like to play thieves or pirates, that way those who don't want to just pve can make a living that way.

 

Anyway, if you could make a game similiar to what UO was like just after Tram, when skill was still what defined you but before they added neon colours and nerfed crafting, and had updated graphics with better camera views(please no first person or at least optional only) then I think alot of people would not only give it a try but enjoy it.  As someone else mentioned, 25% of what has seemed to become a culture of endgamers is pretty darn good, multiply that by the millions looking for a "better" game and voila!

reference the highlighted text:  I agree to an extent, but remove the incentive to actually play the game and IMO you remove the players.  I see it all the time in crafting centric games and raid centric games or any game that has "ONE" main way to aquire items, the world becomes dead as everyone do those activities.

 

Its why I love Asherons Call after all these years, even a game with 30 or 40 people on 12+ years later, the world is still full of adventurers and the 2 main reasons, extended leveling/progression times and dynamic loot system.  In GW2 or WoW you'll hardly see anyone in the world becasue A, the've already hit max level and are farming the only sources to aquire gear (dungeons and raids) and B, it takes them a couple of weeks to hit max level.  Make it take for freaking ever and have the entire world be your oyster and you open the world and emphasize exploration.  Crafting/dungeons/raids do none of those things.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Aeolyn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 136

12/31/12 9:31:16 PM#26
Originally posted by azzamasin

reference the highlighted text:  I agree to an extent, but remove the incentive to actually play the game and IMO you remove the players.  I see it all the time in crafting centric games and raid centric games or any game that has "ONE" main way to aquire items, the world becomes dead as everyone do those activities.

 

Its why I love Asherons Call after all these years, even a game with 30 or 40 people on 12+ years later, the world is still full of adventurers and the 2 main reasons, extended leveling/progression times and dynamic loot system.  In GW2 or WoW you'll hardly see anyone in the world becasue A, the've already hit max level and are farming the only sources to aquire gear (dungeons and raids) and B, it takes them a couple of weeks to hit max level.  Make it take for freaking ever and have the entire world be your oyster and you open the world and emphasize exploration.  Crafting/dungeons/raids do none of those things.

My point about the crafters is that they are a very important part of what creates a community base, not that they are the be all and end all to the game, they are however what enables others to do what they want to do a little better, ie. go kill that boss for his/her treasure trove, help save the world, or farm those dragons for mats or the resources or area they are guarding that will let you build  that castle/keep you've been wanting or even just to build that new chest you wanted to store your elite loot in. 

 

The actual incentive to play the game is as varied as the players, depending on who you talk to, but any game that doesn't give you or those other players who may not share your incentive but are a part of the world and thusly important to your game all a reason to play the whole world and enjoy the journey to endgame, instead only offering endgame content that usually consists of nothing but pvp, raids, and dungeons that quickly become boring after the 10th or 100th repeat even for those who insist this is what the game is all about, are missing the boat and therefore lowering their profit margin. 

 

Negating the incentive/gameplay that many who would be happy to be a part of the world but don't all want to be heroes/heroines is just short sighted.  That's why imo even after the debacle in UO before Tram the devs didn't get rid of pvp or Felucca, they instead gave players an option.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

12/31/12 10:03:33 PM#27
Originally posted by Aeolyn
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aeolyn

At first glance I would probably give it a try but I'll go further than your "I also include heavy restrictions on Auction House use.", how about no auction house at all like UO?  If it's a seamless open world with hopefully some kind of player housing then adding limited vendors like UO did where you had to explore the world to find those favourite vendors that offered both rare and or great deals on items, it would surely pull me in for at least a few years of play. :)

His problem wouldn't be solved, as his issue isn't the auction house but that people were charging more than he feel he should have to pay for things. The same issue would exist with vendors.

I guess it's all on how you read it, what I took away from his reply is that he's against the few(often ime, hackers and exploiters) manipulating the market and in so doing making goldsellers an option that many would never have considered if prices were more reasonable for the average player. 

UO prevented much of that because each player controlled how much they charged for their items.  Unless there is some way a guild or group of players can corner the market on housing/vendors, there will always be a viable option for those willing to actually play the game by exploring, hunting and crafting themselves instead of sitting with a bank alt at the ah buying and reselling ad nauseam until those who came after can't see any way to progress and just leave.

There is nothing to prevent the AH scenario he speaks of from happening with player vendors. It could be done faster with an AH, but just as easily doable with vendors. Re-read his post and his followup posts. He wants price caps on things so that they cannot be sold for more than what he thinks the value is, demand be damned.

 

  Yodi2007

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 166

12/31/12 11:21:34 PM#28
I think that sandbox mmo's should have some themepark design in it, think of it more like a tutorial . I don't mind free for all pvp but like in real life it should have some dire concequences. Griefers could be hunted down and jailed or executed with some typ of significant loss!

Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2620

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  1/06/13 10:26:59 PM#29

UPDATE:

 

Read this article, this is 100% why I abhore Auction Houses in an MMO.  Being able to aquire wealth through "gaming" the AH is the #1 reason why games with AH's lose appeal.  This is the reason why I believe an AH should only be there to "hawk your wares" or find items you need and want.  It should never be used for people to be able to aquire wealth.  The wealth should ALWAYS come from playing the game IMO and this post elegantly explains why GW2's Trading Post is a POS.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/162v35/how_average_users_can_save_the_guild_wars_2/

 

First off let me give you a little bit of background, I have been a player of Guild Wars 2 from launch. I've been trading almost nonstop in the game for the last four month, and had stockpiled an amount of gold that was pretty unreasonable, I was starting to feel like smaug. My pursuit of more gold had become somewhat of an obsession, and finding ways to extract 100's and sometimes 1000's of gold out of the markets and away from other players became exciting and fun. I had no plans or goals in mind for the money besides increasing my own power to manipulate markets.

I am making this post because I have been removed from the game due to my snowflake exploiting, I am beyond guilty and made 200-600% (multiple thousands of gold) in returns with the exploit because I used it as soon as the patch dropped, and through the next two days. I do feel a little bad for the players who did it towards the end before it was removed as they probably only made a few dozen gold and still got the same ban as players like me, regardless I accept my ban from the game and in retrospect I realize most of my actions in game have actually been hurting the in game economy, and all of you. It's probably a good thing that I am no longer allowed into the marketplace.

As one of the players who saw ways to manipulate and profit from market I can say the number one problem to the guild wars economy is not exploiters (although they are clearly a problem), it's the market confusion from normal players. When markets are out of balance (goods from one market can be converted to another market at a profit) That means players can cycle wealth and create gold out of the trading post at an unlimited level. This is what has happened to Guild Wars 2, markets have been out of balance for four months. Those who see it will create hundreds of gold, those who are not looking will become poorer over time, and eventually unable to compete in the unfair trading waters of the plutocracy.

The markets are already mostly run by wealthy players, and I think it's pretty obvious to most people by now. The only way to stop this trend from becoming worse and worse is to identify these markets and have the community actively work on balancing them. This is done by players seeing the profit and deciding to also engage in a market converting activity. As an EvE online trading veteran it is surprising to see that the Guild Wars 2 community has failed to fix these unbalanced markets since the game has launched. I suspect that the main reason is due to the trading post tax being so high, it makes markets very confusing and the question of profitability always has to come into play, even when making steady normal profit. The other would be information suppression by those players currently making hundreds of gold off of these unbalanced markets.

It seems the prevailing notion in this community is there is nothing you can do to the wealthy players, and they already control the markets. This is not at all true, you have the ability to close off the free gold making machines they have been using since the game launched. I will now go into the problem markets that are making Guild Wars 2 into a less and less fair trading economy, and detail what the average user can do to fix it, and at the same time make a modest amount of gold for yourself. Once the markets are relatively balanced again I think the Guild Wars 2 economy will be in a much more stable and equal position.

1 Tier 5 Materials -> Globs of Ectoplasm

This is the craft and salvage market, it has massive volume and is by far the number one money maker in the game. It has pretty safe returns in general and can yield very high profit margins. I would go as far to say that 30-50% of all the gold generated by traders comes from this market. The reason I say it is so high is because botters are supplying endless amounts of T5 materials, even ordering a thousand gold of materials does not really have a significant impact on the T5 market. Since the bots went underwater large scale orders I used were filled in the 10,000's in the matter of an hour.

You can currently pick up Tier 5 Materials at a cost of around 95 copper. For 15 of them and about 4-5 silver in silk, leather, and thread you can craft lvl 80 rare items. This should cost you about 19-20 silver to make. Now to salvage the item with a master salvage kit should yield about .9 ectos per item (I've done 10,000's of salvages and made thousands of gold from this market can confirm master kits return higher than the others and at a rate of .9 ecto per item. (9 ectos per 10 items salvaged on average)

This allows you to turn 20 silver into .9 ectos, or if you set it to the price to obtain 1 ecto it becomes 22 silver to obtain an ectoplam. If you need ectos for yourself it is an amazing way to save 35% of the market price, if you are looking to sell them you can make about a 20% return on any money you put after tax is taken out. The returns are immediate and can be cycled. Ideally enough people will start doing this to eventually balance the markets and fix the massive wealth disparity. This will cripple gold sellers easy way to print 100's of gold a day, and stop the guild wars 2 economy wealth gap from continuing to split.

Major -> Superior

Similar returns are possible on material upgrading. Specifically major runes to superior runes, and major sigils to superior sigils in the mystic forge. This market involves a lot more luck, but its like a slot machine that returns 130% back over the long run. Sure you lose a lot of the time, but if you put 100 gold in you can expect 130 gold out. There is still risk of not hitting any good runes in smaller sample sizes and losing money. Maintaining these markets requires knowing the average cost of the superior rune markets, and that takes a lot more time to watch and maintain. If there is enough community demand I can go into the numbers of this market to show the profit margins.

There are also quite a few other smaller markets that I could share if there is enough interest in this. I just don't want to spend any more time on this if there is not.

I am not sharing this information so a few reddit members can make gold trading as well, although some probably will because its a side effect of balancing the markets. It's my aim to instead shut down the infinite gold supply that 1-2% of the community is taking advantage of at the expense of the other 99-98%. It's up to you guys how you want to react to this information, but I figured since I am now banned from the game, and I doubt anyone making hundreds of gold from it would give out this information and destroy their own money making machine I might as well make this information public, and leave the fate of the Guild Wars 2 economy up to the larger community.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

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