Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vesavius

As is paying a sub for some... but ingrained points of views aside....

I am actually proud that the Western consumer is looking at the cash shop revenue model and asking questions enough to stall it's uptake.

It shows we are still thinking about things and how they effect us, our wallets, and the games we play.

Critical thinking and education one's self about a system = good.

Unfortunately, there's a lot more blind adherence to talking points (most of which have been proven false many times over) than there is genuine skepticism and question asking.

In all honestly, and honestly no offense (because I might not like what you say a lot of time, but I respect you as a poster here)... call it what you will, as long as the cash shop cancer is stalled.

I have personally yet to see the superiority of the cash shop 'proven', especially in terms of community building and game design (which is all I really personally care about, alongside consumer clarity ofc).

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vesavius

As is paying a sub for some... but ingrained points of views aside....

I am actually proud that the Western consumer is looking at the cash shop revenue model and asking questions enough to stall it's uptake.

It shows we are still thinking about things and how they effect us, our wallets, and the games we play.

Critical thinking and education one's self about a system = good.

Unfortunately, there's a lot more blind adherence to talking points (most of which have been proven false many times over) than there is genuine skepticism and question asking.

In all honestly, and honestly no offense (because I might not like what you say a lot of time, but I respect you as a poster here)... call it what you will, as long as the cash shop cancer is stalled.

I have personally yet to see the superiority of the cash shop 'proven', especially in terms of community building and game design (which is all I really personally care about, alongside consumer clarity ofc).

If it came across that I am saying/inferring item malls are a superior business model then I apologize. It is simply a different business model. Like all business models, the one that prevails is the one that the consumer prefers the most, be it universally or for particular segments of a product or service.

I also have no issue with you deeming the model a cancer, as that is your opinion and just as valid as any other opinion. My reply was about the reasons many have for disliking the item malls, as many hold fast to misinformation and reject any fact, data or history that proves their beleif wrong.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vesavius

As is paying a sub for some... but ingrained points of views aside....

I am actually proud that the Western consumer is looking at the cash shop revenue model and asking questions enough to stall it's uptake.

It shows we are still thinking about things and how they effect us, our wallets, and the games we play.

Critical thinking and education one's self about a system = good.

Unfortunately, there's a lot more blind adherence to talking points (most of which have been proven false many times over) than there is genuine skepticism and question asking.

In all honestly, and honestly no offense (because I might not like what you say a lot of time, but I respect you as a poster here)... call it what you will, as long as the cash shop cancer is stalled.

I have personally yet to see the superiority of the cash shop 'proven', especially in terms of community building and game design (which is all I really personally care about, alongside consumer clarity ofc).

If it came across that I am saying/inferring item malls are a superior business model then I apologize. It is simply a different business model. Like all business models, the one that prevails is the one that the consumer prefers the most, be it universally or for particular segments of a product or service.

I also have no issue with you deeming the model a cancer, as that is your opinion and just as valid as any other opinion. My reply was about the reasons many have for disliking the item malls, as many hold fast to misinformation and reject and fact, data or history that proves their beleif wrong.

 

With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw.

I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.

Originally posted by Slappy1

With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw.

I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.

I agree completely that there is a wide range of approaches within the business model, some much more accepted than others. For example, NA gamers seem to be more than willing to shell out cash for cool skins and crazy mounts, however if you put those skins or mounts in mystery boxes it becomes almost universally rejected. Those same mystery boxes, though, if they offer a collection of items that can otherwise be obtained by regular play, then become far more acceptable.

I think I've spent more on Free Realms and Combat Arms than any other F2P games. On the flip side of that coin, I'd never give Runes of Magic or War Rock a dime of my money. Lots of variations within the model.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Slappy1

With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw.

I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.

I agree completely that there is a wide range of approaches within the business model, some much more accepted than others. For example, NA gamers seem to be more than willing to shell out cash for cool skins and crazy mounts, however if you put those skins or mounts in mystery boxes it becomes almost universally rejected. Those same mystery boxes, though, if they offer a collection of items that can otherwise be obtained by regular play, then become far more acceptable.

I think I've spent more on Free Realms and Combat Arms than any other F2P games. On the flip side of that coin, I'd never give Runes of Magic or War Rock a dime of my money. Lots of variations within the model.

 

Very true.The skins for weps and the mount's do seem to take on a whole different meaning when they're put in a chance box.So many way's that these companies present these thing's,many/most are fine with me,but some are just almost a greedy money grab so to speak.Many games have done that.

I'm out for the night,Happy New Year!

Originally posted by Slappy1

With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw.

I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.

I wonder if people are only favouring it due to the current MMO climate right now. However, like others have said, there are different business models for it and some work better than others. Like you, I've come across some that are just abysmal and some that are pretty decent. For me, I always make sure that any F2P I may potentially enjoy has a sub option that is on equal terms with the F2P option. Basically, I dont want to sub and still feel like I need to make micro transactions still.

Some games don't fit the bill, such as LoL (I know not an MMO), and to be honest, I like their model. 

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Slappy1

With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw.

I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.

I agree completely that there is a wide range of approaches within the business model, some much more accepted than others. For example, NA gamers seem to be more than willing to shell out cash for cool skins and crazy mounts, however if you put those skins or mounts in mystery boxes it becomes almost universally rejected. Those same mystery boxes, though, if they offer a collection of items that can otherwise be obtained by regular play, then become far more acceptable.

I think I've spent more on Free Realms and Combat Arms than any other F2P games. On the flip side of that coin, I'd never give Runes of Magic or War Rock a dime of my money. Lots of variations within the model.

 

Thats a pretty good observation, never looked at it from that perspective!

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by Slappy1

With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw.

I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.

I wonder if people are only favouring it due to the current MMO climate right now. However, like others have said, there are different business models for it and some work better than others. Like you, I've come across some that are just abysmal and some that are pretty decent. For me, I always make sure that any F2P I may potentially enjoy has a sub option that is on equal terms with the F2P option. Basically, I dont want to sub and still feel like I need to make micro transactions still.

Some games don't fit the bill, such as LoL (I know not an MMO), and to be honest, I like their model. 

I don't do recurring subs anymore, but I do occassionally buy a month of premium, or if a purchase package includes it then I'll take full advantage.  When I buy premium I would rather not have to buy content or unlocks from the store.  I really expect that to be included in the premium package.

On the other hand I hate when a game locks key fun features, content, or access behind the sub so the free play is little more than a gimped trial.

Many posters seem to think F2P was designed to allow them to play MMO’s which they did not want to play with the sub. Or that it was some sort of Gaming Welfare.

F2P is a revenue system, it is there to make money for the company that made the game. We told players who thought that F2P heralded a free ride in MMO’s that they were being delude and maybe they are now wising up to this fact.

For my next prediction, you will be seeing P2W creeping in over the next few years. These companies want to make money, the player base has accepted the F2P model. Gamers have proven themselves to be short sighted and gaming companies will just push forward in getting a maximum return from their game.

Originally posted by Scot

Many posters seem to think F2P was designed to allow them to play MMO’s which they did not want to play with the sub. Or that it was some sort of Gaming Welfare.

F2P is a revenue system, it is there to make money for the company that made the game. We told players who thought that F2P heralded a free ride in MMO’s that they were being delude and maybe they are now wising up to this fact.

For my next prediction, you will be seeing P2W creeping in over the next few years. These companies want to make money, the player base has accepted the F2P model. Gamers have proven themselves to be short sighted and gaming companies will just push forward in getting a maximum return from their game.

Its probably long past time that these games are no longer referred to as being free to play, because their not, they are microtransaction based games, although sometimes the 'micro' part isnt really all that 'micro' and the amount often needed to be paid can be significantly more than you would find in a P2P type of game, its just the 'charges' are spread out more. Take planetside 2, probably one of the newest additions to this genre, technically you can pay nothing, but if you really do intend to make a difference, then the amount you need to spend is significant, extremely so.  What may prove the games ultimate downfall though, is that also appears to be the case if you engage in a subscription.. somewhere out there, there is probably a game that has a microtransaction based model that is as fair to the players as it is to the company owning the game, its possible GW2 might fit this description, but the style of gameplay isnt for me.

Free to play is a demo for you to either sub or pay to unlock in the shop, which isn't a bad deal really.  Especially, if you like to play 5-6 games at a time and you aren't willing to pay $60-75 a month on subscriptions... 

Some people love to be hardcore and only play one game, great for them, but personally I Love being able to be casual on multiple games and to play each game slowly at my own pace, without the constant worry that my subscription time is running out and I have to cancel/rotate mmos around like I was doing several years ago... 

Having to quit playing a game you enjoy because you are playing other mmos at the same time is sad, and you (along with all of the other's who quit like you) are destroying it because the population drops and everyone thinks that the game is "dying or dead".  When in reality, people still love the game and want to play it, they just have other games distracting them at the time.  So, friend quits for 3 months and you miss them because they are gone, cancelled sub, free to play they never quit, continue to log on less often but still more often than once every 3 months, and everyone else on the game thinks that the game is "thriving, with a wonderfully pleasant active community".  Despite how many are free, or how many actually pay it doesn't matter, because the paying get their fun, and the free get ours... 

As said earlier, you don't have to unlock everything, you can play slowly and casually, but of course if you are hardcore single focused like a lot of people you should stick with subscriptions.... 

I had a subscription on Everquesst 1 for 7 years, now I can play for free... It sure feels nice to be able to log in, after putting thousands of dollars and over a year of actual in-game time into a game... 

I put money into the shop opened up race/classes, and of course inventory space/backpacks, now I don't need to buy anything else ever, I have what I want from it ). 

SWToR has the worst I have ever seen, however, I will still play it and see all of the class stories that I missed out on being casual and not playing enough during my subscription time... I simply can't believe you'd lock inventory expansion behind a paying cash wall, on lord of the rings online I can use either in game currency or turbine points (grinded from deeds for free even) to unlock everything... 

Oh, but Free to Play isn't truly Free, these are Freemiums, designed to be subscription that went free in most cases. 

Truely Free to Play is : Rappelz, Last Chaos, Eden Eternal, and Shaiya Light From Darkness.... along with Browser Facebook apps like : Farmville, Zoo World, Farmville 2, Cityville, Cityville 2, Pioneer Trails, Fish World, Chefville, The Ville, etc... 

Difference is the fact that I didn't have to unlock race/classes in them, or even inventory but I didn't play all that long, or title/helmet graphic turn off like SWToR (who thought of that one?), although they were limited, the items that cost me money were cosmetic decorational fluff and not required in order to play, there is sharing of items on Facebook so all of those game items that cost cash can be given from kind people for free to you via a simple link on Facebook... 

Free is usually terribly limited in class/races/skills/fluff in game, however, they are slowly improving and getting better... Runes of Magic even had a housing system, but they do love to overly advertise you on free/freemiums with gigantic oversized shop icons like you're blind, and ugly character selection screens... In game Advertisements are also lame on Freemiums, but I never had to deal with them on the Free to play that I played... 

Mainly, Freemiums are still pushing Subscriptions, they did not go entirely free, they want to still force subs, with pop-ups that constantly remind you to "Go Gold!!! " . As if anyone needs to be reminded, we all know its an option, as we also know how to find the marketplace, and don't need a huge ugly icon to show us where it is!! 

Only beef I have ever had with Lord of the Rings Online was their ugly character screen and huge LoTRO Store button after Free to Play, when the previous subscription character selection screen had looked pretty and stylish, but I digress.... 

F2P is stupid, it's either unbalanced or content restricted.

I don't play cash-shop games, the end.

Originally posted by SpectralHunter

Originally posted by Foncl

Well it's the same phenomenon that happens with most products in our wear and tear society today. Quality is difficult to sell, most people are very uninformed about the product and only look at the price tag. Free to play looks better on the price tag than pay to play or buy to play so the masses go for free to play and get milked for money further down the road.

I believe the way to stop this trend is by educating gamers about the consequences of free to play on how games are designed, where a clear goal of the developer is to increase cash shop profits.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.  Educate gamers?  Forget that.  Just educate people in general.  If education was done right, our political and financial outlook would be far better.  If we can't get the critical stuff right, there's no hope on the smaller stuff like gaming.

Not going to happen.  People who are actively thoughtful, rather than reactively emotive are *much* more difficult to control and/or manipulate.  Thats why the system is based on indoctrination, rather than education.  Gaming is just one small subset of the actvities involved.

it became ok the very momment the first few people started crying about how they thought it was a con to pay for a subscription plan game..  so we have gone from a measily £10.00 GBP per month to obcene amounts of money required to get any where in todays free to play games.

all i can say is well done  you sulkers you just made games more exspencive to play for us all.

on another note, there is no such thing as free to play games.. your a retard if you think their is..

saying that!!! swg emu is free but then you still need to own an orriginal  install disc for swg which unfortunately costs money. then you pay for your internet  :)

so freemium games are bad always have been always will be and cost more too. you bunch of clever retards that brought this about. cry enough and they will listen. after ofcourse they do some market research into how to make free games proffitable lol.

Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

I'm seeing F2P game after F2P game price gouge the fuck out of "premium services" and "boosters," sometimes for double or tripple the cost of what it would take for a monthly subscription to a P2P game .... when did this becoime ok to do?

 

I guess this is the victory lap F2P beating P2P or something: now that F2P has is clearly winning the battle VS P2P it dosen't have to keep competitive on comparable subscriptions pricing.

 

[mod edit]: the whole reason F2P took off was because it was more accessible and affordable than P2P, shit gets too bad people will just shift back in the other direction ... espacally if going B2P works out for TSW and western P2P holdouts realise that there are other options to stay competitive.

So-called "f2p" was NEVER "more accessible and affordable". Remember, these are businesses and businesses need to make money in order to survive (make a profit). You can not make anything and give it away and expect to make money. Therefore, NEVER assume when someone says something is "free" that they are not going to try to make money.  IMHO, f2p is a very bad marketing ploy that consumers should RUN away from as fast as they can.

Not understanding the 'F2P' hate.

What's the difference between F2P and Extended Trial?

Both doesn't require you to spend money to see what the game is about.

If the player wants to spend money then that's up to the player on how much for how long.

Should a business have a limit on how much money their consumer spends on them? I highly doubt it and really don't see a reason for it.