I'm a LotRO subscriber, and actually, those 10 bucks + 500 cash shop points per month bought me the two last expansions for free and I never spent a dime on cash shop points because you can earn them ingame no problem.

Arguments like "it's the last straw for a dieing game" is BS too, LotRO for example opened up servers and kept them open for more than 12 months now, is freemium for almost three years now and has pumped out their arguably best expansion to date under a full fletched freemium model.

I've been a LotRO subscriber since day 1 and the game is healthier now than it has been since release rush in May 2007 (!!).

If you're not some lunatic with an agenda its plain as day that freemium can be a very healthy payment model while ensuring lasting success.

I agree though that F2P can be screwed up just as any business model. EQ2s F2P or Vanguards F2P models are prime examples, or the BS SWTOR is trying to do at the moment (hindering f2p players so the game is no longer fun, quickbars, XP malus, flashpoint restriction).

The key to gaining and retaining players is make them feel welcome and class A members even if f2p - But make the deal for subscription so good that people just _want_ to be subbers.

M

Originally posted by Phelcher
Free to play games have zero continuity... because the player base is comprised of transients. Who.. might play today.. or who might play another game today.

Yes. And join them and become a transient. You get to play more games than just stuck in one.

For an online world, that type of casualness is a death knell... how does one develope guild continuity, or lasting friendships..?

I don't play games for an online world, or lasting friendship. I have enough friends. I will make an occasional friend online, just to group ... but i don't expect, nor have time for real lastnig friendship anyway. So this is not important to me at all.

Free to play is all about easing the burden on the developer, by cheapeningthe game for instant revenues. Has nothing to do with supporting your game, or facilitating a proper community.

And i don't "support" games. I use entertainment products to have fun.

I recently watched my nephew bounce between 3 different mmos one afternoon. Looking for his friends online...

Or he should just play with his RL friends like my sons, and can hop from games to games.

I logged onto an old EQ account and within 20 minutes got tells from people i hadnt seen in 4 years...

I found it sad that one has to restric oneself to a game, just because of some people. It is much better to play many games, sometimes with same group of RL friends, some with strangers. This idea of one community in just one game is very stricting to me, and not conducive to my idea of fun.

Originally posted by Meridion

Arguments like "it's the last straw for a dieing game" is BS too, LotRO for example opened up servers and kept them open for more than 12 months now, is freemium for almost three years now and has pumped out their arguably best expansion to date under a full fletched freemium model.

But then again Turbine seems to be one of the few who understand how western f2p should be done.

DDO f2p is pure win as well.

Originally posted by NorseGod
I can't afford F2P MMOs.

lol

Originally posted by Meridion
Well these games were once special because they allowed communities to form and thrive... With friendships, rivalry, even love springing from them...

It's the "lol relax just a entertainment product with zero meaning", well, I made MMORPG friends 10 years ago I still go out IRL, one even supported me during an rl crisis...

As long as new releases are entertainment products in line with pong or tv shows MMORPG has lost its initial appeal...

M

MMORPGs have little initial appeal to me. Too much work, too little games, too cumbersome to play.

Now they are much better. And i don't need to go to a game to make friends. I would rather lure a real-life friend (or better, my kids) to play with me in a specific game, instead of the other way around.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Meridion
Well these games were once special because they allowed communities to form and thrive... With friendships, rivalry, even love springing from them...

It's the "lol relax just a entertainment product with zero meaning", well, I made MMORPG friends 10 years ago I still go out IRL, one even supported me during an rl crisis...

As long as new releases are entertainment products in line with pong or tv shows MMORPG has lost its initial appeal...

M

MMORPGs have little initial appeal to me. Too much work, too little games, too cumbersome to play.

Now they are much better. And i don't need to go to a game to make friends. I would rather lure a real-life friend (or better, my kids) to play with me in a specific game, instead of the other way around.

It's the age old basement nerd argument. Don't be silly it's just games if you need games to make friends you probably failed in life anyways...

I won't discuss this because you don't usually get any worthwhile results out of these rants.

But:

The idea of "I get RL friends on to play together" is exactly what "other games" were for back when MMORPGs were MMORPGs. Like Diablo, Diablo 2, Duke Nukem 3D, C&C, Counterstrike 0.6... you name it. I got my friends together, we brought our PCs or met in a lobby and rolled away. There were no strangers in these matches/games and you just had a ton of fun...

That's perfectly okay.

Things get bizarre though when people try to point this out as the all new shiny flavor of MMORPGs. MMORPGs were (and in part are) a place where you can play with your RL friends if you want, god knows i sometimes do, but beyond that allowed you to have a blast with total strangers. 40-man Vanilla WoW raids, merely 10 years ago, were one of the most fun things I've ever done in my gaming life. 40 people on vent, killing, getting killed, laughing... It was never about the grind oder the cumbersome repetitions, at least not for me, MMORPGs were about doing something with lots of people (massive) online...

Nowadays, I install SWTOR and play it as an intermittend moba game. Group finder if necessary, battleground if bloodthirsty, single player game and story as the motivation to log on. I'm playing exactly as if i had a single player game with multiplayer option. And that's where it goes downhill. Because something unique, the MMORPG experience, is consumed by something that's been there since the dawn of the internet, online games.

M

First F2P MMO I've played was in 2003, and I've played quite a lot since until I found 1 to settle in. Never spent any money on those other MMOs. I have however spent money on the F2P game I've settled in, Mabinogi for the curious ones, and have been playing on and off since 2009. I have spent about  $250-300 for what is about the turn into my 5th year in that game. What's more is that I didn't have to buy those items to proceed further into the game, a free player has access to everything from day one. I purchased items because I like what the game offered and I thought I was getting my money's worth (which I did).

I did play P2Ps as well. Amongst many,  there's DarkFall which I've played for almost 2 years and it costed me about the same amount for a single account (I had a total of 3 accounts however, and I'm not even counting those) in ~2 years as Mabinogi costed me in 4-5 years.

There's a pretty good trick to avoid F2Ps that have very expensive/unfair cash shops - Don't play them. You didn't have to spend any money to get the client, you didn't have to spend any money to begin playing. The total amount you've spent to play that game is 0. Move on to a different game. And in the case where a large majority of players don't like the prices or model being used for a F2P title, well sometimes things changes. This is what happened with Allods Online (huge outcry, apparently cash shop is much more tame nowadays) and Vindictus (previously limited amount of dungeon runs players could do per 3 days, has completely been removed since). 

Originally posted by Phelcher


Why even play any mmo if its not to be part of that game world and meet others. Otherwise, it just a game. Like rts.. or batman, or mario bro..

 

AH? Show off gear? Group to play in an instanced?

Can't do any of that playing batman, or mario, or Starcraft (except the instance part .. but no instanced dungeon runs).

Lots of reason to play MMOs .. and not to be part of the game world and meet others.

In fact, i have lots of example of experiences that i cannot get any other way but in a MMO.

For example, there is no modern Star Trek base RPG. If i want to play star trek mission, STO is it ... even if i play it like a single player game.

Originally posted by Meridion

 

It's the age old basement nerd argument. Don't be silly it's just games if you need games to make friends you probably failed in life anyways...

I won't discuss this because you don't usually get any worthwhile results out of these rants.

Let's not get into that. I did NOT make the argumetn. I merely say i do not play games to make friends. If you do, continue to do so. That is just another preference to me .. i won't judge you.

But:

The idea of "I get RL friends on to play together" is exactly what "other games" were for back when MMORPGs were MMORPGs. Like Diablo, Diablo 2, Duke Nukem 3D, C&C, Counterstrike 0.6... you name it. I got my friends together, we brought our PCs or met in a lobby and rolled away. There were no strangers in these matches/games and you just had a ton of fun...

Yes. And i play D3, Borderland and other MP games.

That's perfectly okay.

Things get bizarre though when people try to point this out as the all new shiny flavor of MMORPGs. MMORPGs were (and in part are) a place where you can play with your RL friends if you want, god knows i sometimes do, but beyond that allowed you to have a blast with total strangers. 40-man Vanilla WoW raids, merely 10 years ago, were one of the most fun things I've ever done in my gaming life. 40 people on vent, killing, getting killed, laughing... It was never about the grind oder the cumbersome repetitions, at least not for me, MMORPGs were about doing something with lots of people (massive) online...

There is no reason why MMORPG cannot fill that demand. It is just a MP game where more can be seen in a city. And who says you cannot play with strangers in other online games? People play with strangers every day in D3, LOL, Borderlands, and what-not. MMO has no claim on that.

Actually raids was not too much fun for me .. too much work. When you have to file an application to get into a raiding guild (and i did, and i raid hard mode for a while ... so it is not like i have not been there), it is too much for a game.

Nowadays, I install SWTOR and play it as an intermittend moba game. Group finder if necessary, battleground if bloodthirsty, single player game and story as the motivation to log on. I'm playing exactly as if i had a single player game with multiplayer option. And that's where it goes downhill. Because something unique, the MMORPG experience, is consumed by something that's been there since the dawn of the internet, online games.

Why downhill? If you find a game fun, it is all good. In fact, i play STO exactly the same way. There is no story mission based star trek rpg .. and i can play STO episodes like a SP game .. and a pretty good one at that (the gound battles are a bit less than the best, but the ship battle combat mechanics are a lot of fun .. best in space capital ship combat .. much better than Eve.

And i see it as huge progress. A single game STO .. capture people who want some SP story missions, and also star trek type ship pvp battles.

By my nature I am a competitive gamer and I really hate when someone has an advantage over me. Thus most P2W models absolutely suck for me and I stay away from them.

Free to play is fine and all but its generally not free to play with my mindset. Thus I perfer sub games for the most part.

Some F2P models are fine but the trend is certainly pay to win or pay for convenience.

I am completely fine with pay for content models but there is very few that stick to just that.

Originally posted by zekeofev

By my nature I am a competitive gamer and I really hate when someone has an advantage over me. Thus most P2W models absolutely suck for me and I stay away from them.

 

Free to play is fine and all but its generally not free to play with my mindset. Thus I perfer sub games for the most part.

 

Some F2P models are fine but the trend is certainly pay to win or pay for convenience.

 

I am completely fine with pay for content models but there is very few that stick to just that.

Well, i doubt you can escape p2w in pvp games. However, there is no p2w in pve .. unless you count gear-envy.

Personally, i do mostly pve, so f2p suits me well. And i actually don't mind some p2w. I play PS2 .. and so what if the paying customers have a slightly better sniper rifle faster .. it is not like i am not able to headshot enemies.