Trending Games | Pirate101 | Guild Wars 2 | Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade | World of Warcraft

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,900,169 Users Online:0
Games:751  Posts:6,269,058
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Theme Park Trap

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search
60 posts found
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

12/29/12 9:06:25 PM#21
The comparisons of sandboxes from yesteryear really don't apply to today. There is a much larger MMO fanbase and the themepark games are tired for a lot of them. The proof is on the sales, as the OP showed, where it spiked and then fell. It's not that sandbox is another "side", it's that sandbox elements mixed with themepark ease of play attempt to solve the problem of one month wonders.

How? By making the point of playing more than numbers. By getting the player invested in their avatar more than just how cool it looks or how high it's stats are. By giving the area a player runs around in a point past clusters of quest mobs.

It's still going to be up in the air whether it works as it's on a per game basis. What sandbox aspects a game chooses to embrace will decide how sucessful it is long term. The point is MMOs do a lot better long term and keeping players around is a lot easier with sandbox features.

Good thread OP.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/29/12 9:12:51 PM#22
Originally posted by jimdandy26
He also says that they eat up the content in 90 days and then return to WoW, which is also partially not true...

If you have data to support that, it would be very interesting to see. Most of the migration back and forth wouldn't even register as a blip on WOW's radar, so losing 100k or so and then gaining it back in a few months would barely show up on a graph anywhere.  I'm not saying Ryan is infallible, but he's been in the industry as a game developer and an exec long enough that if he's putting a statement out there like that, it's a safe bet that it's pretty accurate.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

12/29/12 9:18:51 PM#23
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Corehaven

I always thought that if a dev really wanted to retain players they'd simply make an end game with extreme sand box elements.  What else do players typically do anyways?  They run the same dungeons over and over, grind for gear, and pvp since that is typically some of the only options and even those wear thin for some (like me) very quickly.  More is needed.  Much more. 

All I'm saying is they should have their theme park until you reach max level.  Then the sandbox should open up.  Big time.  If that happened most would probably claim, " The real game opens up at max level" and that's fine.  I figure that's a winning formula. 

Hey if devs want to create a sandbox entirely that's fine with me.  But in my mind, if you are going to have a themepark build a sandbox on top of it.  A big one.  With tons of things to do.  The better your end game sand box the longer your players will stick around.  Period. 

Good for revenue, but why on earth would a player want that? If I want sandbox content, I'm going to play a game that has it from the start, especially if I am paying from the start. Why would you want to grind (note: grind is a bad thing) through game play you don't want just to get to the part you do want? Now, before you write that off as lazy, instant gratification or any of the other cute phrases that get tossed around here as the noses turn up in collective proud self-righteousness, really think about that.

 

See, the problem here with your assertion is that it has to be a grind. The term grind itself generally means the content is unfun. You do not like leveling, therefore refer to it as a grind, but a large number of people DO enjoy leveling, as a game designer it makes perfect sense to aim at those players. Just because you do not like a game does not make it bad. Just because there are elements of a game that you do not personally enjoy do not make them bad. It means you do not want them/enjoy them. Considering that it is rather apparent by now that the playerbase prefers themepark to sandbox why would you not incorperate as many themepark elements as you could get away with? As a player do you really want to see "your" game get shut down within a year or two because its not profitable, assuming that they get it launched at all?

 

@Corehaven I do truly wonder where the idea comes from that sandboxes keep players playing. In all of the data I have seen I have yet to see any truth to that statement. Just like the oft repeated "rpers are more faithful to their game". The metrics available simply do not show it. In general I am against the idea that "player generated content" is the future. While some truly amazing things do come from it, the vast majority is garbage, as has been shown by the internet at large. Everywhere you turn, from Youtube, to Deviantart, to Reddit, easily 90% of the content produced is simply terrible, and while there are filters and the like that help curb some of it, a ton still slips through. I will agree that community, players themselves, are content, and that generally speaking sandboxes focus more on player interaction than themeparks do, but its still not a requirement for a sandbox.

 

@Onomas. LOL. Please oh priest of the sandbox god, preach to us your wisdom how the great all mighty sandbox will save us!

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

12/29/12 9:21:53 PM#24

I find it very difficult to judge trends regarding sandboxes because there have been so few released.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Corehaven

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/11
Posts: 1574

I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

12/29/12 9:26:11 PM#25
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Corehaven

I always thought that if a dev really wanted to retain players they'd simply make an end game with extreme sand box elements.  What else do players typically do anyways?  They run the same dungeons over and over, grind for gear, and pvp since that is typically some of the only options and even those wear thin for some (like me) very quickly.  More is needed.  Much more. 

All I'm saying is they should have their theme park until you reach max level.  Then the sandbox should open up.  Big time.  If that happened most would probably claim, " The real game opens up at max level" and that's fine.  I figure that's a winning formula. 

Hey if devs want to create a sandbox entirely that's fine with me.  But in my mind, if you are going to have a themepark build a sandbox on top of it.  A big one.  With tons of things to do.  The better your end game sand box the longer your players will stick around.  Period. 

Good for revenue, but why on earth would a player want that? If I want sandbox content, I'm going to play a game that has it from the start, especially if I am paying from the start. Why would you want to grind (note: grind is a bad thing) through game play you don't want just to get to the part you do want? Now, before you write that off as lazy, instant gratification or any of the other cute phrases that get tossed around here as the noses turn up in collective proud self-righteousness, really think about that.

 

 

Sure but my point is, that's exactly what you are doing in the typical themepark end game.  You are doing dailys, doing PVP, running dungeons and generally desperately trying to find something to do.  It is a sandbox.  After all, the theme park content is done.  You are now at end game. 

 

What I'm saying is give it a solid dose of sandbox elements.  Because what's being done now is a sandbox, just not much of one at all.  I mean they may as well.  Because they're loosing players otherwise.  And why are they loosing players?  Because end game typically sucks.  That's why.  Why does end game typically suck? 

 

The lack of sandbox elements that's why. 

  Jyiiga

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 1024

 
OP  12/29/12 11:44:22 PM#26
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by jimdandy26
He also says that they eat up the content in 90 days and then return to WoW, which is also partially not true...

If you have data to support that, it would be very interesting to see. Most of the migration back and forth wouldn't even register as a blip on WOW's radar, so losing 100k or so and then gaining it back in a few months would barely show up on a graph anywhere.  I'm not saying Ryan is infallible, but he's been in the industry as a game developer and an exec long enough that if he's putting a statement out there like that, it's a safe bet that it's pretty accurate.

Also many of those players never cancel when they try that new game for 60-90 days. So.. those do not show up at all. 

  mindw0rk

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 1366

12/30/12 12:16:46 AM#27

Too bad EVE online is the only MMORPG sandbox that has grown since release. Every single other sandbox, be it Mortal Online or Darkfall, had their population steadily decline

  Boardwalker

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 383

12/30/12 12:31:59 AM#28
Originally posted by Xepo

I love your graphs. I love your premise. Eve has always seemed like an interesting game, but I am one of those gamers where when I am adventuring in the world created for me I really do not want to be ganked repeatedly in an open pvp world. I work a full time job so it is not always doable to find friends to play with to protect me. In the long run I am one of the massive amount of people playing MMOs that just shy away from a game like Eve for little reason than the lack of time to put in the effort to stay safe. A quick in and find something that entertains me for a couple hours (even if it lacks all the elements I really want) works for my lifestyle.

 

 

I also don't have a lot of time to game, yet I'm able to easily avoid getting ganked in EVE. New Eden is a large place; there are some "dark alleys" that you'll want to avoid, for sure, but the mechanics of Concord provide vast stretches of "safe" space for you to play in. I've played for over 6 years and have never been "ganked" in high security space, which is way less than the number of times I've been ganked in the other MMORPGs that I've played.

 

Look me up in game if you're interested in giving EVE another try. I'll help you get started with ISK, equipment, and advice.

They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
Play EVE for free for 21 days

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

12/30/12 12:35:53 AM#29
Originally posted by mindw0rk

Too bad EVE online is the only MMORPG sandbox that has grown since release. Every single other sandbox, be it Mortal Online or Darkfall, had their population steadily decline

 This may be due to the final product more than the potential of the sandbox, or sandbox-ish, design.

  User Deleted
12/30/12 12:47:14 AM#30

The only difference i see with eve and the rest of the games on that list ( well Eq1 i guess) all the games with a high initial spike and then a rapid downtrend...they ALL hyped the living crap out of their games prior to launch.

All were groundbreaking/innovative/ "fixing whats wrong with..." whatever.  Everyone believes marketing people in the gaming community and then they realize its just another game and many leave...right into the arms of another prelaunch marketing man.

 

Eve didnt start hyping untill the game was well developed, EQ...well i dont remember that game being hyped like games today, it was just like "this is EQ...play? (y/n)"  and people who were interested played and stayed.  

 

Also another point i see, is that EQ and EVE both have some serious progression (*gasp* GRIND!!!).  I have a feeling that games that max you out in 3-5 weeks dont build player attachment or pride for what they did, and its easy to just walk away.  Games that take some serious effort to max out...well i have the feeling that a higher percentage will be retained.  Games with a real goal. Lets be honest here, no one would play EVE if you could max out your character in a month, people play because it takes like 12 years to max out all roles. Theres always something for you to improve and it keeps the pvp interesting.  Maxed character pvp in mmorpgs is so boring and predictible.

 

I think hype is the overwhelming cause of those graphs.  

 

But with sandboxes, hard to tell, most want to play those, but then leave when its not remotely polished or finished, and then the indy devs who make them struggle with a 5 man team to fix a game that needs a 200 man team to fix, and forever flounder to rebound (and usually just run out of money and die)

 

 

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

12/30/12 12:59:34 AM#31
Originally posted by Crunchy222

[...] and then the indy devs who make them struggle with a 5 man team to fix a game that needs a 200 man team to fix, and forever flounder to rebound (and usually just run out of money and die)

 

And those are the ones lucky enough to make it to release.  I've run into several Indie devs along the ways.  Great plans, even some exceptionally nice pre-alpha demos.  ... and that's the last we hear of them.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

12/30/12 1:03:59 AM#32
Originally posted by jimdandy26
/snip 

See, the problem here with your assertion is that it has to be a grind. The term grind itself generally means the content is unfun. You do not like leveling, therefore refer to it as a grind, but a large number of people DO enjoy leveling, as a game designer it makes perfect sense to aim at those players. Just because you do not like a game does not make it bad. Just because there are elements of a game that you do not personally enjoy do not make them bad. It means you do not want them/enjoy them. Considering that it is rather apparent by now that the playerbase prefers themepark to sandbox why would you not incorperate as many themepark elements as you could get away with? As a player do you really want to see "your" game get shut down within a year or two because its not profitable, assuming that they get it launched at all?

 

@Corehaven I do truly wonder where the idea comes from that sandboxes keep players playing. In all of the data I have seen I have yet to see any truth to that statement. Just like the oft repeated "rpers are more faithful to their game". The metrics available simply do not show it. In general I am against the idea that "player generated content" is the future. While some truly amazing things do come from it, the vast majority is garbage, as has been shown by the internet at large. Everywhere you turn, from Youtube, to Deviantart, to Reddit, easily 90% of the content produced is simply terrible, and while there are filters and the like that help curb some of it, a ton still slips through. I will agree that community, players themselves, are content, and that generally speaking sandboxes focus more on player interaction than themeparks do, but its still not a requirement for a sandbox.

 

Because the typical themepark design has been profitable? Other than Rift what other game has been able to successfully copy the mold (WoW)? They haven't.  From the moment WoW broke sales records other companies started their bid for riches and 5+ years later found out there is only one WoW.  The only reason there have been so many WoW-like themeparks games is because everyone thought they would have the next WoW 5+ years ago, not because it was a superior design.

 

Let me start off by saying that I don't think a "pure" sandbox game will ever be that popular and I'm not sure many think that either.  I think an MMO that has a lot of sandbox features while offering a fun framework will be very popular though.  Developers making open ended content will get a lot more playability than something pre made to run over, and over, and over.  I'm not saying to take away those things but make half premade content and the other half tools for creation.  The reason player retention could be a lot higher is that the more you do with your avatar(s) the more dedicated you are to them.  Having a character with property, a garden, a house (with crafted items inside) all made by your character holds more weight than just a gear score.

 

It should be pretty obvious that a system that allows players to make or generate their own content is going to last longer than content that is designed by developers, devs# < player#.  You said a lot of it may be garbage but you're missing the point which is being able to make it at all, no matter how horrible it may be.  This of course is tied with how well developed the creation system is to begin with.  In the next year or two we will find out just how poplular sandbox-ish games can be.  You brought up matrics but if you mean the history of sandbox games you can go ahead and throw that right out the window.  The MMO landscape, playerbase and genre as a whole is very different now.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/30/12 1:04:19 AM#33
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Crunchy222

[...] and then the indy devs who make them struggle with a 5 man team to fix a game that needs a 200 man team to fix, and forever flounder to rebound (and usually just run out of money and die)

 

And those are the ones lucky enough to make it to release.  I've run into several Indie devs along the ways.  Great plans, even some exceptionally nice pre-alpha demos.  ... and that's the last we hear of them.

 

I wish they'd develop everything with stick figures and only THEN start pumping mony on graphics.

 

have you seen minecraft graphics ?

 

it proves one thing...graphics matter only for first week(s). your brain naturally simplifies information to process it faster anyway. you dont even notice the graphics mid-combat in a game you played for a few years, even in the shiniest flashiest asian mmo.

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

12/30/12 1:06:37 AM#34
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Crunchy222

[...] and then the indy devs who make them struggle with a 5 man team to fix a game that needs a 200 man team to fix, and forever flounder to rebound (and usually just run out of money and die)

 

And those are the ones lucky enough to make it to release.  I've run into several Indie devs along the ways.  Great plans, even some exceptionally nice pre-alpha demos.  ... and that's the last we hear of them.

 

This is primarily why some people have a misconception that sandboxes are unpopular; simply because there hasn't really been a good one released since EVE.

EQNext may be the first attempt at a sandbox by a major developer in years (assuming it actually IS a sandbox and not just marketing BS from Smedley) so I reckon that will be the time to finally see how a proper sandbox is received by the modern MMO audience.

In the meantime I'm glad to see a lot of games are starting to adopt more (if minor) sandboxy elements.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/30/12 5:03:55 AM#35
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Crunchy222

[...] and then the indy devs who make them struggle with a 5 man team to fix a game that needs a 200 man team to fix, and forever flounder to rebound (and usually just run out of money and die)

And those are the ones lucky enough to make it to release.  I've run into several Indie devs along the ways.  Great plans, even some exceptionally nice pre-alpha demos.  ... and that's the last we hear of them.

That's because even the crappiest of ideas can look good on paper. Implementation and execution are a very different story.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/30/12 5:06:26 AM#36
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Corehaven

I always thought that if a dev really wanted to retain players they'd simply make an end game with extreme sand box elements.  What else do players typically do anyways?  They run the same dungeons over and over, grind for gear, and pvp since that is typically some of the only options and even those wear thin for some (like me) very quickly.  More is needed.  Much more. 

All I'm saying is they should have their theme park until you reach max level.  Then the sandbox should open up.  Big time.  If that happened most would probably claim, " The real game opens up at max level" and that's fine.  I figure that's a winning formula. 

Hey if devs want to create a sandbox entirely that's fine with me.  But in my mind, if you are going to have a themepark build a sandbox on top of it.  A big one.  With tons of things to do.  The better your end game sand box the longer your players will stick around.  Period. 

Good for revenue, but why on earth would a player want that? If I want sandbox content, I'm going to play a game that has it from the start, especially if I am paying from the start. Why would you want to grind (note: grind is a bad thing) through game play you don't want just to get to the part you do want? Now, before you write that off as lazy, instant gratification or any of the other cute phrases that get tossed around here as the noses turn up in collective proud self-righteousness, really think about that.

 

See, the problem here with your assertion is that it has to be a grind. The term grind itself generally means the content is unfun. You do not like leveling, therefore refer to it as a grind, but a large number of people DO enjoy leveling, as a game designer it makes perfect sense to aim at those players. Just because you do not like a game does not make it bad. Just because there are elements of a game that you do not personally enjoy do not make them bad. It means you do not want them/enjoy them. Considering that it is rather apparent by now that the playerbase prefers themepark to sandbox why would you not incorperate as many themepark elements as you could get away with? As a player do you really want to see "your" game get shut down within a year or two because its not profitable, assuming that they get it launched at all?

That is some truly unique thinking, and I guess if your goal was to make Kitchen Sink Online, that would be a decent philosophy to build it with.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/30/12 5:17:02 AM#37
Originally posted by Crunchy222

The only difference i see with eve and the rest of the games on that list ( well Eq1 i guess) all the games with a high initial spike and then a rapid downtrend...they ALL hyped the living crap out of their games prior to launch.

All were groundbreaking/innovative/ "fixing whats wrong with..." whatever.  Everyone believes marketing people in the gaming community and then they realize its just another game and many leave...right into the arms of another prelaunch marketing man.

....

I think hype is the overwhelming cause of those graphs.  

Agreed. Selling the pre-order and getting as many in on Day One is a definite goal for many companies, or at least certain departments/boards within the company. It's an unwinnable war. The group that drives that isn't responsible for the fallout afterwards because they've left and moved on to sell the next game for someone else, with the big numbers from the previous game padding out their CV.  Rift, AION, SWTOR... Look at the marketing teams for any MMO where there was the massive spike at release. The hype, sell, move to next game release.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1931

12/30/12 6:38:24 AM#38

Since you make wow an exception from your chart.  Maybe you should make Eve an exception from your chart too.

Show me a chart of the other sandbox game, I dont' think it look good too.

And you know what about the Eve clone, or propetuus or whatever it's name is?  It is not successful too.

People been saying how popular DayZ is, and if some mmorpg use that model it'll be popular.  I'm still waiting for WarZ to be successful.

And you know what?  There isn't much sandbox game on the market.  Why isn't the few sandbox game on the market more popular?  Why dont' Eve have more subscriber?  It is weird it being the only few sandbox game on the market and really the population isn't that great.

Now I don't care about themepark game or sandbox game.  All I can say is nothing is proven until it is proven.  I with sandbox game the best.  And hope WarZ will turn out great.  And Archage online will dominate like other people say it will.  But that is remain to be seen.

 

  Sukiyaki

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 1310

12/30/12 12:09:55 PM#39

Where do these charts even come from?

They look very much like directly ripped out of mmodata.net / mmogchart.com

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13580

12/30/12 12:15:47 PM#40
It's not a theme park versus sandbox thing.  It's a "heavily hyped game that didn't live up to the hype" versus "game that did live up to the hype, largely because it didn't have much when it launched" thing.
3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search