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General Discussion  » tab-combat or action combat?

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78 posts found
  AvsRock21

Novice Member

Joined: 7/26/10
Posts: 262

1/17/13 12:17:57 AM#41

Some of you are acting like action based combat is better than tab target, or that action based combat is the next evolutionary step for mmorpgs. Neither of those ideas are true. Tab targeting games and action based games are just two different types of games. Some people prefer a more strategical, chess-like experience in their mmorpgs and therefore they prefer tab targeting. Others want a reflex and twitch based action game. Some people want their twitch 'skills' to determine if they hit their target, while others want their attributes to determine their effectiveness. You can't just say that one is better than the other... I like both. I get the itch for both types of games and if there were only 'action' based mmorpgs, that would suck. 

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

1/17/13 12:25:04 AM#42
Originally posted by AvsRock21

Some of you are acting like action based combat is better than tab target, or that action based combat is the next evolutionary step for mmorpgs. Neither of those ideas are true. Tab targeting games and action based games are just two different types of games. Some people prefer a more strategical, chess-like experience in their mmorpgs and therefore they prefer tab targeting. Others want a reflex and twitch based action game. Some people want their twitch 'skills' to determine if they hit their target, while others want their attributes to determine their effectiveness. You can't just say that one is better than the other... I like both. I get the itch for both types of games and if there was only 'action' based mmorpgs, that would suck. 

Its actually laughable that people consider action MMORPGs the future.  Attribute based combat is the very core of the genre.  Twitch has its place as an offshoot, but I really dont think it meshes well with the genre.  MMORPGs are typically played for long stretches of time, couple hours or more.  At that point twitch becomes far more repetitive and tedious than the more startegic variant.

 

The worst of both worlds though is the GCDfest games we are inundated with.  They are overly busy and while usually need good decison making to excel at, it just gets tedious over time when you click an ability every 1.5 seconds.

Rift is by far the biggest offender of this, but there are many bad offenders.

  kdchan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 240

1/17/13 4:39:59 AM#43

I was very interested in this game because i like sandboxes, but i read that the combat will probably be the same wow TAB-RNG targeting crap so i lose a large amount of interest.

I personally think that TAB targeting games are the past and not the future, TAB, 1,2,3,4,5,6, and repeat is a stupid and brainless gameplay. At least they can go with a system like GW2 with autotargeting.

But a thing is for sure, if they go for the classic RNG TAB,1,2,3 i will 100% not play this game, and this is the main reason i didn't partecipated in kickstarter.
I will never support mmorpgs and companies that use an outdated and lazy combat, we are in 2013 with ADSL and optical fiber, is time for an innovation, is time to leave the stagnation to the past.
I want true player skills, dodge, dash and use the terrain to hide myself, just spamming buttons in front of each other is just....ridiculous and belong to delusional games like wow and clones.

If games likes Darkfall, Tera, Raiderz, Blade & Soul (and in part GW2) can do this without any issue i don't see how Goblinworks can't do the same, or at least try to make an hybrid a la GW2.
If they can't then it mean they lack experience and network coding.

Is not a matter of lag and bandwidth, because the games i mentioned before can handle tons of massive players in the same area without any evident server lag (graphic lag is another matter but fixable with lowering video settings).
I was partecipating in Darkfall sieges in the past, early 2009, no lags and they use a pure FPS action combat and was only 2009, now we are in 2013.

I tend to not trust companies when they claim that the actual technology isn't enought, these games prove the countrary so is a blatant lie to cover the lacks of experience.

I pass for now, at least till i see an actual 100% game footage where i can taste their combat system and how it work. But as i said before if they go with RNG TAB,1,2,3,4,5,6 i will never touch their game.

ps: For the same reason i will never play ArcheAge too.

Plan to play
The Repopulation | Peria Chronicles | Tree of Saviour

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

1/17/13 7:19:57 AM#44
Originally posted by kdchan

I was very interested in this game because i like sandboxes, but i read that the combat will probably be the same wow TAB-RNG targeting crap so i lose a large amount of interest.

I personally think that TAB targeting games are the past and not the future, TAB, 1,2,3,4,5,6, and repeat is a stupid and brainless gameplay. At least they can go with a system like GW2 with autotargeting.

But a thing is for sure, if they go for the classic RNG TAB,1,2,3 i will 100% not play this game, and this is the main reason i didn't partecipated in kickstarter.
I will never support mmorpgs and companies that use an outdated and lazy combat, we are in 2013 with ADSL and optical fiber, is time for an innovation, is time to leave the stagnation to the past.
I want true player skills, dodge, dash and use the terrain to hide myself, just spamming buttons in front of each other is just....ridiculous and belong to delusional games like wow and clones.

If games likes Darkfall, Tera, Raiderz, Blade & Soul (and in part GW2) can do this without any issue i don't see how Goblinworks can't do the same, or at least try to make an hybrid a la GW2.
If they can't then it mean they lack experience and network coding.

Is not a matter of lag and bandwidth, because the games i mentioned before can handle tons of massive players in the same area without any evident server lag (graphic lag is another matter but fixable with lowering video settings).
I was partecipating in Darkfall sieges in the past, early 2009, no lags and they use a pure FPS action combat and was only 2009, now we are in 2013.

I tend to not trust companies when they claim that the actual technology isn't enought, these games prove the countrary so is a blatant lie to cover the lacks of experience.

I pass for now, at least till i see an actual 100% game footage where i can taste their combat system and how it work. But as i said before if they go with RNG TAB,1,2,3,4,5,6 i will never touch their game.

ps: For the same reason i will never play ArcheAge too.

Some great stuff to ponder here. There's a huge range of factors that are input into the design of the combat, from what market of players you are aiming for, to how much emphasis you want/need combat to be and as above tech considerations and UI etc.

I'm equally disinterested in the ye samey olde tab-target. I think GW2 did some interesting things to make combat more actiony/dynamic. But I also think PFO can actually go the other way and make combat slower and more tactical. That would be equally good to see imo. How? No idea.

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

1/18/13 12:16:14 AM#45


Originally posted by Nemesis7884
and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future


funny, I feel the same way, only I feel any Tera style mmo release in the future will fail. horrible, boring and repetitive mechanic. adds nothing to the genre imo.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  Niburu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 349

1/18/13 2:51:03 AM#46
how can idelete post
  tyfon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/09
Posts: 237

1/18/13 3:16:45 AM#47
Originally posted by Nemesis7884

and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future

For me it's the opposite. I need a non-twich targeting system since I am no longer 18 with lightning reflexes. I'm also suffering from CTS and havint to use the mouse all the time can be painfull. I'm also struggeling with games where you clickmove like Titan Quest and Diablo. In any case the latency in MMOs are never high enough to enable FPS style targeting properly. It was one of the reasons I thought TERA sucked (except for the bad quests).

RPGs has always been about the numbers and systems for me too, not who has the fastest mouse hand. 

 

 

EDIT: I'm not really fond of the tabbing mechanic, but most new games have auto target selection anyway. However a working tab functionallity is also nice as an addition. Most games handle this hybrid, the only one I can think of that fails horribly in this is GW2 where tabbing often gives you the target furthest away.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

1/18/13 3:26:14 AM#48
Originally posted by MumboJumbo
 But I also think PFO can actually go the other way and make combat slower and more tactical. That would be equally good to see imo. How? No idea.

This would be the smarter move.  The action combat crowd really isnt that big, its the 'wanting something different crowd' thats big.  As Ive said, its not the tab targeting thats the issue, its the gcd spam system thats the issue.

No game is as simple as 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4.  If anyone thinks that then they are awful at games.  But it does become quite often a click...click...click...click...click...click...click... rhythm which just fees mindless.  Oh sure, theres the occasional off gcd interrupt or chain attack to toss in, but its mostly just pressing a key every 1.5 seconds.

More strategic combat satisfies the people that want a change but doesnt alienate the RPG crowd with unwanted twitch.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2407

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

1/18/13 3:36:53 AM#49
Originally posted by Nemesis7884

and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future

Because Tera is such HUGE success...

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  Pocahinha

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/09
Posts: 570

1/18/13 3:43:28 AM#50
Originally posted by Nemesis7884

and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future

In my opinion and from millions of mmorpg players...tab target combat in an mmorpg is the way we like it, i tried both and really dislike action combat like tera, gw2 is nice but tab combat is my favorite....ofcorse it must be made perfect like wow did...not like swtor and other crap.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2840

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/18/13 3:48:13 AM#51
Originally posted by Nemesis7884

and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future

While I don't express the same views I can echo the sentiment. 

 

It's not out of the realm of impossiblity to implement some sort of fast action style combat with active dodge or blocking and tactical skillful combat.  It doesn't necessarily need to be reticule based action combat like Tera but it needs to be something mnore innovative other then the bland and boring tab target WoW combat.  Standing face to face trading blows with mobs has got to be the worst possible implementation of a combat system in all of history.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  BlueMountain

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/06
Posts: 140

Lo, the mighty Oak.

Just a little nut who stood his ground.

1/18/13 11:50:43 AM#52

I'm really puzzled that people are raging about tab-targeting in PFO when nobody knows yet if there will be tab targetting in PFO or not.

I'll wait to try it before forming a judgement. They are to release a solo melee combat client in the Autumn. Might even be this year.

To dream, perhaps to be.

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

1/18/13 1:09:07 PM#53
Originally posted by BlueMountain

I'm really puzzled that people are raging about tab-targeting in PFO when nobody knows yet if there will be tab targetting in PFO or not.

I'll wait to try it before forming a judgement. They are to release a solo melee combat client in the Autumn. Might even be this year.

A couple of reasons:

1) Combat IS undeniably a core feature, so even a crumb of info will light more than a few discussions.

2) Archage on a budget of 25$m or so, has some sandbox features but seems to be fairly "tradtional mmorpg" combat and there was a thread on that that sparked a lot of discussion despite the tons of skills available to skill-up. It seems that for a sandbox mmorpg, there will inevtiably be trade-offs to create all the systems, hence combat likely not being especially innovative possibility/disappointment?

If PFO is attempting to have mass combat, then that puts pressure on the design choices/constraints available for the combat, also.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7286

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

1/18/13 1:57:25 PM#54

DCUO has tab-ish style combat,  yet it is still THE BEST combat I've ever seen in an MMO.   Tab combat doesn't necessarily mean action-less.  

Macro-able hotbar combat is what gets repetitive and unfun...    the option of how to select your target has very little to do with the actual style, depth, and pace of the combat.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  mazut

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/23/08
Posts: 839

1/22/13 3:18:35 AM#55
Originally posted by Nemesis7884

and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future

Beleave me, any combat better then TSW with decent story and well made world will be played ;)

  Pivotelite

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 2195

1/22/13 3:25:42 AM#56
Originally posted by Scalpless
I really don't see what the targeting method has to do with combat being action-y or not. For example, do you know what GW2's targeting method is quite similar to? Devil May Cry's targeting. DMC is the epitome of crazy, player skill -focused action and it uses an automatic targeting system, because aiming is simply not important in a game like that. It's not important in TERA, either, because you'd have to be blind not to hit that game's slow-moving monsters that cover half of your screen.

  You have to play level 60 HM dungeons or PvP to understand TERAs combat. Fighting a fat Kumas at level 22 means nothing, sadly thats about the most that most people experience with regards to TERA before blowing it off.

 

Regardless, even then, a slow ass Kumas is still more involved than WoW for example. WoW I fight a mob, it hits me I hit it, theres no exception, you stand still both hitting each other constantly....well it doesn't even feel like you're hitting them.

 

TERA you can dodge so that you never get hit and you can position behind them for more damage, which involves constant movement and actual thinking, regardless of how slow the Kumas is, on top of that you're attacks have weight behind them.

 

Not to mention unlike games like GW2 or WoW, there's very little passive heal regeneration in TERA...so...making mistakes and getting hit will eventually kill you.

  JimmyYO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 541

1/22/13 3:27:35 AM#57
There is nothing unique about action style combat. Either way you're getting the "same ol" rehashed combat in one form or another. I rather the game stay as true to pathfinder as humanly possible, the game millions love. Unless you want to make a D&D abomination otherwise known is DDO. Lets do it right this time.
  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4305

1/22/13 3:33:36 AM#58

I like fps style combat in my mmorpgs.. Darkfall, Mortal online.. that type of combat..

Saying that i dont mind tab target combat if the game is done right..

Didnt enjoy the combat in GW2 as it was basically just a tab target system, didnt enjoy tera combat because it stopped you moving every time you attacked..

 

Tab target games I enjoyed.. SWG, EQ1 + 2..

 

Also enjoyed the system AOC used, shame they didnt use it in TSW..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  Divona

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/11
Posts: 168

1/22/13 3:55:11 AM#59
I prefer tab-target so I can typing in chat box while in combat, discussing the strategy. I also can eat snack or drink on one hand while in combat. It's much more relaxing and much more suitable to my playstyle. Just like back in the pen and paper table top gaming day.
  Requiamer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 2054

1/22/13 4:00:05 AM#60
This thread seam a bit stupid imo (no offence op), PO isn't a usual mmo that is build from scratch, they will use their pathfinder combat system, and i don't see why they should do otherwise, same for "will it be trinity based or not?", they will just use and port pathfinder systems. I sure hope that's what they plan anyway, and i'm pretty confident they called the game PO for that reason too.
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