Originally posted by Havok2all

Tab Targeting has just been done the same way over the series of released games the past few years. That does not mean tab targeting can not be expanded and utilized in all new ways to provide a more robust and innovative form of combat. The tab targeting concept isn't the problem, its the lack of imagination in its utilization that is the problem.

This seems to be a problem ,lack of imagination, in all MMOs lately.

I think there is something to be said for this. There's some further details being considered in the desing choices: For eg in terms of what weapons and items are slotted and used is a massive consideration.

Has anyone looked at MtG system? Eg:

1) Selection of deck in 1st place

2) Emergent choice of selection of cards to use depending on opponent

3) Resource control eg mana

-

So similar ideas can apply to tab-target imo?

==

@All:

Good discussion: Talk about throwing the dictionary in. :)

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future

that is your very personal opinion, i get it. That doesnt mean it is true. And, if that was true then it would be even more true that any mmo coming out without Dynamic events will fail too. Which is also not completely true.

Look how good Tera is doing with its "true action combat". 

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

the problem is, action combat games - such as tera, often get the combat right but everything else wrong while with tab target games its the other way around, and i fail to understand why its so damn hard to do it right...

and if archeage is being released 2014, 2015, 2020 or any time has yet to be seen after the 346th beta...

True^. As said, I am most concerned how combat will work in pathfinder online atm. The other systems and features are very cool so far discussed:

https://goblinworks.com/blog/

Edit: Tbh: Archage combat really puts me off that mmorpg... anything you can add to that?

gw2 is in my opinion also tab target combat, just packaged in a more interesting way...but it still gets old, fast

i might be wrong but my understanding and whhttp://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/719/view/forums/post/5481593/postAction/editat i mean is

tab target combat = target locks, attacks follow and hit you, evasion is at best a dice throw, no skill shots, no active dodging, auto lock on targets, combat rotations etc. etc.

action combat is skill shot based with actively aiming and dodging - yeah gw2 has some kind of dodge, imo it is still rather tab target combat since you dont have to aim and shots hit follow you automatically

i have to say tough, but this is off topic, what keeps me slightly interested in the game is the art style and the details to the characters

besides, as said, i think tera did the combat right, but everything else wrong...besides, theyre not doing so bad, last i heard they had over 1m subscribers worldwide mid this year

i mean, just look at a game like mount & blade, how much success it has altough pretty much everything speaks against it - no story, crappy graphics, hardly any features - why is that, why does it have so many follow ups? cause the combat is just damn great (and m&b's combat isnt even done that well cause its pretty clunky and unresponsive)

***

regarding archeage, i have a friend who was in beta 4 and 5, i played a little, i can tell you a few things

- the combat system is very very classic tab targeting - aka world of warcraft style

- the skill system is interesting as it lets you choose several decks (3) to select skills from, so its somewhat open

- all the open world features such as housing are highly exaggerated in the sense that i think people believe its way better than it actually is...cause you got just fields with a bazillion of the same small houses on them...so...

- there are some neat features to the game, sea fights etc. are great and everything...i just think a open world pvp system NEEDS a good engaging combat system more than anything else...i have the same issue with archeage that i had with tsw - fantastic game but really boring boring combat system...cause after a pretty short time (shorter than many people believe) you will have seen all the open world features in archeage, and what stays is the pvp combat...and that simply isnt that good...darkfall for example was way better in that regard (but worse with most other things)

so i guess it depends what youre looking for...i either know people that think archeage is really boring or fantastic, im rather in the first group...i think if you like a game like darkfall, you will not like archeage and if youre rather the "slow builder" type of player who likes eve or likes games like 4x games (that might sound weird), you will like archeage...because its more about exploring and building than fast combat...

but for me, the combat is just not engaging enough that i would want to heavily inves time into the game...besides the fact that there are some serious community issues in the game

*** i also got this response from goblin works:

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

action combat is skill shot based with actively aiming and dodging - yeah gw2 has some kind of dodge, imo it is still rather tab target combat since you dont have to aim and shots hit follow you automatically

But they don't follow you. If someone fires an arrow and you walk off its path, it won't hit you. The only difference between GW2 and TERA in this regard is that you don't have to aim in GW2.

Anyway, based on what I've read about this game, its combat will be a bit less action-focused than GW2's. I don't even expect to see an active dodge, although it does look like they took some notes from the way GW2 does things, so it's still possible. Of course, for a game based on D&D, dice rolls are an expected "feature" and I'm sure they'd piss some members of their target audience off if they made this game too twitch-focused.

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future

Exactly

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

gw2 is in my opinion also tab target combat, just packaged in a more interesting way...but it still gets old, fast

i might be wrong but my understanding and whhttp://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/719/view/forums/post/5481593/postAction/editat i mean is

tab target combat = target locks, attacks follow and hit you, evasion is at best a dice throw, no skill shots, no active dodging, auto lock on targets, combat rotations etc. etc.

action combat is skill shot based with actively aiming and dodging - yeah gw2 has some kind of dodge, imo it is still rather tab target combat since you dont have to aim and shots hit follow you automatically

 

Going a little off topic here, but:

By your definition GW2 actually does not have "tab targetting combat".

Attacks do not follow you.  This is one of the downsides of high range / slow projectile weapons like Elementalist's Staff Fireball and Ranger Longbow and Shortbow.  Simply strafing from far range will avoid the majority of the attacks damage even with the projectile speed buffs in the last patch.  You can also easily get out of range of a projectile or obstruct it when it's mid flight.  You can also block projectiles aimed at others by standing in the path of it or using absorption / reflect skills.

Evasion is not a dice roll either.  You have the dodge which will evade all damage during it's animation and the only other way to make an enemy outright miss an attack that would have normally hit is through the blind condition.  There are no dice roll misses in GW2.

No skill shots?  While there are no direct damage skill shots in the game there are plenty of ground targetted AoEs, and it's possible to play a Grenade Engineer and essentially play a class based slowly on "skill shots".  Considering the travel time of grenades and the high mobility of professions in GW2 it's very difficult and requires a lot of skill to play against moving targets as a Grenade Kit Engineer (in PvP).

There are also no set combat rotations in GW2, advanced play pretty much requires you to use skills and dodge at the appropriate time.  Trying to create a set rotation in GW2 might work in solo PvE, but it would be highly ineffective any PvP mode and high level group PvE.

Still, by definition GW2 is a tab targetting MMO because it has direct targetting with the tab key.  There really isn't anything more to the definition than that.  GW2 is also an action oriented combat MMO too, it can be both.

On topic:

I'm also a bit upset that Pathfinder Online seems to be going with a slower paced more traditional MMO combat system, albeit with a few changes here and there.  Slower paced isn't necessarily bad (I enjoyed Pirates 101 tactics esque combat system), but the combat doesn't seem to be radically different from what we've been seeing in MMOs until all but recently, and I'm frankly just sick of that style of combat.  I'm still keeping watch on the game as there are a lot of features that sound like they might be pretty neat (I even backed the Kickstarter), but the combat right now is a huge deterent to me at least with the current information about it out there.

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

-snip-

regarding archeage, i have a friend who was in beta 4 and 5, i played a little, i can tell you a few things

- the combat system is very very classic tab targeting - aka world of warcraft style

- the skill system is interesting as it lets you choose several decks (3) to select skills from, so its somewhat open

- all the open world features such as housing are highly exaggerated in the sense that i think people believe its way better than it actually is...cause you got just fields with a bazillion of the same small houses on them...so...

- there are some neat features to the game, sea fights etc. are great and everything...i just think a open world pvp system NEEDS a good engaging combat system more than anything else...i have the same issue with archeage that i had with tsw - fantastic game but really boring boring combat system...cause after a pretty short time (shorter than many people believe) you will have seen all the open world features in archeage, and what stays is the pvp combat...and that simply isnt that good...darkfall for example was way better in that regard (but worse with most other things)

so i guess it depends what youre looking for...i either know people that think archeage is really boring or fantastic, im rather in the first group...i think if you like a game like darkfall, you will not like archeage and if youre rather the "slow builder" type of player who likes eve or likes games like 4x games (that might sound weird), you will like archeage...because its more about exploring and building than fast combat...

but for me, the combat is just not engaging enough that i would want to heavily inves time into the game...besides the fact that there are some serious community issues in the game

*** i also got this response from goblin works:

Hi Nemisis7884,

For a lot of reasons, the combat system will not be player-twitch-skill based. It will be more complex than target - hit macros, but you won't be aiming.

whatever the reasons are...not going to be my game than, this type of combat is just to boring for me...but everyone else, i hope the project is a success and youre having fun

Thanks a lot for your impressions of AA's combat. Think I agree with you on that. But I don't agree that it's a black and white Twitch = good, Tab-target = bad dichotomy. Perhaps what we've had of Tab-target:

1. Too stale by now

2. Too similar to other combat systems

3. IMO: Neither that strategic nor that dynamic.

=

I'm fine with pathfinder online not being twitch and if it's got a lot of strategy/depth to it, it will be a better combat than a mmo-twitch also I hazard saying. 1. Tons and tons of contexts 2. Personally slowing combat down so thinking time can be had 3. Body target in the UI for decision-making strategy eg block-avoid-damage-disable-counter etc... But I will be disappointed if the combat is tab-target and feels identical to other tab-target mmorpgs. No question.

Originally posted by Scalpless

Of course, for a game based on D&D, dice rolls are an expected "feature" and I'm sure they'd piss some members of their target audience off if they made this game too twitch-focused.

Exactly, as that link I provided above for DPS - complex and interesting and different appeals to these "members". And I agree with that.

Originally posted by Magnum2103

I'm also a bit upset that Pathfinder Online seems to be going with a slower paced more traditional MMO combat system, albeit with a few changes here and there.  Slower paced isn't necessarily bad (I enjoyed Pirates 101 tactics esque combat system), but the combat doesn't seem to be radically different from what we've been seeing in MMOs until all but recently, and I'm frankly just sick of that style of combat.  I'm still keeping watch on the game as there are a lot of features that sound like they might be pretty neat (I even backed the Kickstarter), but the combat right now is a huge deterent to me at least with the current information about it out there.

 Yes, on balance the spread of features is impressive. Combat if good would a jewel in the crown - is the context I see it. But agree with highlighted vehemently.

I'd be more inclined to consider the game's turn-based origin. I mean the classic  neverwinter nights (bioware's version) used a straight forward point and click auto attack, with a hot bar for spells.

Maybe some kind of hybrid function between tab target and point and click would work. At the end of the day it's the spells/abilities/feats/skills of your character that count, not how targetting is handled.

The key point here is the turn based aspect, plus add in the demographic the title is going to appeal to (I'm fairly sure it isn't going to appeal to the twitch-brigade).

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

 

no action combat, no future

The question is being argued out in the GW section of the paizo forums.

Two days and 144 posts later it is still raging over there. The head honcho is of the opinion that 'tab targetting has been done to death', so maybe there is reason to hope.

Right now the discussion is mostly about projectile fire and how the target is in motion so you should have to lead your target.

One big server like Eve...  I think having to lead a target would just have all kinds of latency issues.

They should just keep it simple.. and deliver what they say.  Don't bite off too much. 

Originally posted by torque12
I hope they take some inspirations from Dark Souls. Not the parry/dodge twitchy aspects, but stamina and blocking system.

I've heard that is good, They have design for a stamina system: A Three-Headed Hydra > Stamina and Refresh

I think you could approach targetting rather differently than is common, even using traditional tab or auto target acquisition methodologies.

When the player focuses on a target, instead of making all attacks strike that target alone no matter the actual facing of the character, you might just build it so that the character is always facing the target at the distance optimal to the weaponry being used (in the case of melee, or within optimal range for projectile weaponry or ranged spellcasting. Proximity-based spells should be treated as melee weaponry. The player could manually dodge back out of optimal range but would stride back asap. A lateral dodge would still describe are arc around the target, and a strafe would also arc around the target while keeping the autofacing orientation unless the player specifically used, say, the right&ctrl key to suspend autofacing.

Character collisions should be effective, such that if I try to doge laterally but another player, monster, or wall is in the way I would not dodge effectively. I would be blocked from that dodge attempt.

The damage, in the case of melee, should depend on attack type: slashes/bashes are a local cone damage. Thrusts should be target-specific, but may inadvertantly strike anyone jumping into the way.

Pole arms would target similarly, but with a longer arc or range.

Any thoughts?

There are combat systems where the challenge comes from the players ability to manipulate the interface....

.... and there are game systems whether the challenge comes from the players ability to make good decisions...

PFO is aiming for (and hopefully will achieve) the latter. Which is something I support and something which is in better keeping with the spirit of the PnP ruleset which it is based upon.

Tab-Targeting is simply a descriptive of the type of GUI that would be utilized, it isn't descriptive of how interesting/uninteresting the combat system may be. Heck it isn't even neccesarly descriptive of how "action-y" a game might be.

Ultimately there are alot of different factors that go into whether a combat system is decent or not.

I've played FPS style games...I enjoy them.

I've played Mount & Blade and I enjoyed it.

I've played Skyrim and enjoyed it.

But I'm definately looking forward to PFO having a more tactical then action-based combat system.

From Goblinworks:

"We're working on a Stamina system that somewhat mimics the rounds of the Pathfinder RPG. Every six seconds, players will receive a pool of points they'll be able to spend taking various actions, breaking down combat into a number of tactical decisions.

Players who plan out their attacks to maximize their abilities in terms of Stamina will be better off than those who rely on straight speed to spam abilities as quickly as possible. The "planning player" will end each six second interval with no excess Stamina, while the "spamming player" will end up with unused points in their pool."

Originally posted by Nemesis7884

devs see all these same same mmos fail and what do they do? come up with the exact same shit...

how was that again, the definition of insanitys is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results...

Not sure I follow you... if there have been two successful MMOs, it would be WOW and EVE..  and even Eve has basically tab targeting.  You also have games like AOC (which failed) that has a hybrid system.

As many clicky  MMO´s have failed as have tab MMOs.   and the two most successful have tab-targeting.  you lose your argument.

Originally posted by BlueMountain

From Goblinworks:

"We're working on a Stamina system that somewhat mimics the rounds of the Pathfinder RPG. Every six seconds, players will receive a pool of points they'll be able to spend taking various actions, breaking down combat into a number of tactical decisions.

Players who plan out their attacks to maximize their abilities in terms of Stamina will be better off than those who rely on straight speed to spam abilities as quickly as possible. The "planning player" will end each six second interval with no excess Stamina, while the "spamming player" will end up with unused points in their pool."

 

I read that and it sounds really cool.  Not sure where it falls into this discussion.   I think most people see the difference between tab and action-style being simple  ´ can I use my characters movement to avoid attacks´.. or is the ´to hit´ part of combat completely controlled by a dice roll.

How you actually generate your attacks isn´t pertinant.  Some of the classes in Diablo have exactly the stamina system and it is an action game.   A lot of specs in WOW have a similar system (hunters, rogues) and it is very definitely a tab game.

I like both.  Tab target allows for more thought to go into the skills used, Action based aim targeting more of your focus is keeping crosshairs on the target.

I like both.  But to be honest, i want both.

Tera kind of did this where it was free look aim, but once you aimed near a target, it kind of became tabbed. Unless im completely forgetting how it worked.

Either way ill support the game.  A game like this is content over cheap actiony feel.  If it goes player aimed combat, thats fine...just be careful with it, i dont want some damn quake style combat...

Also, air target combat brings in TONS of FPS players who hate RPG's.  Youll get lots of post stating that pvp should be "skill based and fair" and petitions to remove progression and any form of combat that isnt 10% fair and predictable...just sayin...

I prefer my combat to be a bit more stategic, kinda like EVE, but with actual movement and land objects/LOS and stuff like that. If i want a pure action game ill go play one that will do it better than any mmo can do.  

Keep it strategy based combat, make it fun, hell give us free look camera and semi-aim targeting.  Dont go full retard with FPS combat.