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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Much of the MMO gameplay is not massive

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

 
OP  12/27/12 5:59:26 PM#1

small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....)

arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3)

raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles)

and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests.

In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH.

So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.

 

  danwest58

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 597

12/27/12 6:10:50 PM#2
Originally posted by nariusseldon

small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....)

arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3)

raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles)

and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests.

In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH.

So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.

 

The Point of an MMO is to play on a server with thousands of other people not to have massive groups.  You can complain about 25 or 40 mans being small.  The problem is not that the raids are hards, its near impossible to get 40 people to a raid.  Back when I ran 40 man raids we had to have 70+ people on everynight we raided just so we had enough of certain classes.  

 

Sorry this is a pointless post talking about how MMOs are not Massive.

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/27/12 6:11:58 PM#3


Originally posted by danwest58

Originally posted by nariusseldon small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....) arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3) raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles) and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests. In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH. So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.  
The Point of an MMO is to play on a server with thousands of other people not to have massive groups.  You can complain about 25 or 40 mans being small.  The problem is not that the raids are hards, its near impossible to get 40 people to a raid.  Back when I ran 40 man raids we had to have 70+ people on everynight we raided just so we had enough of certain classes.  

 

Sorry this is a pointless post talking about how MMOs are not Massive.




The game can be massive, even if the groups you are in are not massive. The number of interactions going on can be massive as well, especially if you have a global auction house or something similar.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Rohn

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3758

12/27/12 6:14:39 PM#4
Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by nariusseldon

small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....)

arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3)

raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles)

and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests.

In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH.

So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.

 

The Point of an MMO is to play on a server with thousands of other people not to have massive groups.  You can complain about 25 or 40 mans being small.  The problem is not that the raids are hards, its near impossible to get 40 people to a raid.  Back when I ran 40 man raids we had to have 70+ people on everynight we raided just so we had enough of certain classes.  

 

Sorry this is a pointless post talking about how MMOs are not Massive.

 

I agree with the sentiment of the OP.

Most games do not have systems that actually take advantage of massive populations in a persistent world.

The worlds themselves are just lobbies for small group instances, and little more.  Large scale social, economic, or political systems are generally absent, which renders the virtual society meaningless.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

 
OP  12/27/12 6:34:06 PM#5
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by danwest58

Originally posted by nariusseldon small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....) arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3) raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles) and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests. In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH. So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.  
The Point of an MMO is to play on a server with thousands of other people not to have massive groups.  You can complain about 25 or 40 mans being small.  The problem is not that the raids are hards, its near impossible to get 40 people to a raid.  Back when I ran 40 man raids we had to have 70+ people on everynight we raided just so we had enough of certain classes.  

 

 

Sorry this is a pointless post talking about how MMOs are not Massive.




The game can be massive, even if the groups you are in are not massive. The number of interactions going on can be massive as well, especially if you have a global auction house or something similar.

 

Great .. you are describing Diablo 3. The groups are not massive. The number of interactions going on are massive, and it does have a global auction house and chat rooms.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

 
OP  12/27/12 6:35:01 PM#6
Originally posted by Rohn

I agree with the sentiment of the OP.

Most games do not have systems that actually take advantage of massive populations in a persistent world.

The worlds themselves are just lobbies for small group instances, and little more.  Large scale social, economic, or political systems are generally absent, which renders the virtual society meaningless.

meaningless? The "meaning" is to have fun .. and large scale social, economic and politic systems are obviously not required for fun.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

12/27/12 6:43:33 PM#7

MMORPGs used to be massively multiplayer*.  The genre evolved (or decayed) but the name stayed the same.

 

* hundreds if not thousands of players in the same connected world playing cooperatively or competitively.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3627

12/27/12 6:53:48 PM#8
    Most of the MMOs I play today I rarely see more than a few people......Grouping is totally dead (often not even needed) and even chat is usually dead.....People jsut play idfferently today than they did 10 years ago and the games cater to how people play now.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/27/12 7:07:22 PM#9
Sort of disagree.

Planetside 2 and gw2 are modern mmos that certainly cover the massive part of mmo.

But yeah I'm sick of mmos that turn into glorified lobby games once you hit endgame too.
  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/27/12 7:13:24 PM#10


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by danwest58

Originally posted by nariusseldon small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....) arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3) raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles) and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests. In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH. So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.  
The Point of an MMO is to play on a server with thousands of other people not to have massive groups.  You can complain about 25 or 40 mans being small.  The problem is not that the raids are hards, its near impossible to get 40 people to a raid.  Back when I ran 40 man raids we had to have 70+ people on everynight we raided just so we had enough of certain classes.       Sorry this is a pointless post talking about how MMOs are not Massive.
The game can be massive, even if the groups you are in are not massive. The number of interactions going on can be massive as well, especially if you have a global auction house or something similar.  
Great .. you are describing Diablo 3. The groups are not massive. The number of interactions going on are massive, and it does have a global auction house and chat rooms.


If we start with "MMO" as the type of game under discussion, the games like D3 are excluded. I would also hope that my two sentences doesn't describe everything possible in an MMO.

** edit **
However, a common set of terms to describe online games in general, and the games that attract massive crowds might be helpful. It doesn't have to be "MMO", but words or acronyms that can be used to describe a game, without saying, "It's like Diablo 3" or "It's like WoW".

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

 
OP  12/27/12 7:55:11 PM#11
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by danwest58

Originally posted by nariusseldon small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....) arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3) raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles) and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests. In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH. So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.  
The Point of an MMO is to play on a server with thousands of other people not to have massive groups.  You can complain about 25 or 40 mans being small.  The problem is not that the raids are hards, its near impossible to get 40 people to a raid.  Back when I ran 40 man raids we had to have 70+ people on everynight we raided just so we had enough of certain classes.       Sorry this is a pointless post talking about how MMOs are not Massive.
The game can be massive, even if the groups you are in are not massive. The number of interactions going on can be massive as well, especially if you have a global auction house or something similar.  
Great .. you are describing Diablo 3. The groups are not massive. The number of interactions going on are massive, and it does have a global auction house and chat rooms.


If we start with "MMO" as the type of game under discussion, the games like D3 are excluded. I would also hope that my two sentences doesn't describe everything possible in an MMO.

** edit **
However, a common set of terms to describe online games in general, and the games that attract massive crowds might be helpful. It doesn't have to be "MMO", but words or acronyms that can be used to describe a game, without saying, "It's like Diablo 3" or "It's like WoW".

 

I am not interested in debating definition, and very much D3 is by common usage, not a MMO.

However, your description of the game .. is exactly like D3. In my view, there is little difference, given your description, between doing WOW 5-man dungeon and playing D3, except the lobby is 3D in WOW. Wouldn't you agree? This argument can easily extend to Borderland 3, and many other online game.

And that is the point .. in terms of gameplay experences, a MMO is not that different from a non-MMO because much of that experience (particularly in PvE) is not massive.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

 
OP  12/27/12 7:56:34 PM#12
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Sort of disagree.

Planetside 2 and gw2 are modern mmos that certainly cover the massive part of mmo.

But yeah I'm sick of mmos that turn into glorified lobby games once you hit endgame too.

Sure there are exceptions .. that is why i say "MUCH of the gameplay" instead of "ALL of the gameplay". Don't you agree the kind of gameplay i described is not massive?

Now i am just making a factual observation. Some people (including me) obviously LIKE this kind of gameplay, otherwise it won't exist and be so popular.

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1189

12/27/12 8:03:57 PM#13
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Sort of disagree.

Planetside 2 and gw2 are modern mmos that certainly cover the massive part of mmo.

But yeah I'm sick of mmos that turn into glorified lobby games once you hit endgame too.

Too bad the current live client of GW2 does not maintain it's difficulty for large group content. Try doing The Assault on Arah with 10 players, afterwards do it with 50 players. Which is more fun?

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/27/12 8:14:42 PM#14


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by danwest58

Originally posted by nariusseldon small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....) arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3) raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles) and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests. In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH. So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.  
The Point of an MMO is to play on a server with thousands of other people not to have massive groups.  You can complain about 25 or 40 mans being small.  The problem is not that the raids are hards, its near impossible to get 40 people to a raid.  Back when I ran 40 man raids we had to have 70+ people on everynight we raided just so we had enough of certain classes.       Sorry this is a pointless post talking about how MMOs are not Massive.
The game can be massive, even if the groups you are in are not massive. The number of interactions going on can be massive as well, especially if you have a global auction house or something similar.  
Great .. you are describing Diablo 3. The groups are not massive. The number of interactions going on are massive, and it does have a global auction house and chat rooms.
If we start with "MMO" as the type of game under discussion, the games like D3 are excluded. I would also hope that my two sentences doesn't describe everything possible in an MMO. ** edit ** However, a common set of terms to describe online games in general, and the games that attract massive crowds might be helpful. It doesn't have to be "MMO", but words or acronyms that can be used to describe a game, without saying, "It's like Diablo 3" or "It's like WoW".  
I am not interested in debating definition, and very much D3 is by common usage, not a MMO.

However, your description of the game .. is exactly like D3. In my view, there is little difference, given your description, between doing WOW 5-man dungeon and playing D3, except the lobby is 3D in WOW. Wouldn't you agree? This argument can easily extend to Borderland 3, and many other online game.

And that is the point .. in terms of gameplay experences, a MMO is not that different from a non-MMO because much of that experience (particularly in PvE) is not massive.




My description was two sentences. It doesn't begin to cover the whole experience of playing D3 or playing WoW.

Of course they share some things in common, but they also have things between them that are not shared. You could say the same thing about Fallout 3 and The Secret World. That doesn't mean Fallout 3 and The Secret World should be considered part of the same category of games.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  moguy2

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/12
Posts: 364

Wish I had something positive to say =(

12/27/12 8:19:53 PM#15
Yeah
  greenreen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1515

12/28/12 12:58:19 AM#16

This is why, I think, part of why some people like large population games.

It's not because they play with the people concurrently, it's because they need a lot of people to go through because their personality is atrocious.

They can't make jokes that aren't rehashes of internet jokes that everyone has heard 1k times. They get jealous when someone has better gear. They can't be happy for another person getting a drop they "deserved". They exaggerate their personal accomplishments in life or money. They have more people on ignore than friends (ok, I've been guilty of that one myself).

 

Basically, they need to continually use people like toilet paper for their own wants. They don't want a community where they get to know people and couldn't name the people they have grouped with in the last month. Probably don't want to remember them either, plenty are of like-hive-mind. Me, mine, got it. Either you are doing something for me or are my enemy. Get away from my harvest, I saw it first. Train! run, oops guess I didn't tell anyone, haha that guy is dying.

 

If you think about it, they want massive just to get infinite chances for a do-over. In smaller communities you don't get all those second chances. When your game houses hundreds of people and you tick 15 of them off spamming chat and get put on ignore then do 5 groups over a month where you are as worthless as a paper towel in a bathtub, you earn a reputation and you will run out of people soon enough that will open their hand to you.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

 
OP  12/28/12 4:13:10 AM#17
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by danwest58

Originally posted by nariusseldon small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....) arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3) raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles) and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests. In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH. So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.  
The Point of an MMO is to play on a server with thousands of other people not to have massive groups.  You can complain about 25 or 40 mans being small.  The problem is not that the raids are hards, its near impossible to get 40 people to a raid.  Back when I ran 40 man raids we had to have 70+ people on everynight we raided just so we had enough of certain classes.       Sorry this is a pointless post talking about how MMOs are not Massive.
The game can be massive, even if the groups you are in are not massive. The number of interactions going on can be massive as well, especially if you have a global auction house or something similar.  
Great .. you are describing Diablo 3. The groups are not massive. The number of interactions going on are massive, and it does have a global auction house and chat rooms.
If we start with "MMO" as the type of game under discussion, the games like D3 are excluded. I would also hope that my two sentences doesn't describe everything possible in an MMO. ** edit ** However, a common set of terms to describe online games in general, and the games that attract massive crowds might be helpful. It doesn't have to be "MMO", but words or acronyms that can be used to describe a game, without saying, "It's like Diablo 3" or "It's like WoW".  
I am not interested in debating definition, and very much D3 is by common usage, not a MMO.

 

However, your description of the game .. is exactly like D3. In my view, there is little difference, given your description, between doing WOW 5-man dungeon and playing D3, except the lobby is 3D in WOW. Wouldn't you agree? This argument can easily extend to Borderland 3, and many other online game.

And that is the point .. in terms of gameplay experences, a MMO is not that different from a non-MMO because much of that experience (particularly in PvE) is not massive.




My description was two sentences. It doesn't begin to cover the whole experience of playing D3 or playing WoW.

Of course they share some things in common, but they also have things between them that are not shared. You could say the same thing about Fallout 3 and The Secret World. That doesn't mean Fallout 3 and The Secret World should be considered part of the same category of games.

 

Nope. I think you pretty much describe all the MP aspects of D3. Let's see

"The game can be massive, even if the groups you are in are not massive."

Well, as you say, the group in D3 is not massive, but the game "can be" massive.

"The number of interactions going on can be massive as well, especially if you have a global auction house or something similar."

D3 has one, doesn't it? So the interactions going on *is* massive in D3, right? That is what your sentence mean.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

 
OP  12/28/12 4:15:45 AM#18
Originally posted by greenreen

This is why, I think, part of why some people like large population games.

It's not because they play with the people concurrently, it's because they need a lot of people to go through because their personality is atrocious.

They can't make jokes that aren't rehashes of internet jokes that everyone has heard 1k times. They get jealous when someone has better gear. They can't be happy for another person getting a drop they "deserved". They exaggerate their personal accomplishments in life or money. They have more people on ignore than friends (ok, I've been guilty of that one myself).

 

Basically, they need to continually use people like toilet paper for their own wants. They don't want a community where they get to know people and couldn't name the people they have grouped with in the last month. Probably don't want to remember them either, plenty are of like-hive-mind. Me, mine, got it. Either you are doing something for me or are my enemy. Get away from my harvest, I saw it first. Train! run, oops guess I didn't tell anyone, haha that guy is dying.

 

If you think about it, they want massive just to get infinite chances for a do-over. In smaller communities you don't get all those second chances. When your game houses hundreds of people and you tick 15 of them off spamming chat and get put on ignore then do 5 groups over a month where you are as worthless as a paper towel in a bathtub, you earn a reputation and you will run out of people soon enough that will open their hand to you.

You sound like it is a bad thing. Small communities (like a guild) has all sort of drama .. and yes, no second chances. That is why a game with millions to play with is good ... if you met someone you don't like .. hit the "quit" button.

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2548

World > Quest Progression

12/28/12 6:16:14 AM#19
Originally posted by nariusseldon

small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....)

arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3)

raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles)

and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests.

In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH.

So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.

 

You know, I actually agree with this.  Due to the poor sales of MMOs over the last few years that have slid down the path you are talking about making the final step could drop the production cost enough to sustain them.  Of course, there will still be full featured MMOs made for the smaller population willing to support them.  For the majority of MMOs however a slimmed down version for free hoppers would do well I imagine.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2548

World > Quest Progression

12/28/12 6:22:27 AM#20
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Nope. I think you pretty much describe all the MP aspects of D3. Let's see

"The game can be massive, even if the groups you are in are not massive."

Well, as you say, the group in D3 is not massive, but the game "can be" massive.

"The number of interactions going on can be massive as well, especially if you have a global auction house or something similar."

D3 has one, doesn't it? So the interactions going on *is* massive in D3, right? That is what your sentence mean.

 

I think you understand what the difference is just fine, you just like to argue with people here because it's fun

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