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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What happened to classes in games? Formerly: It was never a trinity.

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169 posts found
  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1850

12/27/12 12:46:07 AM#121
Originally posted by Robokapp

you cant remove pvp. players naturally want to compete with one another.

 

also the strictness of class composition an class balance is a bigger problem in PvE than in non-elite pvp.

 

finally, 'tank' is not a viable pvp role so I don't see how your idea can fix class balancing since there's already only 2 roles in pvp not 3.

Well, single player games, mainly ps2, ps3, ... games are single .... I do not see any problem. I also want to compete, but not against players but programmers and pve environment. Yes, I know, behind pvp player there is brain, but still.

And I'm not against pvp, just I'm sure would be better for or if there would be specifically pvp and specifically pve mmo's.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

12/27/12 12:51:49 AM#122
Originally posted by gordiflu
Sigh, the lost art of crowd control.

I loved playing Loremaster in LOTRO because of the CC, and the power feed I could give healers. Was an interesting role to fill for sure.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  allendale5

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 125

12/27/12 1:30:46 AM#123
I pesonally enjoy having separate and distinct roles -- it makes me feel like I am contributing.  But I don't necessarily want to be pigeon-holed into a specific role based on my race or class.  Limited, yes, but not mandatory.   That should come from the build that I choose, imho.  However, the problem is that players figure out the prime builds and then expect you to be exactly that or else they will not want to group (swtor lev 50 sage/sorc are expected to heal, regardless of the other choices).  Differing classes and builds always lead to imbalance, and that in turn leads right back to forcing players to go with the inferred optimal construct.
  dimnikar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 277

12/27/12 1:45:17 AM#124

I'm sorry I didn't read the entire thread, just wanted to chime in and agree.

 

Even "newer" MMOs like WoW had a more complex class system in the beginning, only to have it dilluted after countless whines/crying on the official forums.

 

I remember when Hunters were pullers (Feign Death), Warlocks were debuffers, Paladins/Shaman buffers, Priests main healers, Druids HOT healers, Spriests had shadow synergy with warlocks, Mages & Rogues were primary CCers ... Probably forgetting a lot of the finer nuances now, but you get the picture. Same story in PVP!

 

Giving everyone every tool is NOT a good design decision (WoW as well as GW2 are guilty of this). The entire point of a MMO is to play with others, so complementary class design should be something every developer strives to achieve. Not 1:1 balance (that's just... idiotic).

 

http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 746

12/27/12 1:51:19 AM#125
Originally posted by dimnikar

I'm sorry I didn't read the entire thread, just wanted to chime in and agree.

 

Even "newer" MMOs like WoW had a more complex class system in the beginning, only to have it dilluted after countless whines/crying on the official forums.

 

I remember when Hunters were pullers (Feign Death), Warlocks were debuffers, Paladins/Shaman buffers, Priests main healers, Druids HOT healers, Spriests had shadow synergy with warlocks, Mages & Rogues were primary CCers ... Probably forgetting a lot of the finer nuances now, but you get the picture. Same story in PVP!

 

Giving everyone every tool is NOT a good design decision (WoW as well as GW2 are guilty of this). The entire point of a MMO is to play with others, so complementary class design should be something every developer strives to achieve. Not 1:1 balance (that's just... idiotic).

 

I like your last paragraph

  timtrack

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 410

12/27/12 1:52:45 AM#126

 

Computer manufacturers got lazy!

 

On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.

  dimnikar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 277

12/27/12 2:53:58 AM#127
Originally posted by timtrack

 

 

 

Computer manufacturers got lazy!

 

On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.

i appreciate your sentiment there, but computers today are actually far MORE complex than they used to be. And if before it was NEARLY impossible to troubleshoot a hardware malfunction of that sort, today it's COMPLETELY impossible.

So... not a very good comparison.

 

I do understand not wanting to invest too much time to master a game, even though I disagree with it. I like not being the best in a game. I like having stronger opponents to challenge me.

http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615

  timtrack

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 410

12/27/12 4:00:33 AM#128
Originally posted by dimnikar
Originally posted by timtrack

 

 

 

Computer manufacturers got lazy!

 

On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.

i appreciate your sentiment there, but computers today are actually far MORE complex than they used to be. And if before it was NEARLY impossible to troubleshoot a hardware malfunction of that sort, today it's COMPLETELY impossible.

So... not a very good comparison.

 

I do understand not wanting to invest too much time to master a game, even though I disagree with it. I like not being the best in a game. I like having stronger opponents to challenge me.

Just as classes today are far more complex since they incorporate multiple roles. I don't see being a pure buffer as more complex as being a tank/buffer/debuffer/puller. Yes, the complexity of the group composition is simplified to allow for easier access to content per player. One of the big reasons for this is probably because PvP now seems to be a mandatory thing to have in an MMO. Imagine being a pure buffer, or a puller, in PvP. It doesn't work very well. And with the current popularity of MMO's and the fact that most people want to pwn face, people playing those classes would be extremely rare. It works in an old-school pure RPG experience with less emphasis on downing health-pools. But even then, higher DPS is often a prefered choice due to simple math, more damage = faster kill.

 

But lets say we still do it, we have these classes in a game, that means that every encounter would have to make them mandatory. Like, you can't survive a boss without this specific buff from the buffer class. That would cause problems because you would spend 3 hours looking for a buffer instead of 3 hours playing the game. It's the good old "LF Healer last spot" but much worse and in multiple layers.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5280

12/27/12 4:51:00 AM#129

Realise you were joking Timtrack. But a modern computer does the same thing a valve computer did but more quickly. Modern MMO's do not do that, they are a differant type of MMO.

Not trying to bash modern MMO's here, just pointing out that appealing to a wider solo playing demographic was why you see so many of the changes talked about on this thread. I like solo games myself, I would just prefer MMO's to emphasise the massive, the multiplayer, the RPG. That way we have two styles of game, not one.

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1919

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

12/27/12 4:54:47 AM#130
yea it was so much better to have buff bots standing around just for the reason of buffing. i totally see why you miss that ^^

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  User Deleted
12/27/12 5:06:56 AM#131

People started complaining that it was hard to get an optimal group, so they dumbed it down.

Back in old school EQ2 you simply wouldnt do many of the harder dungeons if you didnt have both a Bard and Enchanter, they made that much of a difference. But that was 2 out of 12 archtypes that were absolutely required. Then you needed 1 tank, out of 6 options, and 1 healer, out of 6 options. The other 2 spots in the group were just dps fillers.

I do like the idea of support roles, but they need to balance out the number of classes. Dont have tanks taking up 1/4 of the class options, when they only take up 1 spot in a group of 6.

I think Vanguard has a pretty good balance of classes, and original EQ. Hopefully more games look to those for ideas in the future.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5620

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

12/27/12 7:19:52 AM#132
It is a common misconception to think that something complicated is also deep. From what I've seen however, often the opposite is true.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  tupodawg999

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 623

12/27/12 9:18:12 AM#133
Originally posted by Rydeson

     Tupo..  Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else..   Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo"..  Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills..  This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills..  When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content..  This will require that the world have both both solo and group content..  Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing.  Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills..

     I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..

 

Instead of trying to balance classes i think the aim should be to create classes that suit different player personalities. Some people like levelling through group-fighting and some like soloing and some like both in varying proportions depending on mood. In theory i think this should be easy to do but i think it requires *separate* levelling paths.

By definition someone who wants to solo can't level up on a path designed for group fights and there's no reason to group on a path designed to be soloed.

So when i talk about group, hybrid or solo classes it's more about how you design that class' path through the game - like breadcrumbs.

- a group class would have their gear drop in dungeons and static camps from grouped mobs

- a solo class would get their gear and class spells/abilites following a unique set of breadcrumbs for that class

- a hybrid class would have a bit of both

The main reason i divide them like that is i was thinking if you created a new game with say 6 starting races each with 4 classes then creating 24 unique (and good) solo class paths would be too much work initially and wouldn't provide the grouping option either. So i was thinking designate 2 of each race's classes as group classes and build a shared group levelling path for them as the main spine of the game. Designate one each of the race's classes as the solo class and create 6 unique effectively single player games within the core game for them. The last 6 hybrid classes are hybrid in the sense their path is a mixture of both rather than they are hybrid classes per se - although they likely would be.

 

===

I think a lot of people are missing that this is a logical problem.

If you have levelling based on solo questing where all the classes follow the same quests then two things logically must happen

1) The difficulty has to be set for the least soloable class.

2) The quests can't use unique class abilities e.g. a quest can't *require* climbing and lockpicking if only the rogue class has those abilities.

If you want to have unique classes with unique abilities then you either need separate solo class paths designed around those unique class abilities or the unique class abilites are only used in groups which has a tendency to lead to endless /LFG problems.

You could have a unique solo path for each class designed around their unique abilities *and* those abilities would fit into a group role however i think it would both be easier and lead to more replayability if the classes had separate categories.

 

===

All you need to make tanks work in pvp is to make taunt a timed mutual root and forced targeting.

Group pve fights would be more fun if melee mobs could do it to players too.

 

  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 203

12/27/12 10:59:50 AM#134

I like how Skyrim did, and it is RPG, you can equip bow and wear light cloth or havy armor, you can craft, make potions and enchant.

The idea of rollplay is to have freinds group together and have fun playing, never about restrictions of any kind.

Skyrim let you choose any and all classes, and yet people choose different styles.

The real problem with MMO is pvpers demand too much, and that break's gameplay for everyone else.

Better gear  which pvpers demand = easy gameplay against AI, then going on telling how good pvpers are.

PVPers don't need best gear to fight each other, it makes fights too long against each other, and hard to balance between pve and pvp.

  Phrame

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/11
Posts: 29

12/27/12 11:12:14 AM#135
Originally posted by tupodawg999
===

I think a lot of people are missing that this is a logical problem.

If you have levelling based on solo questing where all the classes follow the same quests then two things logically must happen

1) The difficulty has to be set for the least soloable class.

2) The quests can't use unique class abilities e.g. a quest can't *require* climbing and lockpicking if only the rogue class has those abilities.

If you want to have unique classes with unique abilities then you either need separate solo class paths designed around those unique class abilities or the unique class abilites are only used in groups which has a tendency to lead to endless /LFG problems.

You could have a unique solo path for each class designed around their unique abilities *and* those abilities would fit into a group role however i think it would both be easier and lead to more replayability if the classes had separate categories.

I think using this logic as the basis of class design is the problem, actually. The difficulty of the entire game shouldn't need to be set based on the weakest soloing class. Not everyone and every class needs to be able to do every quest. Adjusting the difficulty of the entire game so that the least soloable class can do everything will make the game pretty bland, IMO. 

 

You could just have various areas or types of content in the game with differing levels of difficulty: some areas that are easier to solo in but offer fewer rewards, and some areas that are more difficult to solo in but offer better rewards. Put in dungeons, interesting content, etc. in these more difficult areas to lure people in and encourage them to group up and explore those areas.  Have some quests that require teamwork and some that don't. Give unique abilities like lockpicking to multiple classes or specs within classes instead of just one to allow for more flexibility. 

 

This way, if you want to solo the more difficult content you can play a class/spec that has really strong solo capabilities. Everyone else will still be able to play a good amount of the game solo, or can take on the challenge of trying to solo in the more powerful areas. The idea is that an MMO should always encourage grouping and offer solo content for when people can't group up, but not for the entire game. 

 

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2542

12/27/12 11:12:32 AM#136
Originally posted by znaiika

I like how Skyrim did, and it is RPG, you can equip bow and wear light cloth or havy armor, you can craft, make potions and enchant.

The idea of rollplay is to have freinds group together and have fun playing, never about restrictions of any kind.

Skyrim let you choose any and all classes, and yet people choose different styles.

The real problem with MMO is pvpers demand too much, and that break's gameplay for everyone else.

Better gear  which pvpers demand = easy gameplay against AI, then going on telling how good pvpers are.

PVPers don't need best gear to fight each other, it makes fights too long against each other, and hard to balance between pve and pvp.

Problem here is Skyrim is a single player game.  You are playing in a very controlled world.

 

I believe a balance can be had between PvP and PvE but it is a tough balance. The reason is some skills used in PvP get OP in PvE - Example 100 blades in GW1. It made warriors pretty hard to kill also made for good farming builds. There needs to be a balance and neither PvPers or PvEers will be happy - that is the key.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2543

12/27/12 11:13:00 AM#137


Originally posted by MyTabbycat
Did the gaming companies get lazy or did the gamers?

Gamers and devs responed to that trend.

Asheron's call 2 has it all and with nice graphics a game 2 play AC2 is back with BETA server after 7years!

MB:MSI Z97XPOWER AC
CPU:Intell Icore7 4790k
GPU:MSI 2x AMD 290X
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 8.1 64bit

  Shorun

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/19/06
Posts: 235

12/27/12 11:14:22 AM#138

Games had way more then a trinity.

Tank

Healer

Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

Puller

Crowd control

Rezzer (not always the healer)

Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

There are still games that have this sort of classes, LOTRO for example. They're just not as popular (the most popular ones, e.g. WoW have the trinity)

 

Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

Guild Wars 2 got rid of the tanks and healers because very little people wanted to play them. The game isn't easier because everyone has the ability to heal and to rez, it's just different. GW2 is a game that did the classes right in my opinion.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7750

Logic be damned!

12/27/12 11:24:15 AM#139
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

Games had way more then a trinity.

Tank

Healer

Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

Puller

Crowd control

Rezzer (not always the healer)

Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

Now make me a game! go go go! :P

I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

The problem with Trinity games and more specifically WoW was that they removed the NEED for these roles from their content, not that they didn't have them.

Used to have Shadow Priests for your mana-feed/Buffer, Hunters for your pullers due to things like Misdirect and Feign (and kiting - anyone remember last boss of UBRS in Vanilla?) Mages were your primary Crowd Control, Druids had the battle rez, and Shaman had a lot of Attack buffer utility with totems and spells like Bloodlust/Heroism.

And you still need all of these roles in a raid, in a more difficult mode raid for sure, but they gave mulitple classes these abilities so you didn't have to bring the one token player for just that one thing.

It made it easier for any class to get into groups.

But at the same time, the mistake they made was that they removed the need for these other roles in small group content (dungeons) so a lot of people forgot about them and forgot how to do them.

Let me tell you - it's no fun to be brought on a raid just because of the buff you bring, you'll never play a larger role in terms of doing damage or healing or tanking mobs etc. - you are there for that buff and that is it. You are easily replaceable.

So WoW got it half right by spreading those roles around and trying to make all classes desirable - they just messed up by making 5-man content so easy no one needed things like Crowd Control anymore.

In fact they tried to change that in Cataclysm especially with Heroics and do you know what happened?

A virtual shit storm of rage and QQ from players.

I loved it, as did many of the other vets who were still around.

But they screwed up again in their design - when you make the content about grinding through an instance as fast as possible to get your badges and daily rewards people will focus 100% on efficiency and speed.

So the raiders who only ran heroics for the daily Valor reward wanted to get done as fast as possible so they could get back to raiding.

It's really, really tough to get the design right. Even for the biggest MMO out there.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Phrame

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/11
Posts: 29

12/27/12 11:27:33 AM#140
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

Games had way more then a trinity.

Tank

Healer

Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

Puller

Crowd control

Rezzer (not always the healer)

Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

Now make me a game! go go go! :P

I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

You could still have those roles in group play and give them other abilities to use while soloing

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