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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What happened to classes in games? Formerly: It was never a trinity.

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169 posts found
  Oracle_Fefe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/04/10
Posts: 218

Feethree

12/25/12 4:18:54 AM#61
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
The whole trinity concept is NOT about there only being 3 roles , its about there is ONLY 3 types of roles.

 

No imagination.

There are infinite types of roles. Fact.

You limit your mind to less because you are fed less.

I believe you're taking his words out of context.

He is saying that, nomatter what role you are doing, you're either dealing, mitigating, or healing damage. It's similar to builds within a class. You can have multiple builds, yet the class will always remain that class (In example, you can build your mage nature, elementalist, arcanist, whatever..but they shall still remain the mage class.)

You can be a puller, yet you're doing damage while you pull (DPS) or you're mitigating it by keeping distance. You can do aggro management to keep all enemies on a person but they are going to soak it up (Tank). You can continue butting your allies and stack heal-over-time restoration effects while they are being attacked (Healer.)

 

I guess the only type of actual shift from this is if people are able to mix-n-match roles in order to heal for a split second then go back to damaging, but regardless it will always remain damage/heal/mitigate. Any other roles, such a recon (Apologies if I'm taking this out of context the wrong way, Loktofeit.) are usually meant for out-of-combat cases unless the game would actually allow people to sneak out of combat and, like, watch for reinforcements. In which case that would be impressive, but the main topic is the combat trinity.

You're usually going to have a person be the main source of soaking or taking damage. You're usually going to have a team made to deal damage to an enemy. You're usually going to have a person that could heal the damage dealt in typical MMOs. While there are some cases where this could be changed (GW2 healer -> support, which was usually overlooked... Runescape's soloing methods or pull tactics such as SGW which is still considered being tanked.. That one special raid in any MMO which requires a healer with magical defense to tank.) Most of the other roles you may provide end up falling into the category of the three (four depending on the certain fights and the role of pulling) "trinity" roles. To make a game based on something new that could potentially introduce some new plan would require not just tons of planning, but balance to make sure it isn't RNG-based as per the tank-role deletion suggestion you gave.

 

Even then, they'll just be noted as "dodge tanks", or classes/people with the ability to avoid as much as possible, support who usually mitigate damage or even soak up some like tanks, and focused-fire DPS. The only interesting case would be the support option, but that's been slightly done in GW2 though several games have shown it possible with enough damage soaking.

tl;dr-

There are infinite types of roles, but they are usually categorized/organized into three roles with certain ones breaking out and being necessary only when the fight calls for them because, in my opinionyou should always be doing something in a fight unless it will be detrimential to your team (Or you are waiting for the perfect snapshot.). Even if you somehow provide the players with something new, they will break it down first to see if it aids them in any way above the usual setup.

Of course in my opinion, programming is infinite. Given enough time one can provide a whole new playing experience..but as it is, we're stuck with three folders filled with dozens of roles in each one.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

12/25/12 4:19:51 AM#62
Originally posted by MyTabbycat
Did the gaming companies get lazy or did the gamers?

Both..  Class roles like crowd control, buffer, debuffer, kiting, pulling were all NERFED into hybernation due to 1) LFG finder and 2) PvP balance..  Those two reasons are why we have homognaized holy trinity..  The only way we are going to get back thsoe unique special ability and roles is to go back in time..  We need to go back to dynamic group combat, NO LFG finder tool and screw PvP balance.. If I druid starts to kite your butt in PvP, oh well.. say goodbye Mr Warrior

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 4:25:23 AM#63
Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
The whole trinity concept is NOT about there only being 3 roles , its about there is ONLY 3 types of roles.

 

No imagination.

There are infinite types of roles. Fact.

You limit your mind to less because you are fed less.

it will always remain damage/heal/mitigate.

Stopped reading once that was said.

Imagination fail. Sigh.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 4:27:47 AM#64
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by MyTabbycat
Did the gaming companies get lazy or did the gamers?

Both..  Class roles like crowd control, buffer, debuffer, kiting, pulling were all NERFED into hybernation due to 1) LFG finder and 2) PvP balance..  Those two reasons are why we have homognaized holy trinity..  The only way we are going to get back thsoe unique special ability and roles is to go back in time..  We need to go back to dynamic group combat, NO LFG finder tool and screw PvP balance.. If I druid starts to kite your butt in PvP, oh well.. say goodbye Mr Warrior

100% right on the money.

EQOA had NO PVP! Screw pvp balance! If you want to play a better pvp role, Make an alt. You don't need balance. Build for PvE. Don't build for PvP.

 

I quit games when I run out of fun PvE no matter how great the PvP is and I know a lot of gamers that do the same. Tera had the best combat of my life but it just ran out of PvE so I had to move on.

I play games to become something amazing that no one has thought of or tried. I don't log into an mmorpg thinking. Oh god I cant wait to be a tank and do the same thing I just did for 20 years. Snorefest.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7119

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

12/25/12 4:28:44 AM#65
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs.

Games had way more then a trinity.

Tank

Healer

Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

Puller

Crowd control

Rezzer (not always the healer)

Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

 

I could go on and on.

 

Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

 

Edited in:

Killing the trinity:

Tank role deletion: All damage is based on getting hit or not getting hit (avoidance). All characters have the same defensive standpoint.

Healer role deletion: Take out all abilities to regen HP except a natural passive heal over time. Like real life wounds are healed.

DPS role deletion: Take out differentials in damage output. Take out enemy HP. What part of a monster you attack starts to weaken and break him down. (obviously this would be the hardest role to take out but if there was no damage differential in skills it would all be skill based and therefore having no tank or healer role naturally takes this role out as well.) It's like: Mortal Kombat as an example. Everyone fights but you don't call them DPS.

Now make me a game! go go go! :P

 

 

You are of course correct, but I see the word 'trinity' as just a shorthand for the style of play you describe here. Whether it is literally true dosen't really bother me. I think the last thing we need here is another ongoing war over the meaning of a word... we really need this debated now in every thread in the future like 'sandbox' is?

It can really get in the way of actual interesting conversations.

Can we not just be cool that 'Trinity' means everything stated above and move on?

  Oracle_Fefe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/04/10
Posts: 218

Feethree

12/25/12 4:29:24 AM#66
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
The whole trinity concept is NOT about there only being 3 roles , its about there is ONLY 3 types of roles.

 

No imagination.

There are infinite types of roles. Fact.

You limit your mind to less because you are fed less.

it will always remain damage/heal/mitigate.

Stopped reading once that was said.

Imagination fail. Sigh.

Do you always insult, mock, or generally demoralize everyone that has a different mindset than you? It's much more effective to post your own opinion on the matter.

There's two trinity threads up on the first page. One of how long ago did it start, the other one stating that the trinity never was, and that other roles altogether make a "trinity" or however people would like to call that.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 4:33:10 AM#67
I did not intend to mock you or criticize you in any way. This entire topic is based on avoiding the lack of imagination in class roles and you jumped right into the topic that we are discussing against. Therefore it offered nothing constructive to the advancement of the class roles/"trinity". Rather you admitted defeat.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 788

12/25/12 4:37:30 AM#68
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
Originally posted by XAPGames
Role diversity sounds awesome.  Were the group sizes larger?  Or raid groups in normal-ish dungeons?

Most of my personal non trinity preference design would come from EQOA. We had the standard party size (5-6) and no raids at all. It was more fun to play the misfit classes and be a person that excelled at them because people truly remembered you in partys. I played an offensive modded warrior and it was the most rare class in game. We sacrificed everything meant to make us tank (def mods) to get 6 offensive mods (most in game) and we were a very "unwanted" class. The perk to being an amazing one, our group could have me tank and have way higher output of dps overall (you grinded in eqoa even after level cap, class mastery ftw). I just had to have a real nice healer for sure lol. being different in games is fun. The more classes the more unique you feel.

i remember EQOA :) i had a Pally tank a necromancer wich is obviously pure dps but had a really strong pet.

And i had this enchanter wich at max lvl had 800 HP i had about 7k mana tho (kinda the most mana and least hp on european server afaik:P) When in a raid on vox i had to stand behind a pillar the entire time because her aoe did more damage then my hp bar had hp :P people came running to me when they needed mana.

(enchanter was a mana feeder) i could use a skill wich costed me about 300 mana and would give 1k mana to target :) + a powerfull mana regenbuff it was a wanted class :)

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 4:40:20 AM#69

 

You are of course correct, but I see the word 'trinity' as just a shorthand for the style of play you describe here. Whether it is literally true dosen't really bother me. I think the last thing we need here is another ongoing war over the meaning of a word... we really need this debated now in every thread in the future like 'sandbox' is?

It can really get in the way of actual interesting conversations.

Can we not just be cool that 'Trinity' means everything stated above and move on?

Yeah I could have just left the trinity word out. My bad lol. I should have titled this. "What happened to class imagination".

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11829

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

12/25/12 4:40:50 AM#70
Originally posted by Oracle_Fefe
Any other roles, such a recon (Apologies if I'm taking this out of context the wrong way, Loktofeit.) are usually meant for out-of-combat cases unless the game would actually allow people to sneak out of combat and, like, watch for reinforcements. In which case that would be impressive, but the main topic is the combat trinity.

The roles I listed are combat roles. They just aren't present in most mainstream MMOs because of the mechanics of combat and the design of the combat arena.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 4:43:38 AM#71
Originally posted by xeniar
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
Originally posted by XAPGames
Role diversity sounds awesome.  Were the group sizes larger?  Or raid groups in normal-ish dungeons?

Most of my personal non trinity preference design would come from EQOA. We had the standard party size (5-6) and no raids at all. It was more fun to play the misfit classes and be a person that excelled at them because people truly remembered you in partys. I played an offensive modded warrior and it was the most rare class in game. We sacrificed everything meant to make us tank (def mods) to get 6 offensive mods (most in game) and we were a very "unwanted" class. The perk to being an amazing one, our group could have me tank and have way higher output of dps overall (you grinded in eqoa even after level cap, class mastery ftw). I just had to have a real nice healer for sure lol. being different in games is fun. The more classes the more unique you feel.

i remember EQOA :) i had a Pally tank a necromancer wich is obviously pure dps but had a really strong pet.

And i had this enchanter wich at max lvl had 800 HP i had about 7k mana tho (kinda the most mana and least hp on european server afaik:P) When in a raid on vox i had to stand behind a pillar the entire time because her aoe did more damage then my hp bar had hp :P people came running to me when they needed mana.

(enchanter was a mana feeder) i could use a skill wich costed me about 300 mana and would give 1k mana to target :) + a powerfull mana regenbuff it was a wanted class :)

Haha nice to see another old EQOA gamer. I pretty much wrote this entire thread based on that class (enchanter). Along with some other special classes like a FFXI "puller". It's very rare in games that a class is so specified to a task and I think the rewards and love being one of those classes is really missing in newer games. I cannot tell you how many enchanter friends were on my list. Pretty much ALL of them on CLW. I dual boxed 2 ps2's. I had a pure offensive modded warrior (6 mods most in game) and I loved my 5k hp heal. Since 5k was 100% of my hp it sure made me feel amazing every hour! I dual boxd a shammy healer/buffer of course since i was a pretty squishy guy lol.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11829

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

12/25/12 4:46:42 AM#72
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

What happened to class imagination?

It's still around but in more of the sandbox focused MMOs, specifically the ones based on warfare. It exists because those games don't predefine classes which means they are not then trying to restrict the game mechanics to fit within the confines of those classes.

If we are talking about classes beyond just combat, they are still around and doing well. You just have to look again toward sandbox-focused MMOs, as they often offer multiple ways to progress outside of the standard homocidal maniac path.

  Oracle_Fefe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/04/10
Posts: 218

Feethree

12/25/12 4:48:47 AM#73
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
I did not intend to mock you or criticize you in any way. This entire topic is based on avoiding the lack of imagination in class roles and you jumped right into the topic that we are discussing against. Therefore it offered nothing constructive to the advancement of the trinity. Rather you admitted defeat.

Everyone jumps into the topic with a post, whether it's agreement or disagreement. By not aknowledging those who disagree and attempting to persuade, explain or offer a different view and instead bashing (attempting to cause people to lose confidence, whether it be through just plain snarky insults labeled as "fact" that have nothing to do with the topic ("Your thoughts are tiny like the games that come out lately, You limit your mind to less because you are fed less, Imagination fail. Sigh, Rather you admitted defeat.")) the poster, you're keeping a sentimental (or nostalgic?) thread focused on your opinions and those who would agree with them.

A thread biased through your own means only brings a healthy discussion only if everyone agrees with you as I see is the case at this moment, and anyone who doesn't gets a comment that states how intellectual they are, that they can't see the truth because it's "what the gaming companys think you want" and "that is why class diversity in games is so lame now." along with somehow proving your point. On what grounds?

 

With your other topic/subject name "What happened to class imagination." I wouldn't have came here explaining my disagreement on the trinity and would even agree depending on how it's worded. But seeing how unneedingly negative it has become towards people disagreeing I'd rather just call it off.

Apologies Loktofeit, I knew that I would take it out of context the wrong way. Combat arenas is an interesting topic to bring up, however.

  HeroEvermore

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OP  12/25/12 4:51:19 AM#74

But i want to kill stuff differently then im used to.... You are right though for sure. These do exist in many games.

I am a very very very very strict High Fantasy MMORPG gamer. Nothing else shall wet my apetite as much. I probably should have explained that better at the start but im not really a "writer". Im just some dude with an opinion thats no more important then anyones.

I miss games making more classes. I felt like Everquest and a few other franchises were heading in that direction and my imagination to what the future held 10 years ago has saddened me when I look at what "classes" are offered today.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  HeroEvermore

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OP  12/25/12 4:52:55 AM#75

I just doing my best to speak engrish at this point. its 3am and im at work on xmas morning. Sorry for being rude. Peace and Love. It really was not my intention.

*hugs oracle*

Edited my previous post that you found rude.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  HeroEvermore

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OP  12/25/12 4:59:41 AM#76
I have changed the title of my post to express the meaning behind it. It was never meant to flame anyone for using the word trinity. It was meant to explain that games were not always limited to such simplistic class design.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  Jetrpg

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Joined: 4/22/06
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12/25/12 5:21:18 AM#77

OP while i do tend to agree with the end result is disagree with your premiss.

It wasn't the dedicated roles that made these classes/combat style work, its was the differentiated roles.

While eq1 did a good job , id argue daoc did far better. With multiple classes each side mix and matched abilitites .. who had what between its classes (some what 40 or 41 something close to that) with many of them having much in common spread throught the different classes (with some unquie flavor thrown in). In this daoc exampled its not that you need to have a healer that onyl heals, and a buffer that only buffs. DAoc shown that if you have diversity of ability/ effectiveness that you had tyo trade for other things then you build a large and robust system that we both enjoy.

So an example, Druids (Hib) are prime healers, prime stat buffers, and have a pet and dot/dps line with some minor cc. You could obtain great heals and great stat buffs but your dps/pet/rooting ability would be less. This guy healed. Healers (mid) you could heal great, CC kings, and power (mana) and attack speed buff. Again pick two to do well with. Ok and Cleric (alb) great heals, good stat buffs (different ones in some cases), a crazy dps option (pick two but the dps optiosn are always a bit more demanding) .

Thast just one of the match ups, a good note is that the HEALER has the nice short term attackspeed buff avalible where as the other two do not, you'll find the same abilities on other classes for each of those sides.  In this way you can see you get what you where talking about largely, You have a role. But for the most part you do always soak, heal, or dps some. This is good. Its good to given people very needed group/raid roles, plus provided them with active roles .  So like you have chanting classes in the game also that have super short term aoe buffs and you could twist them so buy replaying them you could keep 2-3 of these group buffs up its viable but its also helpful to toss in heals and cc when needed. Keeping them more active then a bot.

This is what i am lookign for differentiated classes and roles (im super sick of having 2+ sides and making them the same classes, thats so lazy). They ahve optinunities to make entire other sides new combat experinces, largely the same (side-wise) but with marked differnces individually. Its also worth noting many of the options are unquie, but most of the core roleshave counterparts mixed throught the classes (heals, tank, dps, range, aoe, buffs, cc, then a giant and wild mixed bag of just for you).

 

While this was long i feel like its needed, i want that type of game the type of game your asking for, classes don't have to fit only one role, they don't have to simply soak (there were also so many stop gaps in that game, classes with support abilities that had less then amazing heals, or takyish dps with some magic to extend their range beyond melee)  What we need is real diversity. Wow had this at one time, when it was better shadow priest played a role, shamans too, etc. It was always far weaker and far worse then the older games, but at least to some degree there. but like the failure of GW2 is a good example

No trinity , they took this and made it no anything no heals, no support, and no tank. There are specs and lines for these, but they are all far worse then just pure dps specs. There are not roles no strengths or weakness in that game only dps. In beta it had at least some level of ability to support a bit (while soaking and dpsing) and soak some (while dpsing and  supporting) but they nerffed that out , because it was effective . They basiclly wanted to make anythign other than pure dps uselss and so they did. This si just dumb. You can say no longer will you sit back in just heal, instead youll heal your abilities will largely be to heal and buff but youll also dps a lot also and soak some at the same time . This is fine i would call that the death of the trinity , but no you cannot even do that in ANET's mind everyone must be the same reguardless of spec... so what was the point in the first place. Why even play an mmo.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  Lizardone

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Posts: 94

12/25/12 5:28:40 AM#78

Come at me bro! Gimme a tank that can AOE healz and haz cc abilities; I wanna be able to PWN and facerollol with me i-win button and be the greatest hero in me server. Any game that doesn't haz this is epic fail.

That been said, I agree with the OP.  These days, game directors will say it's too hard. Maybe they are right if you follow the money.

  HeroEvermore

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OP  12/25/12 5:30:13 AM#79
Yeah I probably should play DAoC again. I never got that far into it. Truly what I want is more diversification in roles. It's not the trinity that bothers me so much as I often find myself playing a "tank". I would prefer 100 classes to no classes at all it was merely tossing around ideas and I appreciate your insight as well.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  HeroEvermore

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OP  12/25/12 5:33:19 AM#80
Originally posted by Lizardone

Come at me bro! Gimme a tank that can AOE healz and haz cc abilities; I wanna be able to PWN and facerollol with me i-win button and be the greatest hero in me server. Any game that doesn't haz this is epic fail.

That been said, I agree with the OP.  These days, game directors will say it's too hard. Maybe they are right if you follow the money.

HAHAHAHA! Love it!

I understand it's hard to do but i think taking out the pvp aspect of a game makes this much more possible. Not having to balance vs players allows for much more class diversity in PvE. Least that is what I believe EQ had going for it. I don't think devs need to make pvp a thing in every game and I hope some can omit it with that in mind.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

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