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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What happened to classes in games? Formerly: It was never a trinity.

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169 posts found
  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4590

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/25/12 1:12:34 AM#41
Originally posted by Zyzra

 

I mean what's next, people asking for half their raid being filled with one of each profession - such as fishing, jewelcrafting, and cooking?

"Guys we can't take down this undead warlord boss, we don't have a chef."

lurker below in SSC required...ONE fisher.

 

also I only represet my own opinions, not 'people's'

  Oracle_Fefe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/04/10
Posts: 218

Feethree

12/25/12 1:18:55 AM#42
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

Obviously you never played an enchanter type role that is completely designated to feed buffs and mana and not do ANY damage.

 Honestly. No, I have not. I've only started MMO's in 2004 and regardless of my game, all of the roles that have been similar to such has been support or done pre/after battles. May you please direct me to a particular class in a game that does that? I'm not questioning in a demeaning way but just for example.

You also have never played a puller in ffxi (vanilla). Whos only job was to grab a mob, drop it off at a tank, then go get another mob. Your thoughts are tiny like the games that come out lately. We want big thinkers. Thanks for playing :P

 No, I have not. However, tell me what happens when the puller is finished "pulling" or when there are no more mobs. Do they pull mobs already on the tank if they don't require that? Do they sit around and do nothing until the next thing happens? Usually they do and start doing some damage alongside the rest of their teammates like DPS.

Also, the tone in which you type is quite disrespectful. I didn't come to this thread to disrespect, but to disagree. I hope that your next post attacks my words, not my person/ality.

You exact thoughts are honestly what the gaming companys think you want and that is why class diversity in games is so lame now. Thank you for proving my point lol.

 Read above comment.

Why not just make my class the tank/healer/dps and not even make parties in games. Great idea /sarcasm

 I didn't say that all classes are Tank/Healer/DPS, but that most, if not nearly every role in games usually go down to a Tank/Healer/DPS role in offtime. If you're buffing everyone on a team and you have a heal-over-time. Then why not apply the heal over time? You're practically being a healer. If you pulled a mob out of the danger zone for a tank to pick up and he's the only mob, then start DPSing. Once again I'm not saying that you can't CC a mob all day, but that the trinity is called the trinity because they are considered major roles that most other roles fall into. Generalization. Think having specific papers in three different folders.

WHEN GAMES BEGAN-

I thought classes would grow and become infinity. Now they are even less then a trinity. A true waste of imagination.

Classes, roles, and the trinity I (!) consider extremely different things (Roles and Trinity are subjective to opinion.) Classes can for sure be infinite. Roles, depending on the variety of classes. However, most of them will fall within the category of dealing damage, soaking damage,  healing damage, or, since you've gave me another outlet, maximizing/minimizing damage done (Through the form of buffs.)

 

Again, in every post I do I say it's my opinion because it is. I'm not attempting to enforce the way I think upon you but to give my own view onto the topic.

  Fearum

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1089

12/25/12 1:21:48 AM#43
Those days are long gone, I was depressed when moving to WoW from DAoC to find out that they combined some of the classes or did away with them. I was under the illusion that each new game would expand class selection more and more but it went the opposite way. With each new game that came out you got less and less class definition until now you can be everything in one package. I guess the only way to go now is back to having many different classes, can't really narrow them down anymore unless you let everyone become a god.
  XxGrimmxX

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

12/25/12 1:34:40 AM#44
Really? It was NEVER a trinity... Just making sure.
  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

12/25/12 1:39:12 AM#45
I do like the idea of hyper specialization like that. However, since MMORPGs allow players to access content at their own speed, they have to support independant play styles. Players have to be able to progress with the game regardless of other players interaction. It's like saying that single player RPGs can only have "Jack of All Trades" based archetypes because players can only play by themselves and therefore must need all types of abilities.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3732

RIP City of Heroes!

12/25/12 1:42:57 AM#46
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

 

Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

 So you know better than Richard Bartle?

Are you aware of who he is?

  Skeeter50

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 155

12/25/12 1:44:38 AM#47
"Casual"  is to blame.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12121

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/25/12 1:45:33 AM#48
Originally posted by Zyzra

I mean what's next, people asking for half their raid being filled with one of each profession - such as fishing, jewelcrafting, and cooking?

"Guys we can't take down this undead warlord boss, we don't have a chef."

While that's getting a bit silly, I'd like to see more MMOs with more expanded roles such as commander, logistics, recon/intel or seige/machinery operator. The roles exist outside of trinity-based games. UO, SB, Vendetta and EVE are some examples of games with one or more of them. Most of those roles are not needed in your average MMO due to either the mechanics of combat or the static nature of the game world.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 2:09:35 AM#49
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

 

Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

 So you know better than Richard Bartle?

Are you aware of who he is?

I know all. Duh. I beat secret of mana and had every final weapon. Didn't you see my avatar? :P (giggle)

In case you don't know who he is though heres the wiki I wrote on him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bartle

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 2:11:18 AM#50
How does a recon/intel work? That sounds pretty cool.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 2:14:11 AM#51
Originally posted by Skeeter50
"Casual"  is to blame.

Yeah. Casual sells more. Sure doesn't have the retention though. FFXI is pretty hardcore, it's still going strong.

 

As to the person who asked what a puller did when he wasn't pulling in FFXI. He was always pulling. He never was with the party except to drop off mobs. 24/7 go get em tiger! A role that was so utterly unselfish in parties and our gratitude of the pro pullers was never ending. FFXI can be a dangerous game. A bad puller can set you back days of xp.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4590

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/25/12 2:21:30 AM#52
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
How does a recon/intel work? That sounds pretty cool.

you stay 'among the enemy' with a cloak or a very fast ship and say stuff like

 

"they're 20 off gate, approaching now. armor HACs and 4 guardians".

 

advantages: you're the 'eyes' of the team. the other people except the leader stay mostly silent and follow commands. You get to speak whenever you want/need to. Also based on what comes out of your mouth the leader decides what to do with his team.

 

finally...if stuff goes wrong it's leader's fault. you have no responsibility beyond reporting what you see. undertanding, using that information and calculating a battle plan is FCs job.

 

disadvantages: you're at high risk of dying since you fly near the enemy and you might miss thebegining of the fight since you jump after the enemy did.

 

it's a fun role. you're the "eyes" of the team - but not the brain. the brain and the eyes must work together and decide how to use the muscle.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 2:25:12 AM#53
Cool. Sounds fun. Eve isnt really my kind of game but i love that general idea. if dungeons were different every time like in some games I could see that incorporated into an mmorpg setting as well. Definately sounds like a very important role though. Just like scouts in the military. Can make or break a battle.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12121

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/25/12 2:41:03 AM#54
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by HeroEvermore
How does a recon/intel work? That sounds pretty cool.

you stay 'among the enemy' with a cloak or a very fast ship and say stuff like

"they're 20 off gate, approaching now. armor HACs and 4 guardians".

advantages: you're the 'eyes' of the team. the other people except the leader stay mostly silent and follow commands. You get to speak whenever you want/need to. Also based on what comes out of your mouth the leader decides what to do with his team.

finally...if stuff goes wrong it's leader's fault. you have no responsibility beyond reporting what you see. undertanding, using that information and calculating a battle plan is FCs job.

disadvantages: you're at high risk of dying since you fly near the enemy and you might miss thebegining of the fight since you jump after the enemy did.

it's a fun role. you're the "eyes" of the team - but not the brain. the brain and the eyes must work together and decide how to use the muscle.

It was similar to that in SB, with scouts and rogues of both sides playing a spy-vs-spy cat and mouse game where the objective is to both gather/relay information on the enemy and hunt/evade the opposing scouts.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

12/25/12 3:28:06 AM#55

Having more roles means having more reason to group. Modern MMO's are aimed at the large solo demographic, effectively they are solo games online where you bump into odd cape of another gamer but do not have to interact with them.

I used to play a Puller and Off Tank mostly. A Tank and Dps was something I tried out in later games as those former roles disappeared.

  jondifool

Novice Member

Joined: 6/04/07
Posts: 1122

12/25/12 3:31:02 AM#56
Originally posted by HeroEvermore

I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs.

Games had way more then a trinity.

Tank

Healer

Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

Puller

Crowd control

Rezzer (not always the healer)

Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

 

I could go on and on.

 

Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

This is one terrible biazed post.

My thought is that OP simply don't get it the differense between having different roles and different type of roles!

The whole trinity concept is NOT about there only being 3 roles , its about there is ONLY 3 types of roles. If you look into it you can see that roles fall into 3 types, and therefore the name the trinity!

I can agree that there have been a certain lazyness or lack of creativity in having only 3 roles too cover the 3 types. But basicly in many years we have had threads popping up about the multiple roles in old MMO's from gamers there haven't reflected deep enough to see the mechaninc behind thesse roles. And us that have played the old MMO's find it funny that there is still players that haven't grasped it.

the basic mechanics that is unavoidble is damage, support and control. Every role falls into one of thesse main categories. And it is EVERY ROLE, without exception. Called it buffer , debuffer, off tank, rezzer ans so on , its just damage , control and support.

We can talk about how gameplay for many years have developed into a very primity setup often named the "holy trinity" where there where fixed and very limited roles. With control nearly only being about tanking and taunting, support being a reactive whack a mole mini game, and damage being only about gearing up for max dps.

We can talk about if the old days where better where there where more specialization with more fixed roles, covering more facets of the 3 types? BUT it doesn't change the trinity as the basic foundation the game is build upon. 

 

 

read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 3:52:09 AM#57
The whole trinity concept is NOT about there only being 3 roles , its about there is ONLY 3 types of roles.

 

Edit: Sowwy oracle i did not mean to be rude. I read your post and i do agree with much of it. I just a sleepy head and was hoping for ideas on advancing classes and bsically got the opposite of why it was the way it was. Being as you are a good writer I would love suggestions on advancing class roles in high fantasy mmorpg combat.

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 4:05:47 AM#58

Killing the trinity:

Tank role deletion: All damage is based on getting hit or not getting hit (avoidance). All characters have the same defensive standpoint.

Healer role deletion: Take out all abilities to regen HP except a natural passive heal over time. Like real life wounds are healed.

DPS role deletion: Take out differentials in damage output. Take out enemy HP. What part of a monster you attack starts to weaken and break him down. (obviously this would be the hardest role to take out but if there was no damage differential in skills it would all be skill based and therefore having no tank or healer role naturally takes this role out as well.) It's like: Mortal Kombat as an example. Everyone fights but you don't call them DPS.

Now make me a game! go go go! :P

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  ElectricWizard

Novice Member

Joined: 11/17/12
Posts: 49

12/25/12 4:07:52 AM#59

i posted a similar topic when the GW2 hype about evolving past the "trinity" started... i was mocked by these clueless fucks. now we have GW2's clusterfuck bland mess of a combat system and these fukwads think its "teamwork" and "skill baserd". HAH

great post, very true. thanks.

group dynamics are currently dead in MMORPGs. dead.

  HeroEvermore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/09
Posts: 692

Banned 18 times and counting.

 
OP  12/25/12 4:11:36 AM#60

Yeah im not here to say anyones game is right or wrong. All im saying is what happened to the creativity. Tank>healer>dps is so simple. It is going to be someone who can truly break that mold by not simplifying it but rather ADVANCING IT! This is what will get a game to be something AMAZING (to me).

 

I may play your themepark for a month or two.

I will live in your diversified world of infinite imagination for much longer :D

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

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