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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Trinity: MMO born or before?

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188 posts found
  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 11:59:37 AM#101
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Only thing I know is that if GW2 represents the "alternative" to this trinity, I will take the trinity any day, any time.

I think the only way to remove trinity in MMOs is to have collision detection.  It would have to be modified in some fashion as CD can lead to griefing if exploited but it is necessary if devs want to remove taunting from the game mechanic.

I would even suggest limiting or removing healing during combat.  That way the front line fighters wouldn't just be meat shields.  They would have to dish out heavy damage like everyone else.  Healing could be done out of combat.  It certainly would create a whole different tactical strategy.  This is of course off the top of my head.  I'm sure there may be lots of problems with this type of mechanic.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/29/12 12:01:30 PM#102
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Only thing I know is that if GW2 represents the "alternative" to this trinity, I will take the trinity any day, any time.

I think the only way to remove trinity in MMOs is to have collision detection.  It would have to be modified in some fashion as CD can lead to griefing if exploited but it is necessary if devs want to remove taunting from the game mechanic.

You're not alone in that view. See the Bartle link posted earlier in this thread.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/29/12 12:02:18 PM#103
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
Everyone hates trinity but no one is offering an alternative thought. 

...other than all the people in this thread that already have.

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 12:07:43 PM#104
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Only thing I know is that if GW2 represents the "alternative" to this trinity, I will take the trinity any day, any time.

I think the only way to remove trinity in MMOs is to have collision detection.  It would have to be modified in some fashion as CD can lead to griefing if exploited but it is necessary if devs want to remove taunting from the game mechanic.

You're not alone in that view. See the Bartle link posted earlier in this thread.

Oh neat, I will.  Thanks.

  Rhazmuz

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/12
Posts: 203

They say you are what you eat.. But I dont remember eating a fu**ing legend!

12/29/12 12:10:14 PM#105

But why are people so averse to this "trinity"?

Because they dont want to be pidgeonholed? because they want to tank sometimes, heal sometimes etc?

Well isnt that more down to how character design and advacement is done, more than it is down to combat mechanics?

 

Look at a game like TSW where you can branch out and gain specs and abilities suited for different roles, in different situations?

 

Having tried both GW2 and normal "trinity" based games, I must admit I prefer games where I can understand the underlying mehcnaics, and learn how to control these steadily, as a tank for example, as compared to GW2 which for me always felt like agame where I had no clue what was going, who was targeted by the mob, and why I often would seem to lose half of my 26k hp as a somewhat beefy warrior.

  grimfall

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/07
Posts: 1155

12/29/12 12:14:21 PM#106
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Only thing I know is that if GW2 represents the "alternative" to this trinity, I will take the trinity any day, any time.

I think the only way to remove trinity in MMOs is to have collision detection.  It would have to be modified in some fashion as CD can lead to griefing if exploited but it is necessary if devs want to remove taunting from the game mechanic.

You're not alone in that view. See the Bartle link posted earlier in this thread.

Oh neat, I will.  Thanks.

DDO has collision detection - it still has plate wearing classes with taunt skills, though.  It's a 4 class game (heal, tank, damage, traps and doors).

I disagree that taunting isn't a real life mechanic.  Taunting has started fightes for thousands of years.  It's an assinine argument that "healing spells and fireball spells are realistic, but taunting that's crazy" anyway.

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 12:19:53 PM#107
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

But why are people so averse to this "trinity"?

Some people are very comfortable with the trinity paradigm.  But I will try to answer your question personally.

It makes forming a group harder.  No matter how many specs you give people, some people just don't want to tank or heal.  By forcing groups to have a tank and healer, you make it harder to find groups.  I don't think I need to show evidence of this.  Look at every MMO that uses the trinity as it's core mechanic; there is always a shortage of tanks and healers (especially tanks).

It's also unrealistic.  Taunts are unrealistic.  Enemies should target the players that are the largest threat to them, meaning the guy who is killing them the most.  Tanks do the least damage and therefore are the weakest threat yet taunts can keep mobs off the true threats.  It is an unrealistic mechanic to unrealistic combat.

It's limiting.  There are some variations but pretty much every encounter is a form of tank and spank.  Remove the taunt and heal mechanic and then players would have to use tactical positioning and strategic resource management to fight.  I think there would be more variations to combat.

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 12:24:50 PM#108
Originally posted by grimfall

DDO has collision detection - it still has plate wearing classes with taunt skills, though.  It's a 4 class game (heal, tank, damage, traps and doors).

I disagree that taunting isn't a real life mechanic.  Taunting has started fightes for thousands of years.  It's an assinine argument that "healing spells and fireball spells are realistic, but taunting that's crazy" anyway.

DDO didn't go far enough because there is an expectancy for healers to mititage damage for the fighter.  I just read the Bartle blog, he's right, healers are just an extension of the tank's armor and is redundant. 

Relative realism.  Are you telling me you'd attack the guy shouting "your momma" jokes instead of the guy tossing fireballs that are incinerating your group? 

  Rhazmuz

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/12
Posts: 203

They say you are what you eat.. But I dont remember eating a fu**ing legend!

12/29/12 12:27:25 PM#109
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

But why are people so averse to this "trinity"?

Some people are very comfortable with the trinity paradigm.  But I will try to answer your question personally.

It makes forming a group harder.  No matter how many specs you give people, some people just don't want to tank or heal.  By forcing groups to have a tank and healer, you make it harder to find groups.  I don't think I need to show evidence of this.  Look at every MMO that uses the trinity as it's core mechanic; there is always a shortage of tanks and healers (especially tanks).

It's also unrealistic.  Taunts are unrealistic.  Enemies should target the players that are the largest threat to them, meaning the guy who is killing them the most.  Tanks do the least damage and therefore are the weakest threat yet taunts can keep mobs off the true threats.  It is an unrealistic mechanic to unrealistic combat.

It's limiting.  There are some variations but pretty much every encounter is a form of tank and spank.  Remove the taunt and heal mechanic and then players would have to use tactical positioning and strategic resource management to fight.  I think there would be more variations to combat.

I understand the notion of constraints or issues in relation to forming groups.

 

However, Im not sure how a thing like collision solves this. In my mind, removing stuff like healing and taunting, and the effects on possible mob/boss mechanics gives me visions of heavy kite fights or mass chaos in relation to getting people in and out from in front of the boss.

Other suggestions than collision might work better, but I think collision and trying to emulate "real life" combat mechanics might sound better than how they will actually pan out in a game.

And as for taunting being unrealistic, well someone else said it, in any game where magic or fanatasy is present, the notion that taunt is not realistic seems silly.

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 12:37:45 PM#110
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

But why are people so averse to this "trinity"?

Some people are very comfortable with the trinity paradigm.  But I will try to answer your question personally.

It makes forming a group harder.  No matter how many specs you give people, some people just don't want to tank or heal.  By forcing groups to have a tank and healer, you make it harder to find groups.  I don't think I need to show evidence of this.  Look at every MMO that uses the trinity as it's core mechanic; there is always a shortage of tanks and healers (especially tanks).

It's also unrealistic.  Taunts are unrealistic.  Enemies should target the players that are the largest threat to them, meaning the guy who is killing them the most.  Tanks do the least damage and therefore are the weakest threat yet taunts can keep mobs off the true threats.  It is an unrealistic mechanic to unrealistic combat.

It's limiting.  There are some variations but pretty much every encounter is a form of tank and spank.  Remove the taunt and heal mechanic and then players would have to use tactical positioning and strategic resource management to fight.  I think there would be more variations to combat.

I understand the notion of constraints or issues in relation to forming groups.

 

However, Im not sure how a thing like collision solves this. In my mind, removing stuff like healing and taunting, and the effects on possible mob/boss mechanics gives me visions of heavy kite fights or mass chaos in relation to getting people in and out from in front of the boss.

Other suggestions than collision might work better, but I think collision and trying to emulate "real life" combat mechanics might sound better than how they will actually pan out in a game.

And as for taunting being unrealistic, well someone else said it, in any game where magic or fanatasy is present, the notion seems silly.

CD isn't the solution to everything but I think it would be a start. 

Yeah, I could see kiting and chaos but I could also see complex strategy.  I'll use PnP as an example again.  The problem with MMOs is that constant healing is expected; it's part of damage mitigation.  That wasn't the case in PnP.  Fighters often completely avoided damage because their armor completely deflected the blow.  If the blow went through, it usually did full damage.  Healing was done in crisis situations; it was never used as a simple resource because healing was a scarce power.  If you had to heal, you had to heal at the right times.

Mages and clerics could also take on mobs head on in PnP because they also had tools to beef up their defenses so even if the fighter went down, the rest of the party could keep fighting.  In essence, everyone had off tank ability.  I find it odd that if your tank gets killed in a fight, the party wipes.  I'd love to see more encounters where even if some people fall in battle, there is still a reasonable chance to come out in victory. 

Realism and unrealism is relative to the world.  Sure it's unrealistic to cast fireballs but in a fantasy world, we assume it is realistic.  I have yet to find any fantasy world where screaming insults grab more attention than someone tossing a deadly fireball at you.

  Rhazmuz

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/12
Posts: 203

They say you are what you eat.. But I dont remember eating a fu**ing legend!

12/29/12 12:41:40 PM#111

Hmm, I see your point but could "taúnting" not be seen as a form of magic, albeit in a more primal/rough sense?

 

In regards to relating to PnP, I must admit I dont have much experience in that area, but are most actions not determined by dice rolls? 

 

  AwDiddums

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/09/12
Posts: 370

12/29/12 12:45:02 PM#112
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

But why are people so averse to this "trinity"?

Some people are very comfortable with the trinity paradigm.  But I will try to answer your question personally.

It makes forming a group harder.  No matter how many specs you give people, some people just don't want to tank or heal.  By forcing groups to have a tank and healer, you make it harder to find groups.  I don't think I need to show evidence of this.  Look at every MMO that uses the trinity as it's core mechanic; there is always a shortage of tanks and healers (especially tanks).

It's also unrealistic.  Taunts are unrealistic.  Enemies should target the players that are the largest threat to them, meaning the guy who is killing them the most.  Tanks do the least damage and therefore are the weakest threat yet taunts can keep mobs off the true threats.  It is an unrealistic mechanic to unrealistic combat.

It's limiting.  There are some variations but pretty much every encounter is a form of tank and spank.  Remove the taunt and heal mechanic and then players would have to use tactical positioning and strategic resource management to fight.  I think there would be more variations to combat.

In todays MMO's I'd have to say that the tools are already in place where grping is either done automatically via a dungeon finder tool or the system changes the gameplay to allow for a mishmash of classes to grp together to complete a task, where it isn't important that you have a tank/healer/dps or crowd control, so long as you have the numbers to fill the grp.

I don't believe the Holy Trinity is the problem at all, players are becoming more focused on thier own gameplay rather than community gameplay, ppl want to play an MMO on their own, and becuase of this they want to have all class abilities rolled into 1 character, thus bringing about the cries that the Holy Trinity isn't working.

I want to know my place in he game world, I NEED it to define my character, I don't want to do it all, I want my character to have limits, it's what drives me to find a grp to play alongside with, without that class definition I no longer need anyone else to support me or for me to support them, the only good that then comes from a grp would be the fact I can kill faster and perhaps have some conversation, but thats becoming a dying trait in grps aswell.

 

  Rhazmuz

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/12
Posts: 203

They say you are what you eat.. But I dont remember eating a fu**ing legend!

12/29/12 12:48:24 PM#113
Excellent points Awdiddums
  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 12:53:56 PM#114
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

Hmm, I see your point but could "taúnting" not be seen as a form of magic, albeit in a more primal/rough sense?

 

In regards to relating to PnP, I must admit I dont have much experience in that area, but are most actions not determined by dice rolls? 

 

If taunting is magical, then it is basically like a crowd control spell that mages use.  But in the context of the games I've played with taunt, it's always described as yelling at the mob to acquire attention.  It just seems silly to me.  I understand it doesn't bother you but it always seemed contrived to me.

Well, MMOs use dice rolls to some degree.  Like PnP though, you can alter the outcome by adding bonuses and penalties to your rolls.  And I'm only citing PnP to offer up an alternative method.

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 12:57:41 PM#115
Originally posted by AwDiddums

In todays MMO's I'd have to say that the tools are already in place where grping is either done automatically via a dungeon finder tool or the system changes the gameplay to allow for a mishmash of classes to grp together to complete a task, where it isn't important that you have a tank/healer/dps or crowd control, so long as you have the numbers to fill the grp.

The tool is nice but there's still a problem.  In WoW, tanks queue up instantly.  Healers take about 5 minutes.  DPS takes anywhere to 30 minutes to an hour.  And WoW is a game that allows classes to have multiple specs (which doesn't really help unless you have the gear for that spec).  So grouping is still an issue.  People just don't like to tank and heal.  Why keep it, especially since the mechanic is artificial?

  Rhazmuz

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/12
Posts: 203

They say you are what you eat.. But I dont remember eating a fu**ing legend!

12/29/12 12:58:09 PM#116
Originally posted by SpectralHunter
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

Hmm, I see your point but could "taúnting" not be seen as a form of magic, albeit in a more primal/rough sense?

 

In regards to relating to PnP, I must admit I dont have much experience in that area, but are most actions not determined by dice rolls? 

 

If taunting is magical, then it is basically like a crowd control spell that mages use.  But in the context of the games I've played with taunt, it's always described as yelling at the mob to acquire attention.  It just seems silly to me.  I understand it doesn't bother you but it always seemed contrived to me.

Well, MMOs use dice rolls to some degree.  Like PnP though, you can alter the outcome by adding bonuses and penalties to your rolls.  And I'm only citing PnP to offer up an alternative method.

I understand, Im just trying to understand alternative viewpoints.

So far, my only experience outside of "trinity" mechanics, is GW2 and I do not find that in any way, shape or form enjoyable, only more confusing and irritating. 

However there could be interesting alternatives utilizing collision, but I really has to be done well, and may only work in a specific setting. Hopefully advacement in technology will give us playable examples sooner rather than later.

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 1:21:12 PM#117
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

I understand, Im just trying to understand alternative viewpoints.

So far, my only experience outside of "trinity" mechanics, is GW2 and I do not find that in any way, shape or form enjoyable, only more confusing and irritating. 

However there could be interesting alternatives utilizing collision, but I really has to be done well, and may only work in a specific setting. Hopefully advacement in technology will give us playable examples sooner rather than later.

I wish GW2 grabbed my attention longer to try out their dungeons but I was utterly disappointed with the game.  I have noticed a lot of complaints about the lack of structure in grouping.  I don't know too much about how they did it other than knowing everyone can heal and help fallen comrades.

Bottlenecking, holding formation are just two off my head that could be utilized. But CD without taunts and limited healing might get too complex in today's MMO culture.

People are comfortable with the trinity design.  People rarely enjoy change.  So I understand why it dominates the market. 

  Ryowulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 668

12/29/12 1:53:15 PM#118

In adnd you relied on the GM not to focus fire on the clothies.

The mages also had person buffs spells, like Protection from arrows to help. Then at higher levels the mages became god-like.

In an mmo there isn't a person contoling the game, so you needed a taunt mechanic.

 

  SpectralHunter

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 386

12/29/12 2:23:13 PM#119
Originally posted by Ryowulf

In adnd you relied on the GM not to focus fire on the clothies.

The mages also had person buffs spells, like Protection from arrows to help. Then at higher levels the mages became god-like.

In an mmo there isn't a person contoling the game, so you needed a taunt mechanic.

 

Really?  Hehe, my GMs always targeted the most dangerous and most vulnerable first. 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/29/12 2:27:24 PM#120
Originally posted by Ryowulf

In adnd you relied on the GM not to focus fire on the clothies.

The mages also had person buffs spells, like Protection from arrows to help. Then at higher levels the mages became god-like.

In an mmo there isn't a person contoling the game, so you needed a taunt mechanic.

I get the feeling that the EQ/WOW combat system is so embedded in player thinking at this point that anything outside those game mechanics is simply alien.

 

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