Originally posted by Artalis

Ever heard the phrase "I want to believe"?

I remember when I heard about the founding of 38 Studios. How Curt, who was first and foremost a gamer, built a company to make a great game. I heard about how he got R.A. Salvatore and Todd McFarlane in on the IP and how Copernius was going to be the most incredible thing ever.

And then I played Reckoning. It wasn't a bad game, but it wasn't the revolutionary, mind-blowing experience I'd been hoping for and it made me worry for Copernicus. Then the company went under and so did my hopes for a truly amazing MMORPG made by gamers for gamers.

I wish you the best of luck. I'm no artist unfortunately, so I don't have anything to offer you in terms of what you are asking for. If you find yourself in the market for writers however, shoot me a pm.

 

 

My feelings exactly.  Every time I hear about a guy who wants to create a true MMO for gamers by gamers... I always think about Curt and his all-star team and his all-star funding... and a lonely little tear twinkles in the corner of my eye :(

I hope you can pull it off, man!  I truly do!

If you need someone to design GUI assets, I'll give it a shot.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by pauly6478

Originally posted by greenreen

Without a programmer next to you. I don't know how you will even know what IS possible. You can imagine all sorts of wild ideas but someone has to be able to see that and put it into code ... AND... you have the added fun of latency over a network so there is a limit on how much you can pass at once to get good response times, then wrap it all in security... unless you want to have a bunch of client side things that people exploit all the time.

Just the idea that you are starting on art before programming is scary, to me.

I think you might have the dream but without at least one full time programmer (usually the person that starts the project), you are throwing more money at it than needed.

Maybe I'm biased because I program but if you don't have a programmer early on to tell you what is impossible, I'm calling doom and gloom.

Kickstarter BTW does not regularly fund ideas, they regularly fund things where people are mostly, if not, all the way done.

Go look at the mmos that get funded and those that don't. The funded usually have at least prototypes out.

Again taking this post off topic as it wasn't to discuss the game but more to recruit. But I will reply one last time. If I made it seem as if I have no computer programmers working on this I apologize. My post above about computer programmers was in the future we will be needing more and I want them to be "players."

And in my post before yours I mention that I will not even bother with kickstarter for sometime. Because I will give the players proof before I ever ask for money.

 Developers have lots of ideas of their own.  Why would they put the time into your idea when they would be better served putting their efforts into their own design?

 Not only better served but more likely to bring to market. 

Who would an investor, be it kickstarter or a bank, be more willing to fund money to.  Someone with no experience in coding or making games, that doesn't have any idea how complicated it is or the people that are needed.  Or someone that at least knows programming - I wouldn't do either but if I had to choose I'd choose the programmer.

The lack of experience, despite what seem to believe, will seriously hinder and delay your game.

You are the lead dev in this game.  It is your vision that will bring them together you should at least know the basics for what is required to do this.

edit - You can still do it, of course, but it will hinder and delay the game while you learn it, either before you start, or on the fly with the mistakes that are made. Your choices then are to go in blindly, or have contingency and operational plans for the mistakes, or learn before you start to avoid many mistakes. 

Originally posted by pauly6478

There are 2 kinds of people in this world, those that talk about and those that do. The project will be accomplished as I have never failed a mission before.

Thanks again for your input

Best of luck in your endeavors! There is a need for more indie projects out there innovating the genre. Its where it all begins. I, for one, wish you well. Keep us posted on the progress.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by pauly6478

Originally posted by greenreen
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 Not only better served but more likely to bring to market. 

Who would an investor, be it kickstarter or a bank, be more willing to fund money to.  Someone with no experience in coding or making games, that doesn't have any idea how complicated it is or the people that are needed.  Or someone that at least knows programming - I wouldn't do either but if I had to choose I'd choose the programmer.

The lack of experience, despite what seem to believe, will seriously hinder and delay your game.

You are the lead dev in this game.  It is your vision that will bring them together you should at least know the basics for what is required to do this.

edit - You can still do it, of course, but it will hinder and delay the game while you learn it, either before you start, or on the fly with the mistakes that are made. Your choices then are to go in blindly, or have contingency and operational plans for the mistakes, or learn before you start to avoid many mistakes. 

Here's another thing that scares me for them. I work remotely and have for over 5 years. I don't cheat on my hours but nearly every person fired from our company has been because they cheated on their hours. It's so tempting to someone without character to just "pad" things and without the knowledge to know how long something should take versus how long was billed? As the person shelling out money, wouldn't you want to be able to guesstimate whether adding a button takes 5 minutes or 5 hours? Add in that the people are new programmers? Yikes, they will spend an hour or more debugging every line that they made a typo in. They won't have tools to narrow down things because they will be inexperienced and they will probably be copy/pasting so much that they don't have any idea why something might not work because they don't know the core of the language or are wet behind the ears. They won't have anything made that they can reuse and they will be constantly looking up syntax. Debugging and struggling with syntax can slow things down.

OP, I know you are not going to be deterred, I know you have a mission but everyone naysaying is only trying to give you enough information to do it right instead of making it painstaking and slow to flower. We say these things out of concern. That would be the sad reality is waiting so long for something and never getting it or getting something sub-par.

Thanks everyone for your comments. I will take all advice into consideration as we continue to move forward. I know a lot of people would feel very differently if I could post what we already have in the works. But I also understand we have all been burned by people saying they are making the next big thing. I did not really want to make the post about that because I am like most "seeing is believing" so Ill wait until I can show more when the time is right.

But regardless of if anyone thinks its a good idea or bad idea we are willing to pay for the artwork out of my own pocket so it will not effect you the gamer in anyway. 

Not completely the same and I dont' mean to make light of this person or her family but this reminds me of the CBC story I watched the other day about Shriya Shah-Klorfine who died on everest.

No climbing experience, out of shape, who hired brand spanking new guides to help her up the mountain.  No Everest is not a technical climb but she needed to be better prepared.

If she had just taken 1-2 more years to get in shape, a few more months to reserach the company. 

My old scout motto.  Hope for the best, expect the worse, what are you going to do about it.

Someone linked this a while ago. It applies here. Actually, some of the things he says are a straight rip from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGar7KC6Wiw

Originally posted by colddog04

Someone linked this a while ago. It applies here. Actually, some of the things he says are a straight rip from it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGar7KC6Wiw

 Egads thats depressing.  Glad I don't work in that industry haha.

I wish you luck! i am curious about a few things though.

1) Have you created a Game Design Document yet?

2) Email it to yourself so you have a time stamped copy, to prevent plagarism

3) Have you presented this document to someone in the industry who can give you valuable feed back about it? I know the industry sucks right now, but they are the pro's and thier feedback can help.

4) Have you created a timeline for your project

5) Have you realisticly thought about founding for this project ( I dont want to see you on Shark Tank lol)

6) Once you have you GDC created, you need to ask gamers what they think of your ideas if your making it for gamers. I'm not talkinga bout 10-20, but 100's if at all possible. You may worry about you ideas leaking, but i assure you that what you have thought of, has been thought of before. If people are really diggin what youve come up with in your GDC, then move forward with the project. 

Well looking at this it sounds more like advice than me being actually curious. Bur as i am working on my own GDC, i just thought i would offer this advice/ see how far you've gotten. 

Using The Elder Scrolls Online as an example (which has voice acting). Keep in mind:

ZeniMax Online Studios has a $300 million dollar budget.

They have over 250 employees.

They have been working on ESO for over 5 years.

Also... you will need a publisher.

I'd also recommend watching Indie Game: The Movie (it's available on NetFlix) which discusses some very successful indie game creators (Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Fez). It will probably give you a better idea of what you are getting yourself into.

Dear OP. Have you ever heard about "art style" ?

If you get 100 players to make models for your sci-fi game the modells will all look different from eachother and maybe

they won't be in sync with the other  "art styles" in the game.You can't  put "WoW"'s models into a game like GW2 cause

they don't look the same.

I say just try at least and let's see.Wihtout trying there is no success for sure.

Sci-fi is kind of a "style" that most players say no thanks to.

You will need to find and pay some real hardcore network programers if you want your game to  run smooth.

You will probably not find these guys just by saying i want freelancers but try ... maybe.

Just a good advice pay money for a network enginer and ask for advice.Tell him your ideas in details and ask for

his opinnion.I bet he will tell you as long as your company isn't called blizzard you won't be able to finance it from your

own pocket and neither will "kickstarter " help in it.

Maintaining a server park with the perfect bandwith will cost you a lot...even more that you can imagine right now.

So i will wait and see and i will try to help with the things that i can (voice over , whatever )

Good luck !

Originally posted by oreal52

Sci-fi is kind of a "style" that most players say no thanks to.

 

 

 

I totally disagree with this. What is it they want more elves and dwarfs?

Originally posted by MyTabbycat

Using The Elder Scrolls Online as an example (which has voice acting). Keep in mind:

ZeniMax Online Studios has a $300 million dollar budget.

They have over 250 employees.

They have been working on ESO for over 5 years.

Also... you will need a publisher.

I'd also recommend watching Indie Game: The Movie (it's available on NetFlix) which discusses some very successful indie game creators (Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Fez). It will probably give you a better idea of what you are getting yourself into.

 

Plus you can watch them dance and sing. http://www.twitch.tv/danielleorama/b/329164176 Yes, those are indie gamers in that movie in this video. I used to hang out with them on twitch when they casted there so I heard lots of horror stories too about the challenges. They said one day they would stream the movie so it may show up there one day.

Originally posted by MyTabbycat

Using The Elder Scrolls Online as an example (which has voice acting). Keep in mind:

ZeniMax Online Studios has a $300 million dollar budget.

They have over 250 employees.

They have been working on ESO for over 5 years.

Also... you will need a publisher.

I'd also recommend watching Indie Game: The Movie (it's available on NetFlix) which discusses some very successful indie game creators (Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Fez). It will probably give you a better idea of what you are getting yourself into.

 

Thx for the movie suggestion! will most def watch that later as it looks awesome!

Apologies. But I can not approve of the way you are approaching making a game. There are many flaws in it that makes it seem only like a dream that you're forcing to become true (Take a look at the youtube video posted, it really says wonders.)

• There is no credibility or background of you in the video game industry.
• I have tons of ideas in my head for what I believe would make my perfect MMO, that doesn't mean it will be yours or anyone elses. It will also not mean that I will actively search for strangers on a forum to help me.
• To make an MMO would be considered the highest of the high for games considering MMO development costs, upkeep, and such. Whereas small browser games can be considered the lowest of the low, MMOs require constant bug watch, server upkeep, player management, constant updates, or you'll have a wreck.
• Just being an "overseer" isn't going to do anything for your team (Infact, it could do them worse if you underestimate or overestimate their career options, jobs, pay, or whatnot.) Most teams have leaders who are well versed in the aspects of what they are creating. Even being an entrepreneur would help your credibility.
• Where will all the funding come from? You can not expect kickstarter to provide all of your funding.
• Why would people choose your sci-fi MMO over others that could be more polished in the future, such as a released planetside 2 with updates?
• It also seems like you're just aiming for what "the players want." Sadly, even this generation's MMO's know that it's nearly impossible due to cost, time restraints, development hell, bugs, cheaters and a perfect way to add it into the game to appeal to all players (Timmy, Johnny, Spike, and Vorthos). If a game would be able to simply appeal to all things the players want in a box thats attractive why hasn't it been made yet?
• Normally, Original features in MMOs are very balance-breaking. It can be fun to the user, but not for the person it's being used on (Extra Credits)
• If the development of the game is going to take so long, do you believe that you'll actually have dedicated programmers or artists who will stick with you the entire way? Will your leaving programmers be skilled enough to write simple codes for new people to understand? Will the modelers still have a base plan for what they were doing or will you have to scrap it and start again? (Duke Nukem Forever)
• You require a publisher, who may want to get their "hands" on the game so they see it fit for publishing.
• What kind of talented artists are you looking for? Y'know, my girlfriend does some pretty nice deformed art afterall.
• Where will the main HQ or area of the game take place, a cloud server? Some area?
• What language will the game engine be in? Are you going to acquire the license for an engine or create one with programmers?
• What about modeling programs or graphic art programs. Would you encourage an GNU-style GGB (GNU Compiler, GIMP, and Blender unless someone else has other programs), VSPS3D (Visual Studio, Photoshop, and 3DS Max) or some other combo? Of course this is all optional as anyone can be fluent with anything for use as long as they are portable to other software.
• How will the music be orchestrated? Who will be the main composer also?
• How about quality assurance that isn't open betas, since they usually lead to people attempting to find ways to cheat.
• How will you benefit all your employees? If they won't get paid in your job as well as in others why would they come to you? What if they are poor/in debt?

Originally posted by pauly6478

Originally posted by oreal52   Sci-fi is kind of a "style" that most players say no thanks to.

I totally disagree with this. What is it they want more elves and dwarfs?

When it comes to sci-fi and fantasy, sci-fi works well for movies and TV, fantasy works much better for games. This is in part due to the nature of the two. Fantasy is often what we want to have happen but never does, and sci-fi is often what we hope never happens, but it's possible (not necessarily probable) that it could. Basically, for most, dystopia is fun to watch and utopia is fun to play.

Just to add:

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/355/entry-2250155-why-you-shouldnt-be-making-an-mmo/

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_221/6582-Why-Your-Game-Idea-Sucks#

Originally posted by pauly6478

Originally posted by greenreen

Without a programmer next to you. I don't know how you will even know what IS possible. You can imagine all sorts of wild ideas but someone has to be able to see that and put it into code ... AND... you have the added fun of latency over a network so there is a limit on how much you can pass at once to get good response times, then wrap it all in security... unless you want to have a bunch of client side things that people exploit all the time.

Just the idea that you are starting on art before programming is scary, to me.

I think you might have the dream but without at least one full time programmer (usually the person that starts the project), you are throwing more money at it than needed.

Maybe I'm biased because I program but if you don't have a programmer early on to tell you what is impossible, I'm calling doom and gloom.

Kickstarter BTW does not regularly fund ideas, they regularly fund things where people are mostly, if not, all the way done.

Go look at the mmos that get funded and those that don't. The funded usually have at least prototypes out.

Again taking this post off topic as it wasn't to discuss the game but more to recruit. But I will reply one last time. If I made it seem as if I have no computer programmers working on this I apologize. My post above about computer programmers was in the future we will be needing more and I want them to be "players."

And in my post before yours I mention that I will not even bother with kickstarter for sometime. Because I will give the players proof before I ever ask for money.

No offense at all, I went to school to get my BA in Game Production and spend many years in the Auto industry and ran succssful repair shops,  making a game is a whole new ball game.... The issue is every game on the market has ideas and then fail at the rest because of what they think they can do.

I went to schoo thinking oh I want this game and that and even before school I did alot of work but actually working with a team its not easy and with a team that has never done it, bad idea.. I wish you  the best, but your setting your self  up.

Also your comment about Devs should not be making games, oh really, that proves you know nothing about most devs, we do not have all the say about the games we are making, its mostly about the big shots up stairs... I have worked with indies, and most fall on there face, which sucks, but all of them THINK they can do it, no , no , no..

Start smaller, learn, make smaller scale games, then go for the big dog... Bad idea, and this is why gamers show up to school and think its so easy anyone can do it, and the comment about dead lines.... Really????  I know now for a fact you have never touched 3DS max, Maya or programming, stuff happens all the time and there is nothing you can do, welcome to Game Production.....................

I seen your comments about having artists making you stuff and you deciee if your gonna pay for that or this, good luck finding an artist wanting to spend hours , and hours and then you don't pay for something you don't like... Not gonna  happen either with any decent artist that is worth anything.... You need to learn what Documentation is and plan things out my friends, concepting, there is so much more than an idea.... So much more,  you need to learn the buisness end, being a marine is one thing running a buisness in Game design is another...