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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Massively shows some honesty

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235 posts found
  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2840

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/21/12 11:09:33 AM#121
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

 

I saw that and agree.

I saw that and agreed too bt the game with all its flaws is still one of the best ever made.  Just imagine how awesome it would be with those flaws fixed?

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  SuprGamerX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 538

12/21/12 11:12:32 AM#122
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

  Aison2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 614

12/21/12 11:18:48 AM#123

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

"please guide me im to lazy/stupid to find my own path"

 

skimmed trough the linked article and it looks like a lot of the  review is a ode to "i need my babysitter in a mmo" tough the points regarding problems with questing once less play and interface for crafting are true

Pi*1337/100 = 42

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

12/21/12 11:23:49 AM#124

From those opinions I only agree with the story issue. Though that's just my opinion.

 

Oh and I will say the game can always be better, its a good start least for me so eh well.

 

Oh my I almost forgot...enjoy life and peace.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  QSatu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/06
Posts: 1768

12/21/12 11:39:19 AM#125
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

gW2 would win with any mmo released since WoW easily, even with it flaws. there is no competition.

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

12/21/12 11:46:39 AM#126
Originally posted by QSatu
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

gW2 would win with any mmo released since WoW easily, even with it flaws. there is no competition.

Arent opinions great?

  QSatu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/06
Posts: 1768

12/21/12 11:54:42 AM#127
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by QSatu
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

gW2 would win with any mmo released since WoW easily, even with it flaws. there is no competition.

Arent opinions great?

Everyone writing on this forum is stating their opinions.  [mod edit]

  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2677

12/21/12 11:58:57 AM#128
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

1 guy bash the game so hard.

That guy also posts incorrect information and many of its complaints are about the game not being more like games the guy prefer.

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  Eudaimon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 117

12/21/12 12:01:57 PM#129

Always good to see someone look at the positives as well as negatives.

That said, I don't agree with some of the points -

Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear  - this is kind of true, but then again, being a "jack of all trades" seems a lot more workable than in other games where one is doing (broadly) one thing e.g. tanking, healing or dpsing, so I don't see that fitting oneself into a role is as necessary as it would be in traditional "trinity" games.  I can quite see how someone who likes the "trinity" gameplay style would be confused and/or unimpressed, though.

Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements - pretty much agree with this - I'd really like to see Anet do some work here

Area flow is problematic - several areas where I disagree with their review -

Firstly, Karma vendors are not the best sources of items when levelling unless one has karma to burn - it's easier to either buy off the TP, take a hand-me-down if an alt or even buy the white vendor gear (sure, it's not optimal, but gear is relatively unimportant in GW2 when compared with many games, especially when levelling).  I therefore can't see why it's a big deal re the karma vendors.  For my characters I've pretty much saved my karma for later, only buying recipes, crafting resources or the odd item with a nice skin or an amusing quote.

Secondly, I don't understand why the reviewer feels that he ought to be forced to the next zone?  I personally find that wanting to explore the world and see what it's like is motivation enough

Thirdly, there is motivation to explore other zones...if you're a crafter (and especially a chef), as it's only by going to new places that you'll obtain some of the resources either because some resources are account bound or others are too expensive on the TP to get all that one needs in a cost-effective manner.

Crafting is a freaking mess - it doesn't seem any worse than many other MMOs' crafting systems, and I think the reviewer is going about it the wrong way.  He says that making a  craft 20 item only gives experience towards L21, and implies that there's an unnecessary amount of making useless items.  Agreed one has often outlevelled the items by the time that one can craft them but usually, I level my craft skills by discovery, which increases my craft skill by several points whenever I discover a new recipe, so doesn't feel terribly grindy to me, as although I'm making useless items, I'm not having to make very many of them.   Chef is a little different to the other professions too, IMO, and is a bit more fun, although it does eat up the bank space

The story is weak - pretty much agreed - though there are some amusing bits of narrative (I like some of Tybalt's lines, for example) and the voice actors do well with what they're given, for the most part (though Adelbern's cut scenes make me cringe).  As for the narrative of the main story, it doesn't really hang together very well IMO

 

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3584

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

12/21/12 12:18:55 PM#130

Thanks. That was certainly interesting to read.  One doesn't see much of that type of constructive criticism these days. One is either a fan kiddie, or a "hater"...<rolls eyes>

I've noticed the same problems when I played the game. Its odd that they managed to get so many things right, but seriously messed up some others. Design by commitee perhaps?

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

12/21/12 12:23:37 PM#131
Originally posted by QSatu
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by QSatu
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

gW2 would win with any mmo released since WoW easily, even with it flaws. there is no competition.

Arent opinions great?

Everyone writing on this forum is stating their opinions. [mod edit]

You assume to much

  Kingmob23

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 77

12/21/12 12:24:54 PM#132
I agree with most of the articles assessment with the promlems the game has on the pve side of things. I think the idea of de's are great but didn't quite like the implementation of them in the game for reasons that were stated in the article. I'm hopping the expansion address this issue as I think the game has great potential but it is in need of some tweaking.
  Zalmon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 338

12/21/12 12:26:26 PM#133
Originally posted by QSatu
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by QSatu
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Really? They bash the game so hard , but hey, let's give it "Game of the Year" because quite frankly what else is there? Goes to show how pathetic 2012 was in the MMO world.   Seriously , if we compare 2012's releases to GW2 , then yeah GW2 is a pretty freaking amazing game. Compare GW2 to releases since 2008 , it barely makes the top 20.  All in all , one game has to win GOTY , so it's a toss up.

gW2 would win with any mmo released since WoW easily, even with it flaws. there is no competition.

Arent opinions great?

Everyone writing on this forum is stating their opinions. [mod edit]

Yeah everyone is giving their opinion but when opinions start becoming arrogant and absolute don't be surprised if people making it get called out.

Even i had a hard time digesting your opinion regarding 'there is no compeition'.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

12/21/12 3:05:02 PM#134
Originally posted by BadSpock

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

 1. Unclear only to those that were not able to get their heads out of the tiny little box it was placed in by MMO companies unable to think differently. The holy trinity was one of the worst ideas in RPG history, thank you D&D.

2. Yes, they do. Wish there were more of them but this is a damn fine start to the drab click on NPC, accept quest without reading because the story doesnt MATTER when all they are asking you to do is go get 10 of x from y which is the case almost ALL OF THE TIME in MMOs.

3. Area flow was no different than any other themepark games flow. You start here, you go there and when your level increases you move forward some more.

4. The only gripe with crafting is the heavy reliance on special items. Other than that this is the first crafting system in a very LONG TIME that actually allows you to get the materials for items to make things AT YOUR LEVEL...most games the crafting is 10 or so levels OFF and you dont get materials for level 20 items until you are around level 30! I do however wish they would expand it to include some vanity non-gear/buff realited items.

5. The story is right on par with World of Warcrafts/EverQuests...but behind SWTORs in quality level.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  thanoskkk

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/07
Posts: 240

12/21/12 3:07:27 PM#135
disagree with crafting, i find it great

He that lives upon Hope dies farting.

  semantikron

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/07
Posts: 260

12/21/12 6:41:35 PM#136

[mod edit]  Compaining that the DE system isn't an on-rails system from 1 to 80....  wtf?

just to clarify.  The DE system is essentially the game saying "Hey, here's some fun stuff you might want to do" and the author is saying "Eff Off.  I don't want to have fun, I just want to get to 80, thanks."

Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

12/21/12 7:21:56 PM#137
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by Zalmon
Originally posted by Volkon

Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

 

It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

Don't feel bad.  Volkon is an obvious GW2 fanboi.  Just look at his recent posts regarding such.  He can't be budged at all.  :D  At least he's civil about it though, I'll give him that.

I don't consider him civil when he proclaims my preferred play style as archaic.  When classes are done right, it's a beautiful thing.  (EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, CoH, DAoC, WoW)  Just as the trinity is a valid play style and no better nor worse than twitch / action combat.  I suppose I could just turn around and proclaim him and those like him that they were brain washed in their earlier gaming days by consoles and are now bastardizing the PC MMO genre with their twitchy game mechanics and ruining things for an entire gaming population that originated this genre plays here specifically to get away from consoles and console type games.

Archaic as in old-fashioned. Outdated in my opinion. If "archaic" is the worst I'm throwing at you I can't be all bad, no?

 

Oh... never played console games, been strictly PC. Well... unless you count Pong and my old Atari... but that's dating me there. Ah, the old 8088 computer with it's 20 Meg hard drive and 5 1/4" floppy...

Of course it's insulting and no better than turning around and saying one play style requires no skill over another.  It is not outdated, the problem is that gamers like you never liked it in the first place and prefer action combat over slower paced combat.  Which is fine, but don't put down another's play style just because you don't like it.  My issue with gamers like you is that you have been so incredibly vocal about it, that developers are completely shying away from slower paced combat, so much so that over the last year and over the next few years, there will not be a single slow paced MMO released and that is a big problem for me.

 

Never liked it in the first place? After years of being a pally tank or very good hunter in WoW I certainly don't qualify as one who never liked it. 

 

I simply out-grew it.

 

 

OK, OK, sorry... that was meant to get a rise out of you and I apologize. (It's kind of funny though.) Seriously, I used to be fully entrenched in the trinity back in the day (pre-Cata). I could tank with the best of them (good old 9-6-9 rotation) while still being able to grab rogue adds, or I could burn out enough dps to make the best tanks sweat. I had fun, too, a lot of it. It... just did get old. Became too automated. There was nothing new to learn once you had the script down for any dungeon. You stood there, you did your rotation, don't stand in the fire, blame the hunters. I enjoyed it, but I don't miss it. I see that style of combat now as a relic of the past... an era in MMOs that we're moving out of these days into more active and situationally aware combat. In GW2, rotations are gone. Staring at other people health bars are gone. Watching what's actually happening in the fight, that's in now. Crippling or interrupting a foe that's about to whack an ally, that's in now. I dps, I buff allies and remove conditions from them. I dance amongst my clones like Baryshnikov on stage, using the right shatters as the situation demands.  So yes, that trinity style, to me, is archaic. A relic of the past best left there.

 

But it looks good on you.

Then you better hope your preferred play style remains viable throughout the years or you will find yourself being written off in this genre and something tells me you wouldn't go quietly either.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2665

12/21/12 7:32:28 PM#138
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by BadSpock

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

 1. Unclear only to those that were not able to get their heads out of the tiny little box it was placed in by MMO companies unable to think differently. The holy trinity was one of the worst ideas in RPG history, thank you D&D.

2. Yes, they do. Wish there were more of them but this is a damn fine start to the drab click on NPC, accept quest without reading because the story doesnt MATTER when all they are asking you to do is go get 10 of x from y which is the case almost ALL OF THE TIME in MMOs.

3. Area flow was no different than any other themepark games flow. You start here, you go there and when your level increases you move forward some more.

4. The only gripe with crafting is the heavy reliance on special items. Other than that this is the first crafting system in a very LONG TIME that actually allows you to get the materials for items to make things AT YOUR LEVEL...most games the crafting is 10 or so levels OFF and you dont get materials for level 20 items until you are around level 30! I do however wish they would expand it to include some vanity non-gear/buff realited items.

5. The story is right on par with World of Warcrafts/EverQuests...but behind SWTORs in quality level.

What??? DnD?  The trinity was created by the modern MMO.  There was no trinity in DnD.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

12/21/12 7:47:42 PM#139
Originally posted by grimal

What??? DnD?  The trinity was created by the modern MMO.  There was no trinity in DnD.

 Are you freaking serious....The first MMORPG with Graphics was NeverWinter Nights Online back in 1991, it had the holy trinity which Meridian 59 used in 1996 and EverQuest which is D&D with another name...wowzers.

Original D&D Black Box had 3 classes. Cleric (Healer), Fighter (tank), Mage(DPS).

It wasnt until Greyhawk was released that other classes started

to appear, Greyhawk brought the Theif (another DPS) and the Paladin (tank/healer). it wasnt until the player handbook came out that the first non-trinity class was created...the BARD.

Everything else all falls into the trinity catagory BECAUSE they are taken from D&D.

/fighter/berserker/avenger/barbarian = dps

paladin = tank/healer

warrior/warlord/ardent = tank/dps

Warden/batlemaid/swordmage = tank

ranger/scout = dps

theif/rogue = dps

wizard/mage/elementalist/necro/warlock = dps

cleric/priest = healer

Druid/shaman/monk = healer/dps

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2665

12/21/12 8:56:30 PM#140
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by grimal

What??? DnD?  The trinity was created by the modern MMO.  There was no trinity in DnD.

 Are you freaking serious....The first MMORPG with Graphics was NeverWinter Nights Online back in 1991, it had the holy trinity which Meridian 59 used in 1996 and EverQuest which is D&D with another name...wowzers.

Original D&D Black Box had 3 classes. Cleric (Healer), Fighter (tank), Mage(DPS).

It wasnt until Greyhawk was released that other classes started

to appear, Greyhawk brought the Theif (another DPS) and the Paladin (tank/healer). it wasnt until the player handbook came out that the first non-trinity class was created...the BARD.

Everything else all falls into the trinity catagory BECAUSE they are taken from D&D.

/fighter/berserker/avenger/barbarian = dps

paladin = tank/healer

warrior/warlord/ardent = tank/dps

Warden/batlemaid/swordmage = tank

ranger/scout = dps

theif/rogue = dps

wizard/mage/elementalist/necro/warlock = dps

cleric/priest = healer

Druid/shaman/monk = healer/dps

Wow.  Ok, first off, DPS stands for damage per second.  Combat in DnD was never based on real time.  There were turns or rounds, so how could it have been Damage Per Second?  It couldn't have been!

The Trinity was developed back with the first gen of MMOs (EQ 1).  Made up of the Tank, Healer and DPS.  DnD never had such a term for this combat style because it didn't come into play until the MMO!!

True each class was based off an archetype, healer, warrior, etc, but the actual term trinity as we use it now was coined by and for the MMO genre.

Please, show me anywhere in any of the pre-MMO genre DnD books where it specifically states the trinity.  You'd be hard pressed.

The only trinity you will possibly find mentioned is that of the three core books: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and the Monster Manual...but those referred to the three books, not the Tank/DPS/Healer trinity you are talking about.

Second, EQ 1 may be a fantasy based online RPG but it is not Dungeons and Dragons. 

I can't believe I am actually needing to post this. Did you even play Dungeons and Dragons PNP?

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

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