Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

I kept myself pretty well geared as I was leveling through crafting - if you read further in my post it was a great source of XP and I did nearly 100% discovery to level it up.

What I found pointless about it was that I could just buy dropped gear off the TP or using Karma or buying sets via Racial vendors that had the same if not better stats for less investment of time/gold.

I haven't really played in a while, but like WoW and post-WoW MMOs the crafted gear is really just "option B" to gear you get as loot or from other such sources.

I have never been a big fan of crafting in MMOs - the only game I really liked it in was UO and it was because it was really like the only way to get gear.

So I'm one of those people that feels that unless everything is crafted by players, it's always pointless and second-fiddle to drops.

Huh. You actually drove him to deleting his account.

BAD SPOCK!!

 

Good. He had such a one sided view of GW 2 that almost all his post was about how great GW 2 was and if you dont think so then it is obviously something wrong with you. Most likely he quit because he could not stand so many negative posts about this game. Like he took it personally or something.

If you guys are looking into roles of professions, the following is about PvP but still affects PvE somewhat:

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012

Class balance philosophies
We normally try to employ metered and controlled balance changes with each pass, rather than huge reductions or improvements to classes. We want to get all classes on the same playing field, and we want to avoid “whack-a-mole” style balance. HUGH increases and HUGE decreases lead to meta instability, and thusly, we try to make multiple small tweaks rather than putting in massive changes that we have to later correct.

When designing and balancing the classes, we try to make sure that class roles and identities stay intact. So, in doing so, we make sure that there are rules and boundaries outlining the capabilities and weaknesses of each class.

• Warrior
  • We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.
• Guardian
  • The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.
• Ranger
  • The ranger class combines its own innate abilities with the skills of their pets. We’ve balanced the class around the idea that you always have a pet with you to aid in any fight. The fact that the ranger can have multiple pets allows them to combine their pets in ways that most impact the current fight. We want the Ranger to have some of the evasion enjoyed by the Thief, as well as the mobility other classes employ. The class is able to deal physical or condition damage, and it can do this in melee or at range.
• Engineer
  • The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.
• Thief
  • Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.
• Mesmer
  • Mesmers rely on illusions in order to accomplish their goals. They need illusions to accomplish some of their highest damage and control, and without the illusions, they become fairly fragile. They can deal with enemy boons better than most classes, but enemy conditions can often be a problem. They share some of the stealth and mobility that the Thief enjoys, but suffer from a low health pool if you get past all their tricks.
• Ele
  • We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elemetnalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.
• Necro
  • The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

I don't see how an article of criticisms is "against the game". I guess it would read that 3way to someone who is "against the game", but people who like the game can still field criticisms of that game. (Shocking, I know).

As to the bullet points:

• Roles - Underexplained? Yes. Unclear to people who learn to play the game? No. There is a learning curve to the game and a lot of depth. The game does do a pretty poor job explaining things to new players, but I think many people who get over the initial hump appreciate the depth the game has to offer.
• Dynamic Events - I have to disagree on this one. For me, they not only work as a Quest replacement, but they have rendered quest based gaming in it's common forms annoying and obsolete.
• Area Flow - Sorry, I disagree with this one completely. Level scaling and the huge redundancy of world space and content provide players with a ton of freedom in how and where they want to play. The complaint is that the game isn't linear. Well, they are right, but who wants linear in an MMO? Besides, even if you are level 30 and still playing in lower level zones, it just doesn't matter.
• Crafting - Well, I disagree on this one as well. I can imagine the crafting being better, so I thought I might find something to agree with here, but the author is just compaining about having to think while they craft. To say that GW2 crafting is too difficult to understand or requires too much effort is just laughable.
• The Story - Is some of the story weak? Yes, it is. Unfortunately, some of the best story is to be found among the less played races, while humans tend to have the weakest story, which just amplifies the impression. For the voice acting, I've heard much worse in a number of games, but it is inconsistant, which does point towards poor direction, which is too bad. Looking at how the Personal Story was touted a year or two prior to release, it seems pretty clear that they had to cut back dramatically on the original scope of the story, most notably RE: branching and the number of permutations of the second half of the story progression.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

I kept myself pretty well geared as I was leveling through crafting - if you read further in my post it was a great source of XP and I did nearly 100% discovery to level it up.

What I found pointless about it was that I could just buy dropped gear off the TP or using Karma or buying sets via Racial vendors that had the same if not better stats for less investment of time/gold.

I haven't really played in a while, but like WoW and post-WoW MMOs the crafted gear is really just "option B" to gear you get as loot or from other such sources.

I have never been a big fan of crafting in MMOs - the only game I really liked it in was UO and it was because it was really like the only way to get gear.

So I'm one of those people that feels that unless everything is crafted by players, it's always pointless and second-fiddle to drops.

Huh. You actually drove him to deleting his account.

BAD SPOCK!!

 

Good. He had such a one sided view of GW 2 that almost all his post was about how great GW 2 was and if you dont think so then it is obviously something wrong with you. Most likely he quit because he could not stand so many negative posts about this game. Like he took it personally or something.

Pot meet kettle

Originally posted by Shannia

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To peak your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Those are some serious issues, but as much as I love the game, I have to agree with the writer of the article.

How does a AAA MMORPG get released with those serious flaws?  I believe it's because projects are so large these companies end up running out of money during development and that decisions have to be made on what they will address after release.

This problem has been getting more profound over the past five years.  Prime examples are AoC, DFO, and WAR-Z.  Each of these games way over promised and seriously underachieved at release.  We all know the history of AoC & DFO, but look at WAR-Z.  Their release was so bad, Valve pulled the game from Steam and now the developer of WAR-Z is defending his company to the point I don't know if they will ever recover from this launch...

Point is, it is obvious companies are running out of cash because no one wants to release products that end up with reviews like what WAR-Z is getting right now.  To help curb this, why not have these companies to have paid beta playing with full wipes at the actually release?  The players can pay a one time fee that is subtracted from the retail price at release.  Players get to sneak peak the game helping debug while developers get a much needed cash infusion the last six months of game development before launch.

 

You missed a MMO that was released with many problems Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Not only was it problematic upon release it is still problematic, being F2P hasnt changed it for the better.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by BadSpock
Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

 

---

 

Whoa! A critique? On a video game? By a video game journalist? Thats insane!

Indeed! That would never happen at MMORPG.com, and certainly not when it's a release from one of the bigger US studios or publishers. Those can do no wrong, at least not during the first 6 months after release. :)

I've switched to Massively.com for my MMORPG news some time ago. Doesn't mean I always share their opinion, but at Massively they have room for different opinions while MMORPG.com is only joining the hype train.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

The only thing I agree with is the story being weak.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To peak your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

 

Only thing I can agree with are the story the rest not so much.

DE works perfectly I don't see how this don't work in his mind.

Area flow, I guess if you try to bumrush thrue zones then yes the flow might be odd that the next zone is 5 levels above you, try to stick around longer in the same zone or switch to another in the same level range (If this is what he mean with area flow problematic)

 

Crafting is weak? How so, gather mats, mix em get recipes how is that a freaking mess?

I agree.  He compares the issues Gw2 has with other games that don't use the same mechanics.  Since it doesnt work the way he wants or expects then by all means it must be a mess.  Funny how honest always ends up meaning negative.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

As a big fan of GW2, and avid supporter, let me comment on this critique.

The roles are not adequately explained, and I don't know how they could be.  In one chain of events, while playing my thief I went from kiting mobs to keep them off the npc's so that the rest of the people could clean up on one defend point and then come and help me clean up on my defend point. After that we went to the next part in the chain where we were the attackers and I was pretty much just dps. After that the next part in the chain we were fighting a champion, and my role switched to actively blinding the champ every couple seconds if possible to negate his damage, while everyone else burned him down.  So how do you explain when to actively switch roles from one time to the next?

Dynamic events don't work as good as hoped in their role as quest replacements, but the potential for DE's to improve is massive compared to the standard questing systems.

Area flow is a problem in every mmo I've played.

Crafting is a mess? I'm not really pleased with the crafting end of things, but I have never been impressed with the crafting end of things, in any game.

The story is not as weak as people say,  but the voiceovers could definately be improved.

The fact of walking around in a world where things are actively going on around you that you can take part in, is awesome.

The way that they tell individual stories within quest chains that play out in front of you, is great.

The pace that the game can bring during PvE is magnificent.

The fact that I can actually be happy to see someone fighting the boss I want to kill, is superb.

The way that I can start working with some random person that just happened to be in the same area, and fighting together towards a similar goal, without hesitation or concern, is fantastic.

The battle to protect your seige weaponry while it gets built from an onslaught of attackers and then hearing the glorious KACHUNK! of the trebuchets firing their payload across the sky is a magnificent thing.  If you haven't heard a half dozen trebuchets firing and watched the smoldering projectiles soar through the air to their targets, you really are missing out.

This game isn't perfect, and no game ever has been. However, GW2 does some things is such spectacular fashion, that it deserves the acclaim it is receiving. No matter how much certain people might like to see GW2 be taken down a peg or two, the game earns its awards, and it will continue to get better. 

If people want to hate, then let them hate but there is no respect gained from negativity.

I agree that the professions aren't explained clearly... but I actually thought that was a pro, not a con.

And the story is kind of ridiculous.  I think this is so because of ANet's desire to appeal to all ages.  Don't look now, but LOTR and Star Wars are silly sometimes too.  When you appeal to a wider market, you have to take the good with the bad I guess.. which would explain the Ewoks.

A good idea would be integrating deeper combat training with personal stories, or even hearts. Players should be explicitly taught that his class can be a tank, healer, and DPS on the fly, and that roles aren't pre-determined before a battle starts. This training quest must be done either accompanied by other players, or NPCs. The quests should subject the player in various combat scenario, with a gauge on how well he did.

A "role" in GW2 changes depending on the demands of the fight. When playing GW2 I always think of playing it the way I do with Darksiders, or The Elder Scrolls. I am self sufficient, but that doesn't mean I can take down any opponent by myself.

Agree with most of their words about Crafting and Weak Story.

Area Flow is full of "What if" scenarios, which all add up to freedom of playstyle. Using your brain helps here too.

Quest Replacement and Dynamic Events. They completed removed any focus on <3s (and other experience features) and put it all on DEs. Also, at lvl 70+ you gain the last 10 lvls incredibly fast by gathering skill points, waypoints, and points of interest. Way too much focus on DEs...I skipped plenty of them while lvling alts.

Roles, I don't like games holding my hand and treating me like someone with a learning impairment. Use your brain. This can also be said to the TSW builds. Some thing just suck when paired up.

Not sure if they're showing "honesty" or if they had to do a write up in a short time period. For me, some of these arguments are really lame.

I don't get it....

This type of journalism is crummy honestly.  The writer basically gives a very negative view on GW2 (some of which I agreed with, some of which I didn't) and then turns around and says that it is actually a very great game (and therefore deserving of their Game of the Year Award).

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Originally posted by rwyan
I don't get it....

 

This type of journalism is crummy honestly.  The writer basically gives a very negative view on GW2 (some of which I agreed with, some of which I didn't) and then turns around and says that it is actually a very great game (and therefore deserving of their Game of the Year Award).

 

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Its called objectivity. People are trained to think they have to either 100% love or hate something. Its an unfortunate byproduct of living in a capitalistic society. Its not human nature to always be all in or out about everything. But we are conditioned to think that way because its easier to sell.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

Sure, the game is far from perfect right now. I think the DEs still replaces quests pretty well but they do need more work and can be improved a lot.

I dont see how crafting is a mess though, I thought it was pretty simple and I personally only had group dynamic issues in the first 2 dungeons I played but I do know some people who took a lot longer to get used to that (I played loads of GW1 so that was probably the reason it was an easier adjustment for me).

As for the story, it is weak but so is all MMOs story. You just cant compare MMOs with a good singleplayer game there.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Tough the fact is true that DE´s dont work as quest replacements, i will miss them in any MMO that does not have them, they are just plain awesome.  As a side note however, when soloing event chains in lower populated areas, they play exactly like quests..you just need to wayt a few secconds for the next step. But when zerging them, you miss out on most important info and have no clue whats going on.

And maybe i am the only one that likes the stories, some are really fun. They are not the best ever but certainly acceptable. And the instanced gameplay that comes with the stories is just sweet and awesome and gives a shift of pace.

For PvE i think it might be better to stick with the old trinity (Tank/healer/crowd controller) it allways worked great for me, and just make it so that all classes can spec as all 3 of these combined with multiple saved specs and easy switching.

Originally posted by eyelolled

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

As a big fan of GW2, and avid supporter, let me comment on this critique.

 

The roles are not adequately explained, and I don't know how they could be.  In one chain of events, while playing my thief I went from kiting mobs to keep them off the npc's so that the rest of the people could clean up on one defend point and then come and help me clean up on my defend point. After that we went to the next part in the chain where we were the attackers and I was pretty much just dps. After that the next part in the chain we were fighting a champion, and my role switched to actively blinding the champ every couple seconds if possible to negate his damage, while everyone else burned him down.  So how do you explain when to actively switch roles from one time to the next?

 You dont need to explain when to switch but maybe have some typical archetype builds that people could use? For example I tried in vain to be a support healer with my Elementalist and even at level 80 I struggled to find a build which allowed me to do that on a consistent basis.

Dynamic events don't work as good as hoped in their role as quest replacements, but the potential for DE's to improve is massive compared to the standard questing systems.

 How do you figure? For quests you can easily add more of them. DE's are more dificult to just add as they are sort of roaming type of quests and need to be in some sort of context in the current zone. Which is why they are more fun than standard quests but that does also make them harder to design well. At the end of the day DE's are nothing but your standard ThemePark quests but more complex.

Area flow is a problem in every mmo I've played.

 Never saw this as a big issue. Standard problem in ThemeParks...

Crafting is a mess? I'm not really pleased with the crafting end of things, but I have never been impressed with the crafting end of things, in any game.

The crafting in EQ 2 was more fun and interactive and you had dependencies between crafting professions which created an economy for it.  

The story is not as weak as people say,  but the voiceovers could definately be improved.

Single player story in an MMO... yeah not sure why I would care about that. If I want to play good single player stories then I will buy a single player RPG like Dragon Age. In those games atleast it makes sense that you are the hero to save the world because there is only one of you. In MMOs it makes no sense because you have world saving heroes all over the place.

The fact of walking around in a world where things are actively going on around you that you can take part in, is awesome.

Except it does not matter much if you do or dont because there is nothing really at stake here. So a DE stage fails, so what? It is almost of no consequence.

The way that they tell individual stories within quest chains that play out in front of you, is great.

The pace that the game can bring during PvE is magnificent.

Dont know what you mean about these two. Again it sounds like a single player RPG would do a better job at this.

The fact that I can actually be happy to see someone fighting the boss I want to kill, is superb.

Why? That just makes it easier to play the game and removes the need to be social and get friends to help you take down difficult mobs.

The way that I can start working with some random person that just happened to be in the same area, and fighting together towards a similar goal, without hesitation or concern, is fantastic.

Yeah but you cant work against each other which removes the competetive component from it. I dont think that is a good thing. I play MMOs to cooperate OR compete with other people, not just cooperate.

The battle to protect your seige weaponry while it gets built from an onslaught of attackers and then hearing the glorious KACHUNK! of the trebuchets firing their payload across the sky is a magnificent thing.  If you haven't heard a half dozen trebuchets firing and watched the smoldering projectiles soar through the air to their targets, you really are missing out.

Yeah and then it goes back and fort ad nauseum and has little meaning either way. War with nothing at stake is not a war, its just a game. And even games can have something at stake (money, fame etc), here it does not matter either way because the rewards are miniscule and there is no fame system to know who has excelled.

This game isn't perfect, and no game ever has been. However, GW2 does some things is such spectacular fashion, that it deserves the acclaim it is receiving. No matter how much certain people might like to see GW2 be taken down a peg or two, the game earns its awards, and it will continue to get better. 

The game is your typical standard ThemePark with a few curveballs thrown in. The only reason it got the awards is because the competition right now is so piss-poor.

If people want to hate, then let them hate but there is no respect gained from negativity.

 And praising something which does not deserve praising is not good either.

 

Originally posted by KhinRunite

A good idea would be integrating deeper combat training with personal stories, or even hearts. Players should be explicitly taught that his class can be a tank, healer, and DPS on the fly, and that roles aren't pre-determined before a battle starts. This training quest must be done either accompanied by other players, or NPCs. The quests should subject the player in various combat scenario, with a gauge on how well he did.

A "role" in GW2 changes depending on the demands of the fight. When playing GW2 I always think of playing it the way I do with Darksiders, or The Elder Scrolls. I am self sufficient, but that doesn't mean I can take down any opponent by myself.

 Eh... no, you can't be a tank, healer or dps on the fly. That's the problem... there are still people that think in the old T/H/D trinity. Just because you had aegis on you and took a hit without damage doesn't mean you were tanking for that hit. Just because you laid down an AoE healing field to help out allies doesn't mean you were a healer that fight. Everyone is (well, should be) doing things during a fight that cover all the aspects of damage, control and support. Until people realize that and it sinks in they'll be under the illusion that "roles aren't well defined". Combat flows when you realize there are no roles.