Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

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Originally posted by Volkon
Roles.. of course they're "horribly underexplained and unclear". There never was the intention of "roles" such as in trinity based games. If you actually look at your skills and traits it becomes clear that you're meant to do a bit of everything at the right times. My mesmer will be dealing damage, removing boons, applying conditions, knocking back foes, removing conditions on myself or allies... all situationally. I'm not a tank, a healer or an agent of dps.

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As a self-professed "fanboy" of GW2 you should know that GW2 does indeed have a trinity of roles.

 

ArenaNet has been saying from the very beginning that they didnt remove the trinity they just changed it.

The combat roles for GW2 are damage, support and control.

Lastly, the roles are very much "horribly underexplained and unclear".

What's there to explain?

Let's see. You choose elementalist (he is a perfect example of no set roles), when attuned to fire, you are dps, you click F2 and BOOM! YOu are support, you click F3 and BOOM! YOu are control and dps, you click F4 and BOOM! You are now "tenky dps"... Elementalist is the simplest example how you can be anything during a single fight. There's no roles to be explained...just that you can be everything to some degree.

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless - but it's a nice way to gain some extra XP.

-I never once had to make any "useless filler items" if you aren't discovering new recipes to progress you're doing it wrong. It's not hard once you figure out the patterns. Piece A + Piece B + Loot from Monsters = easily 5-6 variations per item range super easy to level up crafting this way.

-I will however agree on the roles and combat. I like the trinity. Sure it's pretty straight foward and been done to death, but I found I really, really like and need that specialization in a group setting to really enjoy the game. I did a handful of story mode and a handful of explorable in GW2 and every single dungeon was (for the most part) just as the author here describes. Not saying that is how it is, I'm sure with more time invested and some more skilled/experienced group mates my experiences could have been different - but they were not.

-The lack of roles does work well for PvP though - I'm not a big fan of "pocket healer" PvP at all - and I haven't seen a game do tanks "right" in PvP since the early days of WAR - though even they didn't get it 100%.

-I also believe the dynamic events didn't live up to their promise. They are truly static events that happen at somewhat random intervals. I think the real limit here is technology. I flat out stop playing almost immediately once I got my first toon to Orr and saw what it was... very, very disapointing. Same with the "epic" dragon fights. I was so underwhelmed by The Sunless I almost quit that day, but lasted a few more till I got to Orr.

-I both love and dislike the flow of leveling and the map organization. I like that I can go anywhere and do something meaningful for the progression of my character with downranking, but I also dislike how outside of the personal story there is no real push to explore and go to new zones outside of your own interest as an explorer - which for me faded somewhat quickly.

-With crafting really as a tool for XP gain I didn't feel the need to really farm nodes in older zones to progress my craft - for the most part I never had to as I always had way too much gathered materials and ended up having to farm or purchase the mob dropped pieces.

-The story was very hit or miss. I thought the voice acting was fine. I've only done the Vigil storyline stuff but again I think the biggest flaw here is technology as well as of course time to develope alternate storylines. The first 20 levels of story were much better as it was personalized and unique to your race/background but once you got into the Order lines it was all kind of "meh."

-I kept feeling like they were trying to be epic but were so, so, so limited by the technology to truly present us with massive, epic scale fights and situations. The siege of the island on Lion's Arch was a major disapointment and the last time I touched the personal story. TOR really had this problem too, nothing was really all that "epic" but perhaps I'm just expecting too much. The only game to really grab me with that sense of scale and portion and epicness recently was Battlefield 3, though I have heard CoD: BO2 story though short is just crazy huge in scale and epic proportion.

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

There are no roles, that is why they aren't explained and unclear.

What you do in a battle depends of:

- the actual situation;

- the skills you have equipped,

- your traits,

- the team mates professions,

- the team mates skills and traits.

So you have two choices - you either plan exactly how you going to play the encounter with the rest of the team, from traits, to skills, to weapon loadouts, to consumables or you have a build and adapt as you go.

You have a toolbox and a team and your role is to use it to your best ability.

No, the game won't direct you.

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

"Matt Daniel did an excellent job discussing this in his at-launch review of GW2; he quite eloquently stated that the game's dynamic events are really static events occurring at random times.(...)

The first is that they get annoying when you want to do anything else in the world. Warhammer Online's public quests had a similar issue: When there are only a handful of them in a given zone, you're going to be seeing them repeatedly."

First they are static but apparently they have the ability to interfere with your gameplay, making the world different. I would say they are doing their job.

So what is the problem of them repeating? Don't games have quests that can be repeated? Don't games have the same quest over and over in a different place, just with a different name?

What do you do in the Open World of other games once the quests are completed? Nothing because there is no reason to be there in the first place.

"The same is true if you have two dozen events in a given area. Stay around long enough and you'll see them happen time and again, with nothing more interesting the second time than the first. The game seems to assume you're going to be moving on to another zone by then, but dynamic events alone won't get you the levels you need because there just aren't enough of them."

Oh, I didn't know that there is only 1 area per level range...

"And that leads to a connected issue and the other reason that the events don't work as designed: They're often reliant on someone kicking off the chain or a bunch of people being around. When that doesn't happen, the events don't work. Either they expect a bigger population to successfully complete the objectives or the series never kicks off. Or the event starts and stops before you know it's happening, meaning you walk in just as it's wrapping up."

So the events are nothing but something happening at a random timer, but then they require someone to kick off the chain or a bunch of people around.

Someone doesn't know what they are talking about.

The net result is that they feel as repetitive as RIFT's repeated, well, rifts, but with the sense that skipping one isn't optional. Instead of breaking out of the rut of going to various quest hubs and picking up another quest, they drive you into a rut of dashing around looking for events and eventually giving up while filling out maps.

They are static, on a random timer and you will see them very often, but they are also elusive and dependant on other people to trigger them...

Man make up your mind!

I've told it before and I'll repeat it - you'll never know what you going to get from your play session and I guess that is the control that this guy is missing.

The control of doing something without the game throwing a DE on the path, the control of choosing where to go instead of being taken sideways by DE chains just popping etc

-Area flow is problematic

"Unfortunately, this can be problematic, starting with the fact that the game never forces you to move on.

See, to do all of the work necessary to clear a map -- something the game explicitly encourages you to do -- you're going to be there for longer than the recommended levels, especially if you get lucky with zone events. Because of the way that level scaling works, you're going to keep getting experience rewards that scale nicely with your real level, avoiding the usual issue of diminishing gains. Factor in the rewards for the daily achievements, and if you feel like clearing all of the starter maps right away, you may very well be into your 30s before you head into your first zone above level 10."

Wait, wait!

After spending the last point talking on how DE aren't enough to replace quests and they won't give you enough xp to advance to the next level area, now there is too much to do and you'll GAIN TOO MUCH XP.

So the game doesn't let you go to the next level bracket areas due to low XP gains at the same time it gives too much XP making the next level bracket area skippable!

What are you smoking dude?

"This all sounds well and good, but then you realize that the karma vendors scattered throughout every zone are in place to help you get level-appropriate gear. Fill a heart, and you get access to gear that's reasonable for that level. Rather than waiting on the luck of the drop, you can just fill in blanks there, right?

Except that as you stick in lower-level areas, you get lower-level items... until you're utterly undergeared for areas that are actually at your level."

But you are playing in the areas of the level of the items dude, so who cares!

Is there any game that gives you level 30 gear while you are level 10 area so that you can go to a level 20 area destroying everyone?

I know this downlevel stuff is too hard for the brain after smoking whatever you smoking.

Pro Tip: Stop thinking about levels and think only if your behind is being kicked or not.

"This also comes into play with relative power levels. While gear and trait bonuses scale down to your level, they don't scale down City of Heroes style, where you lose access to abilities much above your current level. They're just reduced by a percentage. And as higher-level gear gets more and more powerful and adds to more and more stats, you wind up with a much more robust and powerful character in the lower level ranges as it stands."

OMG being higher level actually makes you more powerful?

Don't tell that to the haters that say down leveling means there is no sense of becoming stronger.

So this is a problem but being a level 90 in a level 20 area and just accidentely sneezing and killing everythig in the area is OK?

"But let's assume that you're not worried about all of this. There's still an issue with the area flow, centering chiefly around the fact that it doesn't exist. Nothing is pushing you from one zone to the next except clearing the first zone. There are no breadcrumb quests, no reasons to move on, nothing but a vague need to fight higher-level enemies and get slightly better resources from harvesting."

OMG FREEDOM!

But actually isn't true - there are better rewards, there is the natural curiosity, there is more challenging enemies, there is the personal story, there is dungeons, etc.

"The fact that you can do that is awesome. The fact that there is nothing else to force movement? Significantly less awesome."

Who doesn't like to be forced?...

-Crafting is a freaking mess

"What issues? Well, you've got a set of recipes that require you to make four or five transitional items to get to the one thing you want to make, so that's awesome. But more notably, the game doesn't tell you how to fit those items together; it just leaves you to work through the Discovery interface. The idea here is clever, but the execution is lacking. You click items and hope to put together a working item from what you've got on hand, but that's literally all you can do here. FFXIV's lack of a recipe list of any sort was a major issue with the game; here, it's just improved by the fact that the game stores the recipe after you've made it once."

First it isn't true - the game generally shows a basic item that gives a rough idea of how craft items.

Second, what is the problem of discovering it on your own?

"The idea is that crafting is supposed to be an effort, but as it stands, it's more effort than it's worth. You can deposit crafting materials from anywhere, and that's nice, but you blow through stacks of materials ridiculously fast trying to just level yourself into competence. Short of buying gold and begging at the trading post, there's no way to actually harvest goods fast enough to keep up with the demands of the game compared to your level. Some resources even become nigh-impossible to harvest, especially leather: Since loot that drops is around your level always, you stop getting lower-level leather pretty quickly, and there aren't any nodes to harvest for it."

But I thought you stayed ages in lower level areas and kept getting low level items...

"In other words, if you want to craft, odds are good-to-definite that you will outlevel every single item you can make until the level cap, at which point there are a handful of relevant things to make and a lot of lower-level junk you don't need. You know, exactly like crafting in World of Warcraft or Star Wars: The Old Republic or several other games, except that the road to get to selective obsolescence takes a lot longer and winds up being far more obnoxious."

I've a word for you: Alts.

That is what crafting is for: gearing your alts and gearing at cap.

The story is weak

I don't find the voice acting to be any problem.

The main story itself is generic cliche fantasy stuff.

I find the stories of the world more interesting and the voice acting of the world NPCs is pretty good.

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

 

Good for them. It'd be nice to see more of this kind of journalism around here in featured articles.

Aye, I am getting a little bored with the 'best buddy' style puff pieces we see.

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

I kept myself pretty well geared as I was leveling through crafting - if you read further in my post it was a great source of XP and I did nearly 100% discovery to level it up.

What I found pointless about it was that I could just buy dropped gear off the TP or using Karma or buying sets via Racial vendors that had the same if not better stats for less investment of time/gold.

I haven't really played in a while, but like WoW and post-WoW MMOs the crafted gear is really just "option B" to gear you get as loot or from other such sources.

I have never been a big fan of crafting in MMOs - the only game I really liked it in was UO and it was because it was really like the only way to get gear.

So I'm one of those people that feels that unless everything is crafted by players, it's always pointless and second-fiddle to drops.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

And there is the core of all GW2 'discussion'.  The 'facts' are:

#1 GW2 is the best game ever and there is nothing wrong with it... period.

#2 The players are bad and play the game wrong, because GW2 itself can't be bad as seen in 'fact #1'.

#3 Anyone who says otherwise is trolling.  Troll opinions do not count.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

Isn't this kind of the point?  It's up to the players to define their roles for each situation.  C'mon Spock, do you really need your role spelled out for you?

I think DEs do a great job, when they're not broken of replacing some of the questing.  The gaps are filled in by the Hearts.  Which leads me to:

Area flow.  How is it problematic?  Following the Hearts makes the areas flow pretty nicely.  If you augment that with some exploring in each area, I found the areas to flow nicely, especially if you use your storyline as your ulimate guide.  I know this leads to the whole "themepark on rails" experience, but if we're talking about area flow, that's kind of what will happen anyway.  Having said that, in my experience, the areas flow ok just by exploring them as well.

I honestly don't disagree with your statement on crafting.  IMO it's probably the most boring, tedious and needlessly obtuse aspects of the game.

I found the story line (Norn Whispers Agent and Asura ? - Haven't gotten that far yet) to be somewhat entertaining.  I won't say the story telling should win any awards but I haven't been bored yet and have even thoroughly enjoyed some parts of it.  However, I played a Human story during the first two BWEs and found that to be pretty boring.

Anyway, even with its flaws, I still think GW2 is the best game out there.  At least of the ones I'm familiar with.

Originally posted by elitero

Originally posted by Yamota
Yeah Massively is my main source of news and reviews for MMORPGs. They (almost) always gives you a balanced view of things.

As long as its in ones best interest right?

I dont understand. Who's best interest would it be to say that GW 2 is not perfect and has some issues?

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

I kept myself pretty well geared as I was leveling through crafting - if you read further in my post it was a great source of XP and I did nearly 100% discovery to level it up.

What I found pointless about it was that I could just buy dropped gear off the TP or using Karma or buying sets via Racial vendors that had the same if not better stats for less investment of time/gold.

I haven't really played in a while, but like WoW and post-WoW MMOs the crafted gear is really just "option B" to gear you get as loot or from other such sources.

I have never been a big fan of crafting in MMOs - the only game I really liked it in was UO and it was because it was really like the only way to get gear.

So I'm one of those people that feels that unless everything is crafted by players, it's always pointless and second-fiddle to drops.

Racial vendors as a good way to get gear?

There is a few things that changed- the value of most low level tier mats has go down, the price of many blues and green items has gone up.

That makes crafting more useful.

It is especially useful if you already have a character that can craft stuff for one of your alts.

Originally posted by Torgrim

 

Crafting is weak? How so, gather mats, mix em get recipes how is that a freaking mess?

He is correct in what he is saying in the article about crafting. The system itself isn't a mess, the recipe requirements are and you will frequently out level what you can craft before you get to the crafting point.

Considering how rare some drops are, requiring 8 or 15 or, i nthe case of some jewelry, 45 of some rare drops is silly. Especially considering many of these are for leveling gear.

GW2 is a good game, but the end game and crafting mat requirements are really out of kilter with the rest of the MMO space.

Ya'll should read the article on Massively -

They author agrees that it is still a good game and they still stand by their vote for MMO of the year.

But to say it is without some flaws is silly (even if flaws that are only perceived by some and viewed differently than others.)

I don't mind the article but I find it comes from a narrow mindset of "This is how we have done it in the past so compared to that x y and z are problems.

Story being weak is one thing.

The issue discussing the roles is another and the author's opinion to me shows the exact problem with many folks who play mmos and report on them.

There are NO SET ROLES, it is not difficult to understand, are some traits not as obvious for certain abilities? Yes however why should the populace be spoon fed how they should play. Why is it assumed that the majority of players are so stupid that they can't figure things out for themselves.

How about you go into a dungeon and COMMUNICATE?!?! Lord knows pugs are bad but even then you can talk. If 5 people go in and are glass cannon builds of course things will be a mess.

Anet has said time and time again that things are easier if people go in knowing how to work with each other and their powers. I do dungeons all the time and wvwvw as a ranger. I group with guys who know what i am gonna do, they know i will drop a healing spring and know to use the proper combos when it is down, dungeons are EASY and they are fun.

The same with area flow..We are so used to such linear boring theme rides...yawn God forbid it is a more dynamic world that doesn't hold your hand through each area

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by elitero

Originally posted by Yamota
Yeah Massively is my main source of news and reviews for MMORPGs. They (almost) always gives you a balanced view of things.

As long as its in ones best interest right?

I dont understand. Who's best interest would it be to say that GW 2 is not perfect and has some issues?

Come on guy, I know you are not that off the chart to know what I am talking about.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

I kept myself pretty well geared as I was leveling through crafting - if you read further in my post it was a great source of XP and I did nearly 100% discovery to level it up.

What I found pointless about it was that I could just buy dropped gear off the TP or using Karma or buying sets via Racial vendors that had the same if not better stats for less investment of time/gold.

I haven't really played in a while, but like WoW and post-WoW MMOs the crafted gear is really just "option B" to gear you get as loot or from other such sources.

I have never been a big fan of crafting in MMOs - the only game I really liked it in was UO and it was because it was really like the only way to get gear.

So I'm one of those people that feels that unless everything is crafted by players, it's always pointless and second-fiddle to drops.

Huh. You actually drove him to deleting his account.

BAD SPOCK!!

I no longer am actively playing GW2 but felt I got more thna my money's worth out fo it and agree with soe of the points in the article but not all but....you coudl write a similar article about any game in any genre that was voted game of the year.

So Whilst it'a good to have articles like this to provide some balance it should not be taken as justification for the negative POV as some have taken it on this site.

Originally posted by Thorbrand
You mean the least worst game of the year?

Exactly.

Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

I kept myself pretty well geared as I was leveling through crafting - if you read further in my post it was a great source of XP and I did nearly 100% discovery to level it up.

What I found pointless about it was that I could just buy dropped gear off the TP or using Karma or buying sets via Racial vendors that had the same if not better stats for less investment of time/gold.

I haven't really played in a while, but like WoW and post-WoW MMOs the crafted gear is really just "option B" to gear you get as loot or from other such sources.

I have never been a big fan of crafting in MMOs - the only game I really liked it in was UO and it was because it was really like the only way to get gear.

So I'm one of those people that feels that unless everything is crafted by players, it's always pointless and second-fiddle to drops.

Huh. You actually drove him to deleting his account.

BAD SPOCK!!

 

I just noticed this too.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

*snip*

Huh. You actually drove him to deleting his account.

BAD SPOCK!!

I just noticed this too.

I'd be very sad if true - I liked Korrigan a lot! I would never report him or anything.

I hope MMORPG.com didn't perma-ban him for some reason, or he didn't just rage quit this community.

Originally posted by grimal

Originally posted by FARGIN_WAR

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by BadSpock

-I actually liked the crafting in GW2 but it (like most MMOs) is pointless

No it's not. I won't repeat my previous post, but this misinformation coming from people who obviously didn't test the feature toroughtly needs to stop. Crafting produces useful items at any level, if it didn't for you, then guess what... YOU did it wrong!

I kept myself pretty well geared as I was leveling through crafting - if you read further in my post it was a great source of XP and I did nearly 100% discovery to level it up.

What I found pointless about it was that I could just buy dropped gear off the TP or using Karma or buying sets via Racial vendors that had the same if not better stats for less investment of time/gold.

I haven't really played in a while, but like WoW and post-WoW MMOs the crafted gear is really just "option B" to gear you get as loot or from other such sources.

I have never been a big fan of crafting in MMOs - the only game I really liked it in was UO and it was because it was really like the only way to get gear.

So I'm one of those people that feels that unless everything is crafted by players, it's always pointless and second-fiddle to drops.

Huh. You actually drove him to deleting his account.

BAD SPOCK!!

 

I just noticed this too.

It's that Vulcan mind contol stuff. He almost did it to me awhile ago. He didn't know that I have Magneto's helm sitting on my desk.