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General Discussion  » What the hell is going on with the anti holy trinity lately

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166 posts found
  KhinRunite

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

1/16/13 8:32:07 PM#121
Dear OP, there are tons of trinity-based MMOs out there. Take your pick. A non-trinity based game isn't an automatic fail, no matter how much you feel you got screwed over as a tank. Yeah, that's right, you're no longer the special one. Everyone gets their moment ni the sun.
  winter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2220

1/16/13 8:35:01 PM#122
Originally posted by Khelden

When I read they were going to release an elder scroll online, I thought it was a great idea...

 

Now, reading a bit on the left and right, I came to learn that the game WON'T have an aggro system. Seriously, after GW2 failfest I don't understand why company still try to go that way. Even in GW2 high end players were recreating a holy trinity by using game gimmicks, which was far from being fun let me add.

 

Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.

 

I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.

 

I will probably try the game nonetheless, but my hopes for this game went from high to underground with this.

 

Sources:

 

http://www.elderscrollsguides.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-leaked-info-so-far/

http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q4-2012/102212a.html

  Doin't remember any elder scrolls game having a agro system from arena to skyrim.

 SO basically they aren't picking up every two bit MMO systems and stuffing it into elder scrolls. Good for them Myabe they'll make a game alittle less MMO'ishy (read Wow clone). Will it work out foir the better? To early to say. Otherwise since mages, healers, and rogues in the game can wear heavy (plate) armor if they want theres alot less reason to say oh we need a tank to hold agro because the mage is squishy.

   I'd say your thinking inside the box and can't see the outside

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2119

1/16/13 8:35:38 PM#123

Holy Trinity mecanic is such a sleeping pill, It's so dumb easy.

Tank press his 3-4 aggro skills so the boss keeps facing him, rangers do dps while the healer standing in the back drinking some beer and pop of heals here and there.

Yes I know you holy trinity crowd will prolly shoot me down for making it sound so simple but in reality it IS THAT simple when you are in farming mode for dungeons.

Without holy trinity you have to think, see what the rest in your group are doing, move around to good position ect.

 

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  ibn_Cartwell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/12
Posts: 56

1/16/13 9:24:30 PM#124
The only good aggro system in my opinion is one that works in DND rulesets! aka, undead will attack the closest because the lacking the brain! a big beast will attack whoever is closest or is pissing it off and a elemental is smart enough to blast your healer to oblivion!!
  ace80k

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/04/05
Posts: 139

1/16/13 9:25:25 PM#125
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by ace80k

As far as the trinity goes, the majority of MMO players actually enjoy playing some sort of group role. The GW2 experiment is proof of this. Customization is fine, give people the option to switch from healer to tank to dps, etc, but make the roles themselves actually mean something in the game world. Gear rewards are great, but people feel more rewarded by working successfully as a team. Without the holy trinity, you feel no real sense of this.

No, YOU feel no real sense of this.  I don't need a decade old mechanic to enjoy a game, a friend and I took turns getting within range of a champion mob and though it took 10 minutes, by doing so we were able to successfully manipulate the unique hate system in the game and take it down without having some kind of artificial taunt or mass heal. 

Sounds like an awfully epic encounter. Bravo. Try duoing Xegony from EQ1, scaled to an appropriate level, then get back to me. Sure the trinity is a dated mechanic, but I can assure you and anyone else bashing it..you are the minority. 

  Allymishka

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/12
Posts: 11

1/16/13 9:25:47 PM#126
Originally posted by Eir_S
No, YOU feel no real sense of this.  I don't need a decade old mechanic to enjoy a game, a friend and I took turns getting within range of a champion mob and though it took 10 minutes, by doing so we were able to successfully manipulate the unique hate system in the game and take it down without having some kind of artificial taunt or mass heal.  If anything, I've never felt MORE important in a team.  There was no fake panic button to rely on, and I personally enjoy it.  I'll play a good trinity game again if one ever releases, but the break I'm taking with GW2 has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air.

Its pretty obvious a huge amount of people have this feeling lol... Running in and out of range for 10 mins doesnt sound very exciting or interesting to me, it kinda makes me never want to play GW2 lol if thats what the going tactic is... the mechanics of the mob must be very umm..  dull.  And since when did a mass heal become a bad part of mmo wouldnt that be an indication that your in a tough encounter and having to work hard to win??  No lets have everyone heal themselves so we can just play a single player syle game with a bunch of clones next to us we dont have to think about...

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2667

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

1/16/13 9:28:17 PM#127
Originally posted by Khelden

When I read they were going to release an elder scroll online, I thought it was a great idea...

 

Now, reading a bit on the left and right, I came to learn that the game WON'T have an aggro system. Seriously, after GW2 failfest I don't understand why company still try to go that way. Even in GW2 high end players were recreating a holy trinity by using game gimmicks, which was far from being fun let me add.

 

Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.

 

I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.

 

I will probably try the game nonetheless, but my hopes for this game went from high to underground with this.

 

Sources:

 

http://www.elderscrollsguides.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-leaked-info-so-far/

http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q4-2012/102212a.html

The trinity and aggro system will slowly work it's way out of mmos. As time goes on and AI gets better do you really think AI controlled mobs and bosses should be responding the same stupid way they have been for 10, 20, 30 years? Eventually it will get to the point of AI approaching human like levels. So boss and mobs fight will be like PvP rather than drone like PvE battles like it is now. Can you imagine if we built our computers to stay dumb, or playing Chessmaster 3000 at a sub kindergarten level all the time? Do you guys really think that mmos should be made that way forever?

 

I hear all this smack talk about challenge but ooooh no don't take away our retarded ass handicap in the process. But we want to be challenged! OOOOh but don't make the raid boss actually think with any real intelligence! Ask anyone here if they got the chance to play the role of a raid boss who would they kill first? Only the dense ones would attack the guy with the most hp and the thickest armor first. As other genres constantly improve AI ememies, we are stuck in this rut of trying to keep them dumb but pretty. Yeaaah don't make'em too smart, we don't want them actually winning now do we?

 

Time to pick guys challenge or tradition? You can't have it both ways...


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  Allymishka

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/12
Posts: 11

1/16/13 9:31:48 PM#128
Oh one last thing re the "artifical taunt" if a caster can be firing off fireballs and a necro can be summoning pets why is it so far fetched for a tank to be using a taunt which is not a rude word or hand signal but fancy named spell which draws the attention of the mob for a given duration?
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/16/13 9:31:54 PM#129
Originally posted by Khelden

When I read they were going to release an elder scroll online, I thought it was a great idea...

Well, just recently it became a popular marketing bullet.

Makes sense, if you're tired of clones of ThatGame or you remember games that had more than three basic (yawn) roles.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Crunchy222

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/12
Posts: 390

1/16/13 9:33:28 PM#130

People incoorectly blame the "holy trinity" as the reason their endgame sucks.  The real reason, imo, is that people have been doing the whole raid tier for loot thing and instance pvp deathmatches long enough.  The trinity shouldnt be a trinity, it was more fun when you needed 6-8 unique roles in order to do it right, not a tank, a healer and two DPS...which is boring.

I think the real issue is both the type of endgame in PVE (raids) and the type of pvp in endgame (instanced death match, CTF style, hold point ect)  Its no easy task to create fair and balanced characters in pvp and then have those same characters fit as a cog in a dungeon machine.

 

Also..

 

Healing and tanking take a brain, thick skin in case things go wrong (its your fault) and an attention span.  The three qualities have become harder and harder to find.  People these days want the "best" pvp class, the class that kills the fastest and easiest, the class that requires the least amount of brainpower to result in the most amount of kills.

This is why GW2 did away with it all, and turned everyone into the same range/melee DPS character with support. They also took out meaningful progression.  Aimed squarely at the above mentioned crowd that wants an action game.

 

So people assume that the issue is that tanks and heals exist.  The issue is that endgame is the same shit weve been playing since everquest and DAOC.  Its gotten old.  Few want to deal with the effort required to hold aggro correctly and keep the group alive, and when its too easy for all it becomes even more boring...however few want a challange, they want to clear content while facebooking and watching tv...its impossible...so it gets removed/ people dont want it.

 

Its odd that sandbox games dont have these issues, so long as they have clan vs clan warfare, better if it involves bases that the clan can build themselves, even more so with full loot.  The endgame becomes political and never ending.  Ask people who have been playing eve for nearly a decade what its like to be in a game with no endgame because its a sandbox.

That style of sandbox needs to come into mmorpgs and fast.  As for the holy trinity, when done right its fantastic.  You just cant have DPS being raw DPS, they need to be support and DPS, you get the only DPS rouges and mages and its the only thing people will play.  Such a character needs to not be able to solo as to require support and return support. This wont happen in the "everything must be soloable" game era.

Play a game with no holy trinity, and it quickly becomes dry and boring, granted theres not full loot, terraformed/constructed bases at risk, and no lame pretend factional divide that tells you who the enemies have to be.  You put stuff at risk, put in some politics, and add teamwork and the endgame never gets dull and you dont need raids or instanced pvp to crutch on, no need for the trinity either.

Just sayin....

 

That or..*gasp*... developers could actually do something innovative, unique, or groundbreaking...since those words are used to describe ever damn lame game to come out in the last 5 years...why not actually do it and make something new for once?

 

EDIT: typed too much, not correcting spelling, why wont this site support spellcheck?

  ibn_Cartwell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/12
Posts: 56

1/16/13 9:34:31 PM#131
Originally posted by Allymishka
Oh one last thing re the "artifical taunt" if a caster can be firing off fireballs and a necro can be summoning pets why is it so far fetched for a tank to be using a taunt which is not a rude word or hand signal but fancy named spell which draws the attention of the mob for a given duration?

Because generally this would only work on certain monsters, you can yell your momma jokes at an undead attacking your healer all you want, but I dont think its gonna change whats on his mind, BRAINZ!!

 

Aggro needs to be implemented correctly and realistically!!

  jinxxed0

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 845

1/16/13 9:36:27 PM#132

That's just one reason this game will fail. It'll get a lot of sales sure. But it's just going fail for the same reasons SWTOR failed. I think the game will do a little better though and should do better than GW2 because of the server splitting up people by having a server for solo players who must not know single player games exist and another server for people who want to team. That's the only thing they're doing right. Seriously, making this game another generic thempark with the brand name on it is just stupid. Have they not seen what's happened to all these other games? It's time to take risks and make something good. Make a world our characters live in. Not a cheap gimmick people will play for a few weeks, hit max level, and complain

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/16/13 9:37:47 PM#133
Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell
Aggro needs to be implemented correctly and realistically!!
 

You are waving goodbye to one of the Two Standard Answers to "What to do with capped and bored players?", you know.

= (presumably) half of your paying customers.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Allymishka

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/12
Posts: 11

1/16/13 10:00:10 PM#134
Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell
Originally posted by Allymishka
Oh one last thing re the "artifical taunt" if a caster can be firing off fireballs and a necro can be summoning pets why is it so far fetched for a tank to be using a taunt which is not a rude word or hand signal but fancy named spell which draws the attention of the mob for a given duration?

Because generally this would only work on certain monsters, you can yell your momma jokes at an undead attacking your healer all you want, but I dont think its gonna change whats on his mind, BRAINZ!!

 

Aggro needs to be implemented correctly and realistically!!

Haha i like your response :) but you're asking for realism when attacking an undead creature?? :p

So maybe give me a LURE OF DELICIOUS JUICY BRAINZ VIA TELEPATHY skill for those buggers.  Or maybe i could just unzip my head and show it to him as he runs past to attack the healer :p

ps for all the people who get angrily excited about sillyness... my example was a joke

  ibn_Cartwell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/12
Posts: 56

1/16/13 10:04:32 PM#135
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by ibn_Cartwell
Aggro needs to be implemented correctly and realistically!!
 

You are waving goodbye to one of the Two Standard Answers to "What to do with capped and bored players?", you know.

= (presumably) half of your paying customers.

I would think advanced AI would keep players entertained myself, but I might misinterpretting what you mean?

  Eir_S

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4665

GW2 socialist.

1/17/13 4:43:24 AM#136
Originally posted by Allymishka
Originally posted by Eir_S
No, YOU feel no real sense of this.  I don't need a decade old mechanic to enjoy a game, a friend and I took turns getting within range of a champion mob and though it took 10 minutes, by doing so we were able to successfully manipulate the unique hate system in the game and take it down without having some kind of artificial taunt or mass heal.  If anything, I've never felt MORE important in a team.  There was no fake panic button to rely on, and I personally enjoy it.  I'll play a good trinity game again if one ever releases, but the break I'm taking with GW2 has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air.

Its pretty obvious a huge amount of people have this feeling lol... Running in and out of range for 10 mins doesnt sound very exciting or interesting to me, it kinda makes me never want to play GW2 lol if thats what the going tactic is... the mechanics of the mob must be very umm..  dull.  And since when did a mass heal become a bad part of mmo wouldnt that be an indication that your in a tough encounter and having to work hard to win??  No lets have everyone heal themselves so we can just play a single player syle game with a bunch of clones next to us we dont have to think about...

You realize almost every class in WoW for example, has ways to heal themselves if they need to.  I appreciated how difficult it was to fight elite mobs in WoW with a DK or a Warrior because they didn't have things like "Lay on Hands" (pally was still my fave class overall), but they did have ways to gain health back.  Like I said, a panic button is not my preference.  It's not a bad thing, it's just boring to me at this point.  Once you play something enough, you fall into two categories... either you're one of those people who can't live without it via familiarity or you're one of those people who welcomes a change.  Personally, I welcome the change that GW2 offers, that's all I'm saying.

And yes, using actual mobility to survive an encounter instead of trading hits while standing still is the reason I'll never go back to WoW.  It would just put me to sleep.  Maybe there will be a happy medium someday, like TESO.  I'm just tired of standing still.

  Eir_S

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4665

GW2 socialist.

1/17/13 4:48:07 AM#137
Originally posted by ace80k
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by ace80k

As far as the trinity goes, the majority of MMO players actually enjoy playing some sort of group role. The GW2 experiment is proof of this. Customization is fine, give people the option to switch from healer to tank to dps, etc, but make the roles themselves actually mean something in the game world. Gear rewards are great, but people feel more rewarded by working successfully as a team. Without the holy trinity, you feel no real sense of this.

No, YOU feel no real sense of this.  I don't need a decade old mechanic to enjoy a game, a friend and I took turns getting within range of a champion mob and though it took 10 minutes, by doing so we were able to successfully manipulate the unique hate system in the game and take it down without having some kind of artificial taunt or mass heal. 

Sounds like an awfully epic encounter. Bravo. Try duoing Xegony from EQ1, scaled to an appropriate level, then get back to me. Sure the trinity is a dated mechanic, but I can assure you and anyone else bashing it..you are the minority. 

Is sticking to old mechanics why absolutely no one complains daily on forums about the dry state of MMOs?

Oh wait.....

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3559

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

1/17/13 12:51:39 PM#138
Originally posted by Allymishka
Originally posted by Eir_S
No, YOU feel no real sense of this.  I don't need a decade old mechanic to enjoy a game, a friend and I took turns getting within range of a champion mob and though it took 10 minutes, by doing so we were able to successfully manipulate the unique hate system in the game and take it down without having some kind of artificial taunt or mass heal.  If anything, I've never felt MORE important in a team.  There was no fake panic button to rely on, and I personally enjoy it.  I'll play a good trinity game again if one ever releases, but the break I'm taking with GW2 has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air.

Its pretty obvious a huge amount of people have this feeling lol... Running in and out of range for 10 mins doesnt sound very exciting or interesting to me, it kinda makes me never want to play GW2 lol if thats what the going tactic is... the mechanics of the mob must be very umm..  dull.  And since when did a mass heal become a bad part of mmo wouldnt that be an indication that your in a tough encounter and having to work hard to win??  No lets have everyone heal themselves so we can just play a single player syle game with a bunch of clones next to us we dont have to think about...

I managed to get to level 60 (warrior) before I gave up on GW2.  I usually give a game to level cap, at least once (level 50 trooper/commando in SWTOR for example) before I make the decision to leave. But GW2 is just not my type of game. 

They have tried so desperately to be different from WoW, that some of it amounts to cutting off ones nose, to spite ones face.  But some people like it. To each their own.

  wowclones

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 133

1/17/13 12:55:45 PM#139
how many times have you been in a game looking for a healer or tank for hours, it sucks. devs realize this, so it's a good thing.
  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1236

1/17/13 1:04:27 PM#140

As a pvp enthusiast, I shy away from any game that has the sort of extremely 1 dimensional class design that is commonly referred to as the trinity.

I'm glad some people like it.  I'm also glad not every game has the same mechanics because I realize different people have different tastes.

This is not a case of "one way is better than the other for everyone."  It never will be.

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