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General Discussion  » What the hell is going on with the anti holy trinity lately

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166 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/18/12 9:16:37 AM#41
It's from an action orientated single player game, what do you expect!

Anyway I like the idea of no threat mechanics, means tanks will be the main crowd controllers, making pve fights more reactionary while also giving tanks a use in pvp
  Yizle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/10
Posts: 530

12/18/12 11:39:00 AM#42
Originally posted by Khelden
 

I don't see which days you are missing though, the trinity has been there on my first MMO which was Ultima Online and which is very old, it was also in my first fantasy game which was D&D lol... I think it's simply  a logical way to set your units. The chances for it to be gone are below low, even in games without it players are recreating it using different ways or simply move to another game.

Umm my first MMO was UO too and not once do I remember a holy trinity in it. Maybe you played it in its recent reincarnated form which is nothing like UO.

  apocoluster

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1305

\m/,

12/18/12 11:50:25 AM#43
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by Gravarg

As an avid tanker, I've seen this coming for a long time.  I'm one of the few that actually loves, and I mean LOVES tanking.  You're the backbone of any good group.  If you go down, so does the rest of the group.  At least with healers, you usually have some dps class that can take over, or you can outright tank the final few % without heals...but healer shouldn't ever die if you're a good tank hehe (unless they're stupid and get caught in AoEs, durdur duuur).

 

I like the popularity that comes with being the tank.  My guild knows my name.  They know they can call on me for great tanking deeds.  I'm not some random "replace with any millions of other" DPSers.  I'm not some healer that doesn't have to do thier job because the raid has plenty of others to pick up their slack.  I'm the tank, the one (or two) and only tank!  I take the hits, and have people pay royalties for my repair bill.  I laugh at the most fearsome bosses, and dance on thier corpses after they fail to vanquish me!  I am the master of knowledge, and I know every raid, every boss, where to position the fight, how to keep my allies alive without healing. I AM TANK!

 

 

Just my 2 pennies :)

No offense intended, but that kind of attitude is what makes alot of people despise the trinity. 

You took that seriously?  I read it as a joke  *shrug*

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2840

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/18/12 11:54:42 AM#44

Then don't play.  Simple as that and no GW2 removal of the trinity was the freshest and most bold thing an MMO has ever done, sounds like you jsut are not very good or didnt play long enough to see the beuty of the system.

 

 

 

For the rest of us who enjoy not having to stand around LFG for hours on end because we choose not to play 2 of the most boring roles in a game, heals & tank, removal of the trinity is a godsend.

 

 

However hate to burst your bubble, ESO is still going with the trinity but its going to be more lose variety.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Vanchora

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 4

facebook - facepalm - facewipe - braindead

12/18/12 12:21:12 PM#45
The angry feedback from many players over action combat being implemented in just about every new and upcoming MMORPG is due to many being upset that our genre is being over-run by action junkies who should be playing and whining about more MMOFPS instead of demanding the industry bastardize MMORPG's into twitch games.

This absolutely this!

Sorry usually I enjoy just reading and not posting, but this was absolutely what I am thinking too.

  Khelden

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 21

 
OP  12/18/12 5:01:00 PM#46
Originally posted by azzamasin

Then don't play.  Simple as that and no GW2 removal of the trinity was the freshest and most bold thing an MMO has ever done, sounds like you jsut are not very good or didnt play long enough to see the beuty of the system.

I did not play long enough to see the "beuty" of this system, you are completely right. Considering that in a few days my friends and I had already maxed our level and completed every dungeons, we should definitely have wasted more time chasing after useless skins.

 

This lack of trinity was made purely for players going for DPS class, thinking that Tanking and Healing were boring while they are not at all for most players playing these roles. 

You don't like tanking and healing and prefer to DPS, go on. As I already said, the best would be to allow alternative ways. While higher-end content would probably continue with the classic trinity ways since it's more efficient, it would allow low end players to run the content or try out higher end content without the "efficient" factor.

 

By the way, GW2 system was far from being "new". Many games have used systems without trinity wisely, Diablo 2 for example.

 

As for UO, I played this game 15 years ago and we were using something similar to the trinity.

  Lonzo

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/05/04
Posts: 210

12/18/12 5:04:02 PM#47

I hope every next generation MMO will force people to play Trinity again. I really dislike this Rezzing-Style from GW2.

We need the Holy Trinity for fun and immersive Groupplay in MMOs...

  QSatu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/06
Posts: 1768

12/18/12 5:06:28 PM#48
Maybe devs finally try other options instead of copy pasting holy trinity everywhere. I personally am happy that they try different things.
  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2565

12/18/12 5:08:17 PM#49
Originally posted by Khelden
Originally posted by ghstwolf
Originally posted by Khelden

Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.

 I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.

 

 

Aggro systems are lazy hold overs from the past.  The trinity doesn't require an aggro system, and IMO would be much more fun without it.  Then again I am in favor of virtually any change that eliminates the DDR feel of group PvE.

"Doing it right" would be a ton more work.  You'd need positional blocking, an AI with a threat vs proximity metric and release/retarget subroutine, plus a few other considerations (friendly fire for example).  Sadly though, even if it were to be executed perfectly, the game would fail.  That leap in complexity would alienate too many players that want (need is probably the better word) the static encounter to be "epic".

I disagree, I think aggro system is something which adds a lot to the game, whatever the way it is done. I wouldn't mind playing in an environment with temporary threat management, where the monster can pretty much attack randomly but where there are a few taunts to manage the situation. For example, during a special phase or to save an ally. I would even enjoy it.

 

But as it seems right now, after the huge fail of GW2 system where everybody was on his own,  TESO is going for the Healer is responsible for everybody.

 

Let's not forget, also, that unless the sword/mace and shield warrior deals as much damage as a dual-wield or two-handed warrior, the fact that there is no threat will most likely make him unwanted for high end groups where efficiency matters. 

 

There are a lot of stuff to be improved in the MMO industry, but I'm fairly sure that harming the possibility of playing the role we want isn't something great.

OH yeah - a tank uses taunts to keep the mob aggroed while the others go 'PEW PEW PEW' - I call it lazy mechanics from the developers.

 

Not anti-trinity but there is more out there than the trinity. New mob AI's make it much harder to use the trinity - take away taunts and there is no aggro on mob and other players have to be more attuned to what is going on. That makes a game a little harder to play and the players have to be better at moving around to not be killed.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Neo_Liberty

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 437

12/18/12 5:17:09 PM#50
Originally posted by botrytis
 

OH yeah - a tank uses taunts to keep the mob aggroed while the others go 'PEW PEW PEW' - I call it lazy mechanics from the developers.

 

Not anti-trinity but there is more out there than the trinity. New mob AI's make it much harder to use the trinity - take away taunts and there is no aggro on mob and other players have to be more attuned to what is going on. That makes a game a little harder to play and the players have to be better at moving around to not be killed.

I agree to some extent... I don't think the trinity is the problem though.. as you said... "take away taunts and there is no aggro on mob and other players have to be more attuned to what is going on." the problem is that aggro mechanics are poor.. regardless of whether you use the trinigty or not... you should never be able to just let your character auto through a fight... especially a boss battle.. for only 1 or 2 ppl to be actively involved is poor mechanics.

ppl should be able to use the playstyles they like.. dodging/meatshield/healer but the mobs shouldn't just be idiots who do whatever you want them to do... taking away the trinity itself and not improving the play in general.. seems counterintuitive.. you are taking away ppls identity.

  Khelden

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 21

 
OP  12/18/12 5:17:13 PM#51
Originally posted by botrytis
 

OH yeah - a tank uses taunts to keep the mob aggroed while the others go 'PEW PEW PEW' - I call it lazy mechanics from the developers.

 

Not anti-trinity but there is more out there than the trinity. New mob AI's make it much harder to use the trinity - take away taunts and there is no aggro on mob and other players have to be more attuned to what is going on. That makes a game a little harder to play and the players have to be better at moving around to not be killed.

It doesn't necessarily make the game harder to play. Just like GW2, most of my friends were able to faceroll the content, considering we failed to faceroll some dungeons in other games using trinity simply means that the difficulty of a game has many variables to play with. While on a large scale it might add difficulty, it doesn't for everyone.

 

Also, let's not forget how many people disliked GW2 because some dungeons were hard in their opinion. This is a no brainer, most of the players of MMORPG's are having difficulty with very easy mechanics already existing, even with tanks and healers babysitting them.

 

By going "No trinity", not only is the game removing possible roles, but it is also making it target a specific, elitist audience. Not sure this is the wisest thing unless they are going for an elitist niche, which has its pros and cons.

 

On a sidenote, I am also completely against the "aggro walls" that tanks are in some games now. But there must be wiser ideas than simply removing the role completely.

  Kuraphimaru

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 1293

12/18/12 5:21:52 PM#52


Originally posted by Khelden
It doesn't necessarily make the game harder to play. Just like GW2, most of my friends were able to faceroll the content, considering we failed to faceroll some dungeons in other games using trinity simply means that the difficulty of a game has many variables to play with. While on a large scale it might add difficulty, it doesn't for everyone.

 

Also, let's not forget how many people disliked GW2 because some dungeons were hard in their opinion. This is a no brainer, most of the players of MMORPG's are having difficulty with very easy mechanics already existing, even with tanks and healers babysitting them.

 

By going "No trinity", not only is the game removing possible roles, but it is also making it target a specific, elitist audience. Not sure this is the wisest thing unless they are going for an elitist niche, which has its pros and cons.



What is this elitism in no trinity games you speak of?

  Khelden

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 21

 
OP  12/18/12 5:30:37 PM#53
Originally posted by Kuraphimaru

What is this elitism in no trinity games you speak of?

Some players think that trinity makes games easy, so having no trinity must make the game harder and so, more challenging. When challenge = fun, it is an aspect of elitism.

  lqw6843128

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/12
Posts: 35

12/18/12 5:44:59 PM#54
Originally posted by azzamasin

For the rest of us who enjoy not having to stand around LFG for hours on end because we choose not to play 2 of the most boring roles in a game, heals & tank, removal of the trinity is a godsend.

...

Thumbs up.

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/18/12 5:48:18 PM#55
You can tank without threat mechanics.

What they do is give tanks the primary cc role not dps.

Then tank uses collision detection to pin mob into a spot.

Mob does some sort of throw or whatever to get tank out of the way then runs for another player.

Tank whacks mob over the head with a mace to stun it before it reaches other player then pushes mob against a wall again to tank it.

Mob throws a fireball, tank gets in front of fireball with his shield up to reflect it

Threat only exists because those old games couldn't handle collision detection and true line of sight / projectile trajectories

It's 2012 we don't need it now, just like we don't need gcd and hidden turn based combat.
  AvatarBlade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/11/06
Posts: 774

12/18/12 5:50:11 PM#56

I'd like a trinity game, in which the aggro is different that the taunt style mechanic. It would have to have collison and a boss, for example, would choose to go for the tank, because this guy is activley blocking attacks meant for another player, or is physically blocking said boss from reaching his other targets. If that could be acomplished, it would make sence for the boss to start focusing on the tank, trying to get him out of the way, to get to his squishier friends. Not because he used taunt.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/18/12 5:50:22 PM#57
Basicly they can make it so you tank pve like you tank pvp.
  mikuniman

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/06
Posts: 286

12/18/12 5:57:01 PM#58
Originally posted by Khelden

When I read they were going to release an elder scroll online, I thought it was a great idea...

 

Now, reading a bit on the left and right, I came to learn that the game WON'T have an aggro system. Seriously, after GW2 failfest I don't understand why company still try to go that way. Even in GW2 high end players were recreating a holy trinity by using game gimmicks, which was far from being fun let me add.

 

Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.

 

I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.

 

I will probably try the game nonetheless, but my hopes for this game went from high to underground with this.

 

Sources:

 

http://www.elderscrollsguides.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-leaked-info-so-far/

http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q4-2012/102212a.html

I suppose you want to play the same old tired game mechanic for another 10yrs. There are more way to get the job done! Open your mind man.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

12/18/12 6:00:48 PM#59
Yes! I want back my LF healer/tank.....sure...


  remyburke

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3054

I liked MMOs better when gamers didn't play them, and just geeks did.

12/18/12 6:01:26 PM#60
Originally posted by Khelden
Originally posted by ShakyMo
From what I understand TESO while it has healers doesn't have traditional tanks or any threat mechanics

That's my understanding too considering they said someone could play a sneaky healer...

 

But no threat mechanic to go with is a shame.

With no threat mechanics, it sounds more like healers will HAVE to be sneaky. lol

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