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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why is there not an MMO that you can solo 100% of everything?

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272 posts found
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5939

12/17/12 11:26:18 AM#141
Originally posted by Latronus
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by marlborz
...snip
...snip

Which is the biggest problem about newer mmos, people who are in a groups and raids 24/7 but dont talk, dont interact, dont care a rats butt, isnt that truly THE singleplayer experience? :)

Flame on!

:)

Teehee, look at all this rip roaring chat when the game goes "group" based, I think you might be onto something. They ARE the singleplayers after all and were never recognized for it. The NPCs are the ones talking.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/31155/2012-12-17_00002.jpg

This image was found while traipsing thru GW2 forum and someone reporting a graphical bug.

Ever since WoW launched, games have been going more and more this way in general.  Back in EQ you HAD to talk in groups or you died.  That game was was "too hard" so along comes WoW and casual gamers (peeps that don't play like a second job) comes along and BAM 12M subs.  Now every company wants a piece of that action so the games get dumber and dumber.  I played GW2 for 3 weeks and I think I may have spoken in a group just a couple times.  Why?  Because I didn't have to.  Bring back games designed like the EQ of old and this will not happen. 

Actually the problem started with EQ.  Like Banaghran said there were challenging games before EQ where you could play how you liked.  Grouping has always been easier than soloing.  That's why you get smaller rewards.  The purpose of grouping wasn't primarily to get people to socialize, but to try and get more people to subscribe.  Game companies don't care if you socialize and a lot of raiding and grouping has little to no socialization.

The problem rears it's head because there is content designed entirely for groups or just for solo, but the developers try and balance itemization, combat mechanics (trinity and specialized roles), classes, and progression for two different games in one.  In the older games like Lineage or UO there was just one game and no separate mechanics for solo or group play.  It took a combination of skill, gear, and progression to be able to handle challenging content solo or duo and larger groups were safer.  But in the end it was still the same style of game play.  There were no special aggro mechanics but there was healing, damage sponge, and CC as the trinity.  That shifted with EQ style gaming to an aggro trinity.

There are so many people who cut their teeth on EQ or EQ clones (WoW, EQ2, LotRO, etc.) that forced grouping is all they know and how they think the MMO genre should make games.  Maybe they don't realize there are other forms combat mechanics that predate trinity aggro - forced grouping.

 

Curse you AquaScum!

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

12/17/12 11:47:58 AM#142

Majority of people think mmorpgs are about quests and story now. Thats the problem lol. There is a lot more to a mmorpg, just over time game companies have neglected those things and obmitted them from game to save time so they can rush their product. Probably why those games rush to f2p or the garbage can.

Grouping use to be fun, it had meaning. Todays games its just a chore. Meeting new people, making friends in game, forming or joining guilds, helping your guild out, helping noobs out, it was fun and had meaning. Now you have people that rush to max level and dont know their class properly or how to act in a group. In SWTOR, once the group was done people just left the group, didnt bother to say thanks, or have a good day. Kind of opposite of social interaction ;)

  Aison2

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 610

12/17/12 12:17:42 PM#143

can't fix the introduction of mechanics for cooperation.

The most popular choice for that would be class division into tank/healer/dd, but there is also plenty mechanics that require  actions being done simultanius which simply cant be done solo  (push x buttons at same time, kill enemies at same time, ...)

 

Pi*1337/100 = 42

  Zyzra

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/07
Posts: 363

12/17/12 12:19:12 PM#144
I can solo every monster in ATITD.
  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

12/17/12 12:23:17 PM#145

Yes, and why is there not a public transport where I can drive alone?

BECAUSE IT IS PUBLIC, JACKO!

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

12/17/12 12:25:12 PM#146
Originally posted by Elikal

Yes, and why is there not a public transport where I can drive alone?

BECAUSE IT IS PUBLIC, JACKO!

You could steal a bus if you realy had to ;)

  User Deleted
12/17/12 12:26:13 PM#147

I think a good MMO design is that you should be able to solo most things during the leveling process, with obvious group functions excluded, such as dungeons.  I liked how WoW did it in Vanilla, where you actually got experience bonuses for grouping, but most stuff didn't require the group.

I found it annoying in SWtOR where after finishing a planet, I'd have 4 to 8 group quests that were stuck in my log because there simply weren't enough people there interested in doing them.  It meant I saved them until I could go back and solo the quests later on, which kind of defeated the point of making them group quests in the first place.

Anyway, the issue isn't that I don't like to group (I do), or that I want a single player game (I don't).  It's that I don't always have people online at the same time as me, and in the same leveling area as me, interested in doing the same quests as me.  For end-game stuff like raids, that's OK, because we plan it out as a guild.  For random questing, it's obnoxious to be expected to drop what you're doing (probably leveling) to head over and help 10 other people with different quests, just for the sake of "being in a group."

If a game has a lot of group content, then it better have some really good ways to facilitate putting groups together.  Many games do not, and simply assume you'll be happy joining some mega guild with hundreds of people in it.

  Zyzra

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/07
Posts: 363

12/17/12 12:32:20 PM#148

The Secret World has several quests multiple people can work on at once.

Of course, choosing the wrong options in these quests will delay the success of the quest for everyone doing it at that time.

So some in the game have taken to trolling other players by making some quests unsolvable so long as they are there.

  xAPOCx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 893

12/17/12 12:40:16 PM#149
Originally posted by Mr_C
Originally posted by monstermmo
uhh World of Warcraft. =p

No. Which was the reason I quit playing it; cause it forced me more and more to interact with morons. If WoW offered ways to achieve all gear with solo play, I would return instantly.

Get all the gear in a day then would quit instantly.... Congrats on the time you spent in your single player mmo.

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1223

12/17/12 12:40:16 PM#150

A single player game has an ending, be it running out of content or finishing the last level. Thus, if an MMO was completely soloable it would also have an ending, and then you would be moving on to the next single player game or solo MMO. Or in the case of a soloable MMO - just an O. That said, these are the things you have to look at:

A developer creates a game that is completely soloable from start to end. What is the incentive of adding multiplayer to this if there is no multiplayer content and everyone can deal with the content alone? To add multiplayer coding, servers and stability, as well as frame rate issues when multiple characters are on screen at once, is extra work that most won't want to bother with if the game works just as well if released as a single player game.

The content will come to an end. In MMO's raids are there to act like a hamster wheel while the developers work on more content. A raid boss might drop 1 item for your class, there might be 20 of your class there, that drop might not appear every time, so you repeat the raid over and over, week after week, until you finally get what you were there for. If you're a good raider you then repeat the raid again week after week to help your friends get their items. How does this work in a soloable MMO? If you can walk into a 'raid', kill the boss on your own then grab the gear, then you've taken the hamster wheel away and the content is over an hour after you've started it. Now what do you do for the weeks to come?

What is the point of having multiple players in the game world? If you have no reason to work with them then they're nothing more than random people running back and fore. Will that make the game somehow better? What if those players were replaced by NPCs? Would you be able to tell the difference? Would it matter if you could? If everyone is soloing then these people are going to be killing the same things as you, fighting the same bosses, chasing the same treasures, so isn't that going to cause frustration rather than fun if they keep stealing your kills? Or maybe you can be in an instance, but then why is it multiplayer if you're alone in an instance?

These are just a few thoughts on why it wouldn't work, not to mention the fact that it would put the nail in the coffin for the MMO genre. MMO's are fantastic when done right, joining forces with other players to fight through dungeons and defeat Gods in their own realms. What other genre offers that sort of thing? Why would you want to kill that by making it a single player experience?

  st4t1ck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 584

12/17/12 12:52:45 PM#151

I could understand if you guys were trying to advocate for your own genre of game MSORPG  massively single player rpg.  but what your doing is trying to take something already established and change it into what you like.

gather data make graphs and do whatever you please to convince a company or some dev's that your idea would make them money and go from there. but please allow MMORPG to be multiplayer

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

12/17/12 1:00:16 PM#152
Originally posted by st4t1ck

I could understand if you guys were trying to advocate for your own genre of game MSORPG  massively single player rpg.  but what your doing is trying to take something already established and change it into what you like.

gather data make graphs and do whatever you please to convince a company or some dev's that your idea would make them money and go from there. but please allow MMORPG to be multiplayer

If "multiplayer" the way you envision it is so popular and fun, why are you afraid of soloability (which is quite different from single-player-only) ?

Why do you care that someone can kill a boss in 100 minutes you and your group take down in 10?

Flame on!

:)

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

12/17/12 1:07:42 PM#153
Originally posted by UsualSuspect

A single player game has an ending, be it running out of content or finishing the last level. Thus, if an MMO was completely soloable it would also have an ending, and then you would be moving on to the next single player game or solo MMO.

<snip>

Why do you think a soloable mmo MUST have an ending?

Where do you see a difference between raid grind hamster wheel and solo grind hamster wheel? Especially if either is optional.

Why do you think "saving time and effort" is NO reason to group?

Do you really think "soloable" means "as fast and utterly easy as with a group"?

Do you really think 90% of the lfr crowd would even notice if the players would be replaced by NPCs ?

Flame on!

:)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

12/17/12 1:15:04 PM#154
Originally posted by st4t1ck

I could understand if you guys were trying to advocate for your own genre of game MSORPG  massively single player rpg.  but what your doing is trying to take something already established and change it into what you like.

gather data make graphs and do whatever you please to convince a company or some dev's that your idea would make them money and go from there. but please allow MMORPG to be multiplayer

You sound as-if anyone here has a say in how to change MMOs.

Well, the industry evolves, just like any other ones. It *will* respond to the market. Despite whether you like it or not, or i like it or not, soloability is now a MMO issue. How many MMO do you see advertise "ability to solo play"?

And you are also under the wrong impression that MMO has to be either multiplayer or solo. It can and is for both. I can solo in WOW. I can *also* play MP in WOW. Ditto in a long long list of MMOs.

  darkhalf357x

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1110

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

12/17/12 1:27:10 PM#155
Originally posted by hockeyplayr
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by hockeyplayr

You can't because then it loses the MM part in Mmorpg

There has to be some group content in it otherwise it is a single player game that just requires an internet connection..

If the MMO is supposed to be forced grouping...it should be the WHOLE game. Not being able to solo everything, then suddenly hit a brick wall. The MMO (MMORPG or otherwise) should be quick and easy to play.

Plus, the MMO genre is changing. No longer are you forced to spend 15 dollars a month...and it also encompasses many genres and games. Things change and evolve.

 

People should WANT to group with someone. Not be forced to group up with them.

 

Another reason may be because they'd have to publish more content then.  When people have to coordinate together things are bound to go wrong at some point.  This forces people to have to retry the same content on top of having to grind it as well.  If it was set up for one person, someone would just come up with a guide for that class and everyone would blast through it

Good point, but also exposes the flaw of basing the longevity / core of a game on content.   Its unsustainable.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

12/17/12 1:34:24 PM#156
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
 

Good point, but also exposes the flaw of basing the longevity / core of a game on content.   Its unsustainable.

Only for 1 game. But people don't only play one game. I have a long list of games i don't have time to finish. It is certainly sustainable from my point of view. I will never run out of video game entertainment.

  darkhalf357x

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1110

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

12/17/12 1:37:08 PM#157
Originally posted by Onomas

Majority of people think mmorpgs are about quests and story now. Thats the problem lol. There is a lot more to a mmorpg, just over time game companies have neglected those things and obmitted them from game to save time so they can rush their product. Probably why those games rush to f2p or the garbage can.

Grouping use to be fun, it had meaning. Todays games its just a chore. Meeting new people, making friends in game, forming or joining guilds, helping your guild out, helping noobs out, it was fun and had meaning. Now you have people that rush to max level and dont know their class properly or how to act in a group. In SWTOR, once the group was done people just left the group, didnt bother to say thanks, or have a good day. Kind of opposite of social interaction ;)

The main caveat missing here is that games in the past were (effectively) new and had a smaller but dedicated audience.  EQ wasn't catering to a mass market because it didnt exist.  Therefore it only drew the dedicated which while small by todays standards, shared (more than likely) the same principles about gaming.  You help me and I help you.

Fast forward 10 years.  Gaming isnt some 'geek' activity that 'nerds' play like it was when I started.  Today, EVERYBODY plays games in some form or fashion. Be it social games on facebook, web-based games, cell phone games, etc.  That massive increase in population also splinters the genre.  Where we had 3-4 MMOs today we have hundreds.

Its like playing with friends growing up in a small rural town where everyone knows everyone else, versus growing in a major city where your friends are spread out.  The collective of a small town will always be closer (in terms of perspective) than that of a major city... due to the sheer number of people.

I think WoW is handling the soloability aspect the best.  Provide a LFG / LFR mechanic (where balance is the key to quality vs crap).  This way everyone gets to experience the game.  Make an actual RAID harder than LFR for the hard core raiding crowd.  I know they complain about people "not good enough" being able to get the same loot, but honestly in this time and age they may have to get over it (or find a niche game created specifically for them).

  st4t1ck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 584

12/17/12 1:39:11 PM#158
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by st4t1ck

I could understand if you guys were trying to advocate for your own genre of game MSORPG  massively single player rpg.  but what your doing is trying to take something already established and change it into what you like.

gather data make graphs and do whatever you please to convince a company or some dev's that your idea would make them money and go from there. but please allow MMORPG to be multiplayer

If "multiplayer" the way you envision it is so popular and fun, why are you afraid of soloability (which is quite different from single-player-only) ?

Why do you care that someone can kill a boss in 100 minutes you and your group take down in 10?

Flame on!

:)

because if everything is solo'able then all the tough content that people fail on, or takes a long time to complete most people will just go and do it themselves. and that changes the game for everyone else.  and fine with being able to solo.  just not the toughest of content.  doesnt make sense at all that you can do the same thing me and 5 others just struggled to do and were the same level

  st4t1ck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 584

12/17/12 1:42:50 PM#159
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by st4t1ck

I could understand if you guys were trying to advocate for your own genre of game MSORPG  massively single player rpg.  but what your doing is trying to take something already established and change it into what you like.

gather data make graphs and do whatever you please to convince a company or some dev's that your idea would make them money and go from there. but please allow MMORPG to be multiplayer

You sound as-if anyone here has a say in how to change MMOs.

Well, the industry evolves, just like any other ones. It *will* respond to the market. Despite whether you like it or not, or i like it or not, soloability is now a MMO issue. How many MMO do you see advertise "ability to solo play"?

And you are also under the wrong impression that MMO has to be either multiplayer or solo. It can and is for both. I can solo in WOW. I can *also* play MP in WOW. Ditto in a long long list of MMOs.

The industry is evolving into something that isnt working.  look at all the f2p games,  games shutting down,  or games just surving, 

Again I'm not saying that there cant be anything to solo in games,  or that you can't get to max level on your own,  but to say that everything should be solo, i dont think is right.

My favorite mmo is still FFXI and even i think that its on the extreme side of grouping.   I think what the OP is after is the other extreme. and i believe that the best format lies in the middle of that

  darkhalf357x

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1110

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

12/17/12 1:46:08 PM#160
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
 

Good point, but also exposes the flaw of basing the longevity / core of a game on content.   Its unsustainable.

Only for 1 game. But people don't only play one game. I have a long list of games i don't have time to finish. It is certainly sustainable from my point of view. I will never run out of video game entertainment.

I agree.  From a single player point of view you can switch games.  My point was basing a game by creating content (alone) can not survive well in the long run.  The ones who DONT switch games and want to stay around will get bored.  The selling point of a MMO is the fact that it is online and understood that it doesnt have an end.   Now the industry may very well be trying to change this definition but this is how it started.

I used to play consoles (20+ years) and can tell you the draw of an MMO for me *IS* the fact that the game never ends.  I dont WANT to leave to a different game if I didnt have to.  The online aspect says I dont have the constraint of a medium (can only put so much game on a physical format).  MMOs were supposed to be worlds or a persistent space that you could share (solo if your prefer) with others.  It was a concept of systems driven by the population itself.

We have since (unfortunately) moved away from that model and developers have adopted a more 'console' approach. Finite content with promises to add expac (read: DLC) on top of it.   It may succeed but they will alienate (I believe) a large portion of the audience who expected something else based on what we played in the past.

And honestly thats ok.  Things do change.  But call it something else like Video Game Online.   But its NOT an MMO.   What I think needs to happen is the market needs to go niche.  Instead of trying to create that one AAA game for EVERYBODY.   Create a smaller game for each subset.   Wouldnt it be great is a developer focused 100% of a FULLY Soloability type game with limited to no grouping.  I would suspect players who like that gamestyle would support and play that game.  Make a hardcore raiding game where each raid is harder than the other.  You get the idea.  If you give what each set of gamers want I believe we would have greater success than trying to (still) put everything in the same game... which I have only seen each side complaining about how weak/unecessary the other side is.

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