Originally posted by st4t1ck
coin and loot yea, but i can far surpass my xp gain soloing / questing then in group doing actual group content

Currenlty in WoW the fastest way to get to end game is dungeon runs. 

If you can solo it ,then how easy would it be for 5 or 6 or 24?

Scalable content is a dumb idea ruins everything from immersion to player advancement to creature identity.

How tough was that level 50 boss?Oh he was nothing i beat him at level 1 because he scales down to me........./sigh sad game design.

I am sure there are a lot of people who really have no idea how things are designed or accomplished,i do know and i can truly say the 5-6 man group idea works for a reason.More than that is NOT needed and solo just ruins everything.

Tank/DPS/CC/Healing there is 4 ,i am sure creative minds can think of a couple more ideas to fill in the 5/6 spots or just have 2 of any of those ROLE playing ideas.Bottom line is you can't fill ROLES with ONE role and you don't need 32 players to fill 4/5/6 roles.There is no real secret to why games for so long have gone with the 4/5/6 idea,it just works.

Originally posted by Wizardry

If you can solo it ,then how easy would it be for 5 or 6 or 24?

Possibly no different, if the key to beating the boss doesn't only depend on dps

Scalable content is a dumb idea ruins everything from immersion to player advancement to creature identity.

Subjective - not worth a comment

How tough was that level 50 boss?Oh he was nothing i beat him at level 1 because he scales down to me........./sigh sad game design.

Possibly no different, if the key to beating the boss doesn't only depend on dps

I am sure there are a lot of people who really have no idea how things are designed or accomplished,i do know and i can truly say the 5-6 man group idea works for a reason.More than that is NOT needed and solo just ruins everything.

Tank/DPS/CC/Healing there is 4 ,i am sure creative minds can think of a couple more ideas to fill in the 5/6 spots or just have 2 of any of those ROLE playing ideas.Bottom line is you can't fill ROLES with ONE role and you don't need 32 players to fill 4/5/6 roles.There is no real secret to why games for so long have gone with the 4/5/6 idea,it just works.

 

Was easier just to copy the same answer as it applied to the whole post.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Not yet.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it cant' exist. 

I never had trouble with quests in MMO's (other than time) till TSW. 

me either. and if the mmo genre can prove me wrong i'd be ok with that. but the way it is now thats why i dont want solo players doing endgame raid or being able to get every item/gear in game alone.

solo content i welcome as long as there's group content that is at least on par exp/loot gain as solo'ing.  which it hasn't been latley

I would agree with that.  The way solo is done now is typically grindy, easy or both. 

However group content still has the best loot, coin and xp even in todays' games. 

The problem is tha the old games like Lineage and UO had one type of content.  It could be solo'd or grouped.  Grouping was safer and faster, but you had to share xp rewards.  Soloing was much more risky but could be more lucrative.

The problem with todays games is that they've made two types of content.  I don't think there is a solution when there is both solo and group content in a game.  The game will have to go back to one style of content and it will also need to have greater risks.  The risks in Lineage were that you could die and lose xp and your gear.  People who died in a group had friends near by to pick up the dropped loot and to rez you for a lesser xp penalty.

For the EQ descendents their only option really is to have a content divide.  If and until that is bridged the problem won't go away.  We might never see games like those old ones again because some of the things that made them great and flexible aren't popular.

Whoever said smaller niche games are the solution, are probably right.  A large mass appeal game just won't do it right in either direction.  The closest we've come to that may be GW2 and TSW but each have their flaws or design aspects which end up removing what was so fun about gaining rare loot in the older games.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

The problem is tha the old games like Lineage and UO had one type of content.  I

Torvaldr, the problem you just presented seems to be that some people only see murdering stuff as content. Either that you or made a mistake in your examples. :)

Originally posted by Wizardry

If you can solo it ,then how easy would it be for 5 or 6 or 24?

Scalable content is a dumb idea ruins everything from immersion to player advancement to creature identity.

How tough was that level 50 boss?Oh he was nothing i beat him at level 1 because he scales down to me........./sigh sad game design.

I am sure there are a lot of people who really have no idea how things are designed or accomplished,i do know and i can truly say the 5-6 man group idea works for a reason.More than that is NOT needed and solo just ruins everything.

Tank/DPS/CC/Healing there is 4 ,i am sure creative minds can think of a couple more ideas to fill in the 5/6 spots or just have 2 of any of those ROLE playing ideas.Bottom line is you can't fill ROLES with ONE role and you don't need 32 players to fill 4/5/6 roles.There is no real secret to why games for so long have gone with the 4/5/6 idea,it just works.

You say that because you're basing your perspective on the EQ / FFXI game design philosophy.  Other games have done this successfully.  It just depends on the design.  One thing that I think has propelled that sort of design philosophy is tied deeply to subscription retention.  The whole idea around forced grouping is to get more people to sub for a longer term.

It is possible to design game play that promotes group play while providing freedom to play how you like.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Torvaldr

The problem is tha the old games like Lineage and UO had one type of content.  I

Torvaldr, the problem you just presented seems to be that some people only see murdering stuff as content. Either that you or made a mistake in your examples. :)

No, you are right.  The problem is actually kind of complicated and I was speaking only to "stabby" content.  Lineage was a very simple game in mechanics and only offered stabby stuff to do.  It didn't have real crafting, although it did have an enchantment system that could (and typically did) lead to item loss.  The non-stabby content was community generated politics that often led to stabby stuff.

By one type of content I'm referring to content designed as a single system.  Current games split their stabby content into solo and group stuff.  The non-stabby content is mostly all solo.  Occasionally it requires you to do solo or group stabby content to progress.  For example to craft a rare and powerful item you might need a raid dropped component even though you're still crafting it solo.

Until games stop dividing their content types between group and solo I don't really see an end to the problem.  The even greater travesty with this sort of design is that it segregates players into regions where they play.  Groupers are mostly in instances, soloers/duo players mostly overland with the occasional "semi-group" blotches on the map.

THe other problem is that mostly everything being made is all stabby and doesn't have deep engaging systems that include non-genocidal activities.  Until the the game supports non-violent activities as much as the stabby stuff we won't see progress on that front either.  That's what makes it even more complex in my opinion.

Originally posted by tman5
MMOSPG?

Doesn't sound right does it, but I guess those that want to play in a world with hundreds of thousands or million of other players without every saying a word to another player can still Role Play.  They are role playing at being loners.  Most games now-a-days are soloable until endgame anyway.  Gotta love the only innovation WoW gave to the genre.  Hurry up until the end then group and figure out how to deal with other people and play your class in a group vice solo environment.

Originally posted by gravesworn
Skyrim or any of the Elder scrolls games would be a good choice, if you have an issue with mmos not being soloable then I would suggest the infinite amount of single player rpgs out there.

What if i want to solo fight mobs, but trade with massive number of people? Except Diablo 3, there aren' t any other single player RPG allowing me to do that out there, is it?

So i have to go to a MMO, if i want to solo adventure, but trade with lots of playres.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Torvaldr

The problem is tha the old games like Lineage and UO had one type of content.  I

Torvaldr, the problem you just presented seems to be that some people only see murdering stuff as content. Either that you or made a mistake in your examples. :)

No, you are right.  The problem is actually kind of complicated and I was speaking only to "stabby" content.  Lineage was a very simple game in mechanics and only offered stabby stuff to do.  It didn't have real crafting, although it did have an enchantment system that could (and typically did) lead to item loss.  The non-stabby content was community generated politics that often led to stabby stuff.

By one type of content I'm referring to content designed as a single system.  Current games split their stabby content into solo and group stuff.  The non-stabby content is mostly all solo.  Occasionally it requires you to do solo or group stabby content to progress.  For example to craft a rare and powerful item you might need a raid dropped component even though you're still crafting it solo.

Until games stop dividing their content types between group and solo I don't really see an end to the problem.  The even greater travesty with this sort of design is that it segregates players into regions where they play.  Groupers are mostly in instances, soloers/duo players mostly overland with the occasional "semi-group" blotches on the map.

THe other problem is that mostly everything being made is all stabby and doesn't have deep engaging systems that include non-genocidal activities.  Until the the game supports non-violent activities as much as the stabby stuff we won't see progress on that front either.  That's what makes it even more complex in my opinion.

Ok, I follow where you're going with that now. Thanks for explaining that.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by st4t1ck

I could understand if you guys were trying to advocate for your own genre of game MSORPG  massively single player rpg.  but what your doing is trying to take something already established and change it into what you like.

gather data make graphs and do whatever you please to convince a company or some dev's that your idea would make them money and go from there. but please allow MMORPG to be multiplayer

If "multiplayer" the way you envision it is so popular and fun, why are you afraid of soloability (which is quite different from single-player-only) ?

Why do you care that someone can kill a boss in 100 minutes you and your group take down in 10?

Flame on!

:)

because if everything is solo'able then all the tough content that people fail on, or takes a long time to complete most people will just go and do it themselves. and that changes the game for everyone else.  and fine with being able to solo.  just not the toughest of content.  doesnt make sense at all that you can do the same thing me and 5 others just struggled to do and were the same level

So you feel that content that is soloable can't be tough?  or you can't fail at?

It can fail, but it will always be the easiest out.  you only have yourself to worry about,  i have yet to find content ment for solo'ing that was as tough as things i needed groups to do.. maybe it isnt that the content is tougher in itself and the fact that 5 (or whatever makes a group in game) other people have to work together and leaves room for more human error.  

 

Why will it always be the easiest way out.  If it takes 100 x as long, that doesn't sound like the easiest way out.  If it takes research or real strategy to solve, that doesn't sound like the easiest way out. 

By and large (there are a few exceptions) I haven't found any group content that was any tougher than pushing 2 or 3 buttons every few seconds, you could train a bird to do that. 

It's very very very conceivable that a more challenging content could be solo becaus they cant' produce the dps or have the healing/hp that a group can.  So another strategy is needed. 

buy you have found solo content in an mmo that was meant to be solo'ed tougher?

Not yet.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it cant' exist. 

I never had trouble with quests in MMO's (other than time) till TSW. 

me either. and if the mmo genre can prove me wrong i'd be ok with that. but the way it is now thats why i dont want solo players doing endgame raid or being able to get every item/gear in game alone.

solo content i welcome as long as there's group content that is at least on par exp/loot gain as solo'ing.  which it hasn't been latley

I would agree with that.  The way solo is done now is typically grindy, easy or both. 

However group content still has the best loot, coin and xp even in todays' games. 

As it should be.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Torvaldr

No, you are right.  The problem is actually kind of complicated and I was speaking only to "stabby" content.  Lineage was a very simple game in mechanics and only offered stabby stuff to do.  It didn't have real crafting, although it did have an enchantment system that could (and typically did) lead to item loss.  The non-stabby content was community generated politics that often led to stabby stuff.

By one type of content I'm referring to content designed as a single system.  Current games split their stabby content into solo and group stuff.  The non-stabby content is mostly all solo.  Occasionally it requires you to do solo or group stabby content to progress.  For example to craft a rare and powerful item you might need a raid dropped component even though you're still crafting it solo.

Until games stop dividing their content types between group and solo I don't really see an end to the problem.  The even greater travesty with this sort of design is that it segregates players into regions where they play.  Groupers are mostly in instances, soloers/duo players mostly overland with the occasional "semi-group" blotches on the map.

THe other problem is that mostly everything being made is all stabby and doesn't have deep engaging systems that include non-genocidal activities.  Until the the game supports non-violent activities as much as the stabby stuff we won't see progress on that front either.  That's what makes it even more complex in my opinion.

Ok, I follow where you're going with that now. Thanks for explaining that.

If it would be simple we would be all making highly successfull mmorpgs instead of raging on forums.

But it is very complicated and complex.

The stabby thing reminded me of one thing, in Runescape (once again), the devs have dedicated servers to enable players to circumvent game mechanics, like there is a dangerous area where there are good fishing spots (food == hp pot), so there are oficially selected servers where people kill the dangerous creatures so other people can fish, UNTHINKABLE, did you remember the uproar in swtor (was it?) about wintrading in pvp ?

So...

WHEN EXACTLY did the game, its mechanics, mobs and environment CEASED to be the enemy?

If you look around, not just here, on the forums, but in the game, it seems that every group of players has some persistent (he he he, sandbox) hatred towards an other group of players, solo vs group, noobs vs vets, raiders vs puggers, pve vs pvp...

When i remember when it was the bosses doing wiping the raid (maybe beign broken or OP), not the pvp players requesting nerfs in healing, and so on...

But enough of this, carry on the solo vs group forum pvp :)

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by gravesworn
Skyrim or any of the Elder scrolls games would be a good choice, if you have an issue with mmos not being soloable then I would suggest the infinite amount of single player rpgs out there.

What if i want to solo fight mobs, but trade with massive number of people? Except Diablo 3, there aren' t any other single player RPG allowing me to do that out there, is it?

So i have to go to a MMO, if i want to solo adventure, but trade with lots of playres.

Trading is not popular and it is costly to produce, you should accept the evolution of mmos with bop and/or without trading, wow has 10m subs with a bop system, eve just 300k, your argument is invalid!

He he he, sorry.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by st4t1ck

I could understand if you guys were trying to advocate for your own genre of game MSORPG  massively single player rpg.  but what your doing is trying to take something already established and change it into what you like.

gather data make graphs and do whatever you please to convince a company or some dev's that your idea would make them money and go from there. but please allow MMORPG to be multiplayer

If "multiplayer" the way you envision it is so popular and fun, why are you afraid of soloability (which is quite different from single-player-only) ?

Why do you care that someone can kill a boss in 100 minutes you and your group take down in 10?

Flame on!

:)

because if everything is solo'able then all the tough content that people fail on, or takes a long time to complete most people will just go and do it themselves. and that changes the game for everyone else.  and fine with being able to solo.  just not the toughest of content.  doesnt make sense at all that you can do the same thing me and 5 others just struggled to do and were the same level

So you feel that content that is soloable can't be tough?  or you can't fail at?

It can fail, but it will always be the easiest out.  you only have yourself to worry about,  i have yet to find content ment for solo'ing that was as tough as things i needed groups to do.. maybe it isnt that the content is tougher in itself and the fact that 5 (or whatever makes a group in game) other people have to work together and leaves room for more human error.  

 

Why will it always be the easiest way out.  If it takes 100 x as long, that doesn't sound like the easiest way out.  If it takes research or real strategy to solve, that doesn't sound like the easiest way out. 

By and large (there are a few exceptions) I haven't found any group content that was any tougher than pushing 2 or 3 buttons every few seconds, you could train a bird to do that. 

It's very very very conceivable that a more challenging content could be solo becaus they cant' produce the dps or have the healing/hp that a group can.  So another strategy is needed. 

buy you have found solo content in an mmo that was meant to be solo'ed tougher?

Not yet.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it cant' exist. 

I never had trouble with quests in MMO's (other than time) till TSW. 

me either. and if the mmo genre can prove me wrong i'd be ok with that. but the way it is now thats why i dont want solo players doing endgame raid or being able to get every item/gear in game alone.

solo content i welcome as long as there's group content that is at least on par exp/loot gain as solo'ing.  which it hasn't been latley

I would agree with that.  The way solo is done now is typically grindy, easy or both. 

However group content still has the best loot, coin and xp even in todays' games. 

As it should be.

I agree with you but that flies in the face of this entire thread.  Those that support this thread want to be able to get exactly what you and I would get for grouping.  Otherwise they are being treated unfairly and you know that in America at least, everyone deserves to get their fair share even if they don't have to work to get it.