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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The industry is expanding the definition of MMO

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175 posts found
  Indol

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 192

12/16/12 9:37:24 AM#41

At a certain point definitions have to make sense though.

 

There is a difference between League of Legends and World of Warcraft at a very basic level beyond the RTS nature of LoL. One allows huge populations to simultaneously interact and one allows 10 people to interact at any given time. This is the huge difference between MMO's and Multiplayer Online games that caused the term MMO to be conjured up in the first place.

 

MMO is a description of something that actually exists, so it's not really useful to use it to describe things that it doesn't describe. If you use the term MMO to describe LoL, you're basically saying MMO means Online. But Online already means online. Things have to make sense in order for people to communicate.

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2159

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

12/16/12 9:38:05 AM#42

I'm not sure that some people are denying that the definition of MMO is expanding.

They are just upset, in this expanding market, there seems to be no room for a game conceived from the original definition.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/16/12 9:38:34 AM#43
Originally posted by lizardbones

Definitions exist for things that are inherently what they are, and then there are definitions of ideas. A rose is what it is. You can change the definition, but then you're no longer describing a rose. "MMO" is an idea. It was made up from scratch and doesn't exist outside of human experience. It makes just as much sense for the definition of "MMO" to be one thing as it does for it to be another thing because they are all just concepts.

 

Concreta vs. Abstracta, yes.

Didn't we have the same discussion just a week back, regarding the slippery term "success"?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Onomas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1138

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

12/16/12 9:39:47 AM#44
Originally posted by Indol
At a certain point definitions have to make sense though. There is a difference between League of Legends and World of Warcraft at a very basic level beyond the RTS nature of LoL. One allows huge populations to simultaneous interact and one allows 10 people to interact at any given time. This is the huge difference between MMO's and Multiplayer Online games that caused the term MMO to be conjured up in the first place. It's a description of something that actually exists, so it's not really useful to use it to describe things that it doesn't describe. That's just poor vocabulary.

Why i feel instancing has no place in the mmorpg domain. Instancing actualy breaks the game down and limits you, the opposite of mmo ;)

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 9:50:49 AM#45
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Cuathon
Quizz, the real indicator of mmo status is massively multiplayer. How many people does your activity affect? LoL is not an MMO because the actions in one game do not change the experience of players within the whole game. EvE is an MMO because the actions of any given player permanently alter the experience of many other players.

 

MMO is the new ironically, or the new literally. Does the rampant misuse of ironic in popular culture change the meaning? I would say no. Therefore the same applies to MMO.

Unfortunately the people who make sense are vastly outnumbered by the plebs so we can't assume that anything means what it meant 10 minutes ago much less 10 years ago.




The original definition of MMO depended on a persistent, shared world. This allowed for a massive amount of interaction. Player 0 could do something in the world that Player 1,000 could see and that Player 10,000 could see, even though there were limited slots on the server and all the zones were instanced, etc. It wasn't how many players were on and interacting at any given time, it would was how many interactions were happening over a long period of time because the world was persistent.

If you drop the persistent, shared world requirement (which the industry seems to be doing), you can still have a massive amount of interaction. Player 0 can interact with Player 1,000 in LoL. They can also interaction with Player 2 and Player 10,000. It allows for a massive amount of interaction. The only thing that's been dropped as a requirement is the persistent, shared world. It has nothing to do with the number of people and nothing to do with making a permanent, sandbox style change to the world. Players can interact through an Auction House and it's still an interaction. Players can send each other mail and it's an interaction.

Definitions exist for things that are inherently what they are, and then there are definitions of ideas. A rose is what it is. You can change the definition, but then you're no longer describing a rose. "MMO" is an idea. It was made up from scratch and doesn't exist outside of human experience. It makes just as much sense for the definition of "MMO" to be one thing as it does for it to be another thing because they are all just concepts.

 

You are right. Clearly all lobby based coop multiplayer games are MMOs. That makes total sense. Its not like those games already had a genre name and companies stick MMO on in order to justify all their ridiculous money sinks.

Did you know that Starcraft 2 is an MMO now? I didn't but thanks for telling me. Excuse me while I go play Draw Something, once one of the most popular MMOs of all time.

  NobleNerd

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/08/08
Posts: 407

Try not!
Do or do not
There is no try.

12/16/12 9:57:21 AM#46

The MMO brand has been abused by many trying to find a place to market their game. I believe we can easily agree that some games that label themselves as a MMO are not. If a game only allows for you to join a group of 10 people for an arena style fight match like LoL then it is not a MMO. The fact that there are millions playing the game does not make it an MMO if they can only join in with limited number of people through a lobby system. 

The first MMOs had a gameplay style more focused on RPing and most people that played those games were old time pen and paper D&D players so the first games had a big role playing community. To say that all MMOs have to have that in their games or they aren't a MMO is silly. There are many generations now that do not even understand what it is to RP (which imo is sad), so to have the mind set that all MMORPGs need to be RP focused is just crazy, but there should be a server or 2 that focuses and allows for this style of gameplay.

I believe it doesn't matter how the industry tries to define the term MMO, after a while it will work itself out and more defined terms will be invented. I just enjoy watching some devs. try to push the limits and create something new. We need more dreamers and doers, less complainers and ankle biters!

 

Keep on keeping on!

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/16/12 9:59:11 AM#47
Originally posted by Cuathon

You are right. Clearly all lobby based coop multiplayer games are MMOs. That makes total sense. Its not like those games already had a genre name and companies stick MMO on in order to justify all their ridiculous money sinks.

Did you know that Starcraft 2 is an MMO now? I didn't but thanks for telling me. Excuse me while I go play Draw Something, once one of the most popular MMOs of all time.

Oh, stop being so dramatic.

All of those Shooters have been stealing more and more character-development ideas from MMOs for just years now.  They've got talent trees, they've got story lines, they've got loot collection, they've got questgivers..  We've reached the point where greater and greater fineness is required from the hair-splitting to make any distinction at all.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 10:01:31 AM#48
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Cuathon

You are right. Clearly all lobby based coop multiplayer games are MMOs. That makes total sense. Its not like those games already had a genre name and companies stick MMO on in order to justify all their ridiculous money sinks.

Did you know that Starcraft 2 is an MMO now? I didn't but thanks for telling me. Excuse me while I go play Draw Something, once one of the most popular MMOs of all time.

Oh, stop being so dramatic.

All of those Shooters have been stealing more and more character-development ideas from MMOs for just years now.  They've got talent trees, they've got story lines, they've got loot collection, they've got questgivers..  We've reached the point where greater and greater fineness is required from the hair-splitting to make any distinction at all.

Based on his definition of MMO Draw Something now qualifies as an MMO. This logically follows from his argument that LoL is an MMO because you have lots of players even if there are never more than 10 playing together at a time.

This is not hair splitting. You cannot define MMOs the way he has without including game like Starcraft 2 and Draw Something as MMOs.

 

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

12/16/12 10:03:22 AM#49


Originally posted by Quizzical
What if League of Legends had 100 players per match instead of 10?  How about 1000 players per match?  10000?  Surely affecting 10000 people constitutes massively multiplayer.  If you're going to argue that it isn't because it doesn't affect everyone, then WoW isn't an MMO either, because what happens on one server doesn't affect people on other servers.

I would ague that if LoL had 1000 per side it would qualify as an "MMO". It however would not qualify as a mmorpg.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/16/12 10:03:40 AM#50

And sooner or later, the two genres growing together will meet each other in the middle.

Put the fingers in your ears and chant nahnahnah if it helps with denial, but it's happening all around your industry already.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6498

12/16/12 10:06:07 AM#51

I think OP is confusing mmo and mmorpg.

 

A sqaure is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square type of thing. Mmorpgs are mmos, but mmos are not mmorpgs.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 10:06:35 AM#52
Originally posted by Icewhite

And sooner or later, the two genres growing together will meet each other in the middle.

Put the fingers in your ears and chant nahnahnah if it helps with denial, but it's happening all around your industry already.

You still havent explained how Starcraft 2 doesn't count as an MMO but League of Legends does.

They are both online games with random matchmaking and massive player bases. Which is what LizardBones used to define the new MMO very explicitly in his post.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/16/12 10:08:19 AM#53
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Icewhite

And sooner or later, the two genres growing together will meet each other in the middle.

Put the fingers in your ears and chant nahnahnah if it helps with denial, but it's happening all around your industry already.

You still havent explained how Starcraft 2 doesn't count as an MMO but League of Legends does.

They are both online games with random matchmaking and massive player bases. Which is what LizardBones used to define the new MMO very explicitly in his post.

I'm not Lizardbones. If you want him to explain his reasoning--asking him seems a reasonable course of action.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 10:08:23 AM#54

"Player 0 can interact with Player 1,000 in LoL. They can also interaction with Player 2 and Player 10,000. It allows for a massive amount of interaction. The only thing that's been dropped as a requirement is the persistent, shared world. It has nothing to do with the number of people and nothing to do with making a permanent, sandbox style change to the world. Players can interact through an Auction House and it's still an interaction. Players can send each other mail and it's an interaction."

 

"Player 0 can interact with Player 1,000 in Starcraft 2. They can also interaction with Player 2 and Player 10,000. It allows for a massive amount of interaction. The only thing that's been dropped as a requirement is the persistent, shared world. It has nothing to do with the number of people and nothing to do with making a permanent, sandbox style change to the world. Players can interact through an Auction House and it's still an interaction. Players can send each other mail and it's an interaction."

 

 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 10:10:09 AM#55
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Icewhite

And sooner or later, the two genres growing together will meet each other in the middle.

Put the fingers in your ears and chant nahnahnah if it helps with denial, but it's happening all around your industry already.

You still havent explained how Starcraft 2 doesn't count as an MMO but League of Legends does.

They are both online games with random matchmaking and massive player bases. Which is what LizardBones used to define the new MMO very explicitly in his post.

I'm not Lizardbones. If you want him to explain his reasoning--asking him seems a reasonable course of action.

You responded to my post responding to him saying I was being dramatic. I was not being dramatic. His definition to include LoL includes Starcraft 2.

If you want to assert that I was being dramatic then you have to explain how my claim doesn't follow from his claim.

It has nothing to do with his reasoning. I was calling YOUR reasoning into question.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/16/12 10:12:17 AM#56
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Icewhite

And sooner or later, the two genres growing together will meet each other in the middle.

Put the fingers in your ears and chant nahnahnah if it helps with denial, but it's happening all around your industry already.

You still havent explained how Starcraft 2 doesn't count as an MMO but League of Legends does.

They are both online games with random matchmaking and massive player bases. Which is what LizardBones used to define the new MMO very explicitly in his post.

I'm not Lizardbones. If you want him to explain his reasoning--asking him seems a reasonable course of action.

You responded to my post responding to him saying I was being dramatic. I was not being dramatic. His definition to include LoL includes Starcraft 2.

Okay, that's me, talking to you.

Where you went wrong is "You still haven't explained (an argument you never made)".  Understand?

If you want to talk to Lizardbones, address him.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

12/16/12 10:12:45 AM#57


Originally posted by Cuathon
"Player 0 can interact with Player 1,000 in LoL. They can also interaction with Player 2 and Player 10,000. It allows for a massive amount of interaction. The only thing that's been dropped as a requirement is the persistent, shared world. It has nothing to do with the number of people and nothing to do with making a permanent, sandbox style change to the world. Players can interact through an Auction House and it's still an interaction. Players can send each other mail and it's an interaction."

doom with irc does not make doom mmo.

Mmo/rpg also has a concurrent connection requirement.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 10:14:26 AM#58
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Cuathon

You are right. Clearly all lobby based coop multiplayer games are MMOs. That makes total sense. Its not like those games already had a genre name and companies stick MMO on in order to justify all their ridiculous money sinks.

Did you know that Starcraft 2 is an MMO now? I didn't but thanks for telling me. Excuse me while I go play Draw Something, once one of the most popular MMOs of all time.

Oh, stop being so dramatic.

All of those Shooters have been stealing more and more character-development ideas from MMOs for just years now.  They've got talent trees, they've got story lines, they've got loot collection, they've got questgivers..  We've reached the point where greater and greater fineness is required from the hair-splitting to make any distinction at all.

This is what I said. And what you said.

Understand?

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 10:15:36 AM#59
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Cuathon
"Player 0 can interact with Player 1,000 in LoL. They can also interaction with Player 2 and Player 10,000. It allows for a massive amount of interaction. The only thing that's been dropped as a requirement is the persistent, shared world. It has nothing to do with the number of people and nothing to do with making a permanent, sandbox style change to the world. Players can interact through an Auction House and it's still an interaction. Players can send each other mail and it's an interaction."


 

doom with irc does not make doom mmo.

Mmo/rpg also has a concurrent connection requirement.

Its not my argument. Its LizardBones' argument. I was demon strating how the identical argument with just the names replaced applies to Starcraft 2.

I agree with you. At least everyone hasn't gone insane.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/16/12 10:17:54 AM#60
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Cuathon

You are right. Clearly all lobby based coop multiplayer games are MMOs. That makes total sense. Its not like those games already had a genre name and companies stick MMO on in order to justify all their ridiculous money sinks.

Did you know that Starcraft 2 is an MMO now? I didn't but thanks for telling me. Excuse me while I go play Draw Something, once one of the most popular MMOs of all time.

Oh, stop being so dramatic.

All of those Shooters have been stealing more and more character-development ideas from MMOs for just years now.  They've got talent trees, they've got story lines, they've got loot collection, they've got questgivers..  We've reached the point where greater and greater fineness is required from the hair-splitting to make any distinction at all.

This is what I said. And what you said.

Understand?

Good.  Where in there did I say "You're so right LB, I totally agree with everything you ever said!?"  Where did I volunteer to explain his arguments? How the hell did we get off on this irrelevancy at all?

And you were being dramatic---reductio ad absurdum is by definition a dramatic tactic.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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