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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The industry is expanding the definition of MMO

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175 posts found
  Trudge34

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

12/16/12 12:35:34 AM#21
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Trudge34
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Cuathon

Quizz, the real indicator of mmo status is massively multiplayer. How many people does your activity affect? LoL is not an MMO because the actions in one game do not change the experience of players within the whole game. EvE is an MMO because the actions of any given player permanently alter the experience of many other players.

That's an interesting effort, but it doesn't resolve the question.

What if League of Legends had 100 players per match instead of 10?  How about 1000 players per match?  10000?  Surely affecting 10000 people constitutes massively multiplayer.  If you're going to argue that it isn't because it doesn't affect everyone, then WoW isn't an MMO either, because what happens on one server doesn't affect people on other servers.

And again, we can't go strictly by the number of players.  We can agree that EVE is definitely an MMO.  But what if it were unpopular, and only 50 people played it?  Surely it would still be an MMO, wouldn't it?  Shouldn't being an MMO be something about game design rather than popularity?

If it's about affecting everyone in the entire game, then what if League of Legends were unpopular to the degree that there were never multiple matches running simultaneously.  Surely that wouldn't make it an MMO if it isn't now, would it?

If it's about permanence, then you'd have to argue that the periodic wipes of A Tale in the Desert make it not an MMO.  And that surely can't be right, as one player there can more strongly affect everyone else than in any other game I'm aware of.

Good thoughts and great questions but it's getting all too complicated for me trying to define what an MMORPG is vs a MMO vs virtual world simulation.

These days, all I can say is I know when I'm in a MMORPG (as I perceive them)  vs when I'm not, even if I can't describe it in a way that anyone would agree with me on.

All I can say is, I know porn when I see it.

-The Supreme Court Of The United States

You are in illustrious company here Kyleran.

LOL, actually these days I'm feeling more and more like "the cheese stands alone". 

Pretty sure I know how the last dinosaur felt before slipping off into extinction....... I hope I remember to turn off the lights....

 

 

I wouldn't say you're alone there Ky. I've read enough where I know we don't have the same ideal MMORPG in mind, the basic mechanics behind what we think should be one are the same. (Just saying you're looking for more of a DAOC, I prefer more EQ. :) )

But as far as the definition of MMO goes...from my experience with EQ and from when PoP got released this is what I've come up with. An MMO needs to have a persistant, living, breathing world to be considered one. The focus of the game should be the world and the player's interaction with it. Be that city / house building, different factions and your standing with them, RvR, etc depends on the dev's vision of what they want their game's identity. Anything that detracts from the world feeling (In EQ, when the PoP books or even portals to Luclin were introduced, shrinking the world) detracts from it.

That's not "in order to be an MMO".  That's "in order to be a game that you personally like".

On another note, innovative games are often hard to classify, so having a "does this really count as genre X" discussion isn't a bad sign.

No, that's where you're wrong. I come here to talk about MMOs specifically, hence the domain MMORPG.com. If there's a game that claims to be an "MMO" and decides to go away from the core principles that an MMO should have I can find a better, single player or co-op game with a way better experience because they don't have to accommodate thousands of people at one time. Imagine that, someone who doesn't agree with you actually plays other games. What a concept. I get better graphics, better story (because in MY game, no one else has brought Guard X his 10 bear meat that he claims he needs before he starves) no Alienware / WoW is the first MMO spam in my chat, no one coming up and stealing my mobs, etc. When I want the experience of an MMO, I expect to get an MMO. Not some watered down single player experience with a chat channel.

That's why we have labels for things. You don't expect to rent an action film with the expectations of renting a comedy do you? Buy a compact car and expect the towing capabilites of a truck? Order a steak bagel sandwich from McDonald's and expect prime rib from a 5 star restaurant?

This will be my only reply to you by the way, because I know you are cut from the same mold that Nariu is.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

12/16/12 1:25:01 AM#22

This point isn't really worth arguing anymore. It is rather evident that a majority disagrees with the minority that believe MMO does not have to be massive. The same minority is also saying that themeparks and f2p and more instanced stuff is what people want. Yet if you look at recent threads from both new users and old ones returning, they all show disdain for the current crop of MMO's out there. Furthermore, developers, who react to trends, are also starting to move away from the copy/paste market.

Seriously, if you take a look, its only a handful of people arguing about semantics. We are going to have to accept that there are people who want to talk about regular multiplayer games on here. Who knows if they are trolling or truly believe what they say. Point is it isn't worth it.

Instead of arguing what an MMO is and isn't, perhaps we just need to keep reporting the non MMO threads as they come in so they can be moved to the general gaming forum? I say make your point and move on. Last thing we need is a bunch of people who actually know what an MMO is, and come here to discuss a true MMO, to be banned as a result of arguing with those who don't care for the genre.

 

And in regards to what number massive should be, I think it kind of goes with the flow of where we are at in the genre. What was once massive in 1998 it kind of mediocre now as technology has moved so far forward. EvE, while having a massive of people online in one single world online, isn't necessarily the staple point of what an MMO should be number wise. You can't really do that same thing with WoW due to its limitations (game world size and what not). Yet, WoW is absolutely an MMO. Where as we all know LoL is not.

 

As for the original topic, it is not logical to take one site, two sites, or even a dozen sites that make such a claim and imply that the industry is making the change as a whole. If we were to jump to conclusions like that, tablets would be called slates (or some of the many others used when they were coming out). Of course we know they are not though. 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7520

12/16/12 1:33:51 AM#23

MMO = Lots of people playing at once.

MMORPG = Persistant worlds with character progression.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

 
OP  12/16/12 2:10:12 AM#24
Originally posted by Kyleran

@OP - Stop, please.  We've told you the difference between old school MMORPG's vs the broad term MMO, which of course encompasses a much broader category of game definintions.

Don't you have some really fun, actiony MMO to go play, instead of wasting time posting here on the forums?

Me? I play EVE, so I have an excuse to post while playing (plenty of relaxing downtime, you know)  

Of course ... i actually didn't post much today .. because i am playing D3 and PS2. I mostlyl post during weekdays in between my analysis.

And that is the point .. "old school MMORPG" is no longer the only definition of MMO. The genre change. In fact, the newzoo site is just more systematic about it. Many MMORPG site covers this expanded list of game.

LOL, WOT are on this site.

WOT is on the feature game list on massively.

GW1 & DDO are covered on all of these sites too.

Are these not facts?

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

12/16/12 2:26:32 AM#25
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran

@OP - Stop, please.  We've told you the difference between old school MMORPG's vs the broad term MMO, which of course encompasses a much broader category of game definintions.

Don't you have some really fun, actiony MMO to go play, instead of wasting time posting here on the forums?

Me? I play EVE, so I have an excuse to post while playing (plenty of relaxing downtime, you know)  

Of course ... i actually didn't post much today .. because i am playing D3 and PS2. I mostlyl post during weekdays in between my analysis.

And that is the point .. "old school MMORPG" is no longer the only definition of MMO. The genre change. In fact, the newzoo site is just more systematic about it. Many MMORPG site covers this expanded list of game.

LOL, WOT are on this site.

WOT is on the feature game list on massively.

GW1 & DDO are covered on all of these sites too.

Are these not facts?

They are covered here due to common interest. People misconstrue that to think they are classified as mmos as a result. They aren't.

 

And just to add to this...they have their own specific forum and a general forum to discuss them in. 

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

12/16/12 2:43:26 AM#26

Just because they are listed doesnt mean much lol. How do you think the people that run this site get money to keep it running? lol

MMO has a set definition, mmorpg has a set definition. You can try to reason all you want. Most the games you speak of are MMOG, not MMORPG.

Do you know the difference? Because your posts say otherwise.

You need a certain criteria, and most the game you speak of dont have it.

Battle arena for example, your LOL is not a MMO or a MMORPG. Even their main website does not claim its a MMO. Its a game with multiplayer support. You pair off and fight it out. The only thing persistant about this game is the statistics, and thats it. It is in no way or shape compared to a MMORPG, and they do not claim it to be.

Official website for League of Legends. Join millions of players in an award winning Multiplayer Online Battle Arena.

League of Legends is a session-based game. Matchmaking occurs based on the average.

 The game can currently be played in five different modes: Tutorial, Custom, Co-Op vs. AI, Normal and Ranked. Custom mode allows players to manually create custom game sessions that other players can find on a game list and join. Co-op vs. AI is a mode where players are matched either alone or as part of a group against a team of bots.

 

And you are also the one that compares D3, xcom, and several other single player games to mmorpg's and say thats they way new mmo's all should be like. Seems you are confused, and after the past 2 weeks of your attempts, you are still the minority.

 

Only you types of gamers keep coming up with new definitions for MMORPG's and other types of MMO's.

 

OMG 30 PEOPLE CAN GET INTO THIS SERVER........... IT HAS TO BE A MMO

  RoyalPhunk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 181

12/16/12 2:55:39 AM#27

its more wishful posting that anything else. OP posts like this have no basis in actual fact.

Your not going to be able to point at a cat and convince people its a dog.

 

 

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

12/16/12 4:55:43 AM#28

Well, thats what we get, a few years ago the industry looked at console and single player gaming and thought "hey, i want a piece of that".

Now we are stuck with products that are not really appealing for either the mmorpg players or console players, for in most cases opposite reasons, surprisingly, far too much social interaction and progression for console players, far too speedy and meaningless gameplay for the mmorpg crowd.

Add in cutting corners and the industry becoming finally truly corporately inept, and we are well set for another 1k+ flame posts.

The only ones happy are those people who desperately wanted to be #1, but were never really prepared and willing to put any kind of effort in (and i dont mean grind, i mean everything starting from "reading item descriptions").

A dangerous group to focus on.

Flame on!

:)

  ZombieKen

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

12/16/12 5:15:05 AM#29
Originally posted by Banaghran
Now we are stuck with products that are not really appealing for either the mmorpg players or console players, for in most cases opposite reasons, surprisingly, far too much social interaction and progression for console players, far too speedy and meaningless gameplay for the mmorpg crowd.

 

I agree.  For MMOs to grow in market size they had to be changed to appeal to people who didn't like the existing MMOs.

 

It worked somewhat, but in other ways it did not.  Purists on both sides don't like the hybrid, which has confused the crap out of developer / publishers because they pump millions into these games expecting a hit, and it isn't happening.

 

edit:  In thinking about it, I see three sides to the issue:  Console players, MMORPG players, and SPRPG players.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Banquetto

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1033

12/16/12 5:15:33 AM#30


Originally posted by Quizzical
I don't think you can justify saying that n players per instance is not massively multiplayer and n+1 is for any value of n.

Indeed. That's why I use this metric: ask yourself "how many players can play together in one place in this game?"


If the answer is "n" where n is any whole number, whether it be 4 like Diablo 3, 10 like LoL, 32 (I think?) like WoT - then it's not an MMO.


If the answer is "well, I dunno, but once you have x in one place, it lags something fierce, and if you get more than y, the server will probably crash" - then it's an MMO.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 8:44:50 AM#31
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kyleran

@OP - Stop, please.  We've told you the difference between old school MMORPG's vs the broad term MMO, which of course encompasses a much broader category of game definintions.

Don't you have some really fun, actiony MMO to go play, instead of wasting time posting here on the forums?

Me? I play EVE, so I have an excuse to post while playing (plenty of relaxing downtime, you know)  

Of course ... i actually didn't post much today .. because i am playing D3 and PS2. I mostlyl post during weekdays in between my analysis.

And that is the point .. "old school MMORPG" is no longer the only definition of MMO. The genre change. In fact, the newzoo site is just more systematic about it. Many MMORPG site covers this expanded list of game.

LOL, WOT are on this site.

WOT is on the feature game list on massively.

GW1 & DDO are covered on all of these sites too.

Are these not facts?

Ive talked to the massively writers about this. Its all about money. They get far more money covering LoL and Diablo 3 and what not than not covering them. That is the same reason the industry refers to non MMOs as MMOs because its another check box on the feature list and it supposedly justifies high sub prices and later certain free to play costs.

Do you understand that the goal of business is to drag in as much cash as possible and they will do everything possible to achieve that goal?

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13667

12/16/12 9:23:17 AM#32
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by Quizzical
I don't think you can justify saying that n players per instance is not massively multiplayer and n+1 is for any value of n.

 

Indeed. That's why I use this metric: ask yourself "how many players can play together in one place in this game?"


If the answer is "n" where n is any whole number, whether it be 4 like Diablo 3, 10 like LoL, 32 (I think?) like WoT - then it's not an MMO.


If the answer is "well, I dunno, but once you have x in one place, it lags something fierce, and if you get more than y, the server will probably crash" - then it's an MMO.

I could write really bad network code that makes a game crash if you get two people in the same place.  Would that make a game that allows 5 players per instance into an MMO if no one can ever reach that cap?

How about the Mechanized Skirmish zone of Infantry, which allowed 100 players per instance, but spread out over a large map?  I don't know what would happen if you tried to get all 100 on the screen at once, but I suspect that it wouldn't end well.

  Apraxis

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

12/16/12 9:29:13 AM#33
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Some here think MMO is only about persistent world games. Well, obviously the industry disagree.

http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

In particular, in this industry analytics firm, which publishes MMO market report as early as 2009. Their reports are used in many gaming site articles. They classify MMO into the following types:

RTS

RPG

Resource Management

Battle Arena

Shooter

Action/Fighting/Adventure

Sport,

and with settings like: Fantasy, Sci-fi, Realism, Anime, Horror, and History.

And they count LOL, and WOT (i guess in the battle arena category). This clearly shows the trend in the industry is expanding, and evolve into more variety. The old way of thinking about MMOs as games only like UO and EQ is a thing of the past.

 

It is nothing wrong with it. The term MMO have not said a lot since a few years. Multiplayer is the way to go, and you can argue about what is massive as long as you want. It will divergence to a lot more subgenres.

But of course historically MMORPGs were meant to be persistent worlds and virtual worlds.. but we didnt have a lot of virtual worlds the last few years. But who the fuck cares about a abbreviation. Although for the sake of discussion it would be nice to have a few more precise abbreviations.. because i personally dont care to talk about lobby games.

  Ortwig

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1067

12/16/12 9:33:19 AM#34
Why do we care about the definition of an MMO?  My guess is so that people can hit others over the head with it in forums.
  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 9:41:54 AM#35
Originally posted by Ortwig
Why do we care about the definition of an MMO?  My guess is so that people can hit others over the head with it in forums.

Or maybe we care about precision of terminology because we want to make sure we are all on the same page.

How many discussions on this site would be totally unnecessary if we had precise language?

Diablo 3 is a multiplayer coop lobby based game. EvE is a single persistant dynamic world based game.

Bam 90% of the threads on this site suddenly become irrelevant. Instead its all carried under the originally quite precise but currently entirely meaningless umbrella term MMO.

Its my suggestion that MMORPG.com added certain games to this site not only because their popularity drives page hits and activity but because lumping them all under the MMO umbrella generates a massive amount of discussion which makes the site seem more popular to advertisers and which increases clickthrough on adds by providing the ability to post vastly more controversial threads which means players are refreshing and rechecking dozens more threads that they posted in due to the intense split between the various mmo camps than would otherwise be the case.

Hell if I were running a website with flagging popularity and were primarily interested in financial gains its certainly one of many strategies I would employ to raise revenue.

If they didn't think of that idea it shows how lacking their business skills are. All the major game companies purposely spark controversy for business purposes as has been covered in threads and articles on this very site.

  Indol

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 192

12/16/12 10:13:41 AM#36

There's a reason the term Massively Online Multiplayer was coined to describe games that are played online with hundreds or thousands of people simultaneously versus Online Multiplayer games that only allow single or double digit #'s of players to play at one time: The experiences are drastically different.

 

If League of Legends can be described as an MMO, then MMO means nothing.

 

I guess we can now safely call sushi Italian food guys.

 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/16/12 10:17:47 AM#37
Originally posted by Indol

There's a reason the term Massively Online Multiplayer was coined to describe games that are played online with hundreds or thousands of people simultaneously versus Online Multiplayer games that only allow single or double digit #'s of players to play at one time: The experiences are drastically different.

 

If League of Legends can be described as an MMO, then MMO means nothing.

 

I guess we can now safely call sushi Italian food guys.

 

All food eaten in a public place is now Greek food actually. Get your definitions right!

  Sukiyaki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 1336

12/16/12 10:22:54 AM#38

Its kinda ironical how the OP is bending the definition of "the industry".

Newzoo isnt "the industry"

A handful of redacteurs and random gamer falling for newzoo's poorly fudged charts reciting them are not "the industry" either.

Neither is the OP, no matter how much posts made about the same matter.

Nor do (only anyways popular) non-mmo ad's and dedicated sections on MMO sites, desperate for ad revenue, make a statement in the name of "the industry" about MMOs

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/16/12 10:28:26 AM#39


Originally posted by Cuathon
Quizz, the real indicator of mmo status is massively multiplayer. How many people does your activity affect? LoL is not an MMO because the actions in one game do not change the experience of players within the whole game. EvE is an MMO because the actions of any given player permanently alter the experience of many other players.

MMO is the new ironically, or the new literally. Does the rampant misuse of ironic in popular culture change the meaning? I would say no. Therefore the same applies to MMO.

Unfortunately the people who make sense are vastly outnumbered by the plebs so we can't assume that anything means what it meant 10 minutes ago much less 10 years ago.




The original definition of MMO depended on a persistent, shared world. This allowed for a massive amount of interaction. Player 0 could do something in the world that Player 1,000 could see and that Player 10,000 could see, even though there were limited slots on the server and all the zones were instanced, etc. It wasn't how many players were on and interacting at any given time, it would was how many interactions were happening over a long period of time because the world was persistent.

If you drop the persistent, shared world requirement (which the industry seems to be doing), you can still have a massive amount of interaction. Player 0 can interact with Player 1,000 in LoL. They can also interaction with Player 2 and Player 10,000. It allows for a massive amount of interaction. The only thing that's been dropped as a requirement is the persistent, shared world. It has nothing to do with the number of people and nothing to do with making a permanent, sandbox style change to the world. Players can interact through an Auction House and it's still an interaction. Players can send each other mail and it's an interaction.

Definitions exist for things that are inherently what they are, and then there are definitions of ideas. A rose is what it is. You can change the definition, but then you're no longer describing a rose. "MMO" is an idea. It was made up from scratch and doesn't exist outside of human experience. It makes just as much sense for the definition of "MMO" to be one thing as it does for it to be another thing because they are all just concepts.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/16/12 10:31:42 AM#40
Originally posted by Aelious
This OP is a copy and paste of a previous post of yours in one of ten threads this week on the subject.

Are you picking fights?

At least getting practiced with one approach :P

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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