Personally i think fun is paramount. Realism, at most, only add some atmosphere.

So the design should ALWAYS start from a gameplay experince point of view. If possible, add some realism for atmostphere, but never start from being real.

Games are NOT about being real. Nothing is real. We can't throw fireballs, we can't run on walls, we can't teleport. It is about fulfilling those fantasies of being powerful, killing monsters, finishing dangerous missions.

So anything that can make the game experience better is a good thing in my book: LFD, LFR, cross realm grouping, fun combat, instances.

Don't ask me to wait 20 min becuase it is real. Donn't ask me to talk to 20 people before i can make a trade because it is real like that in the 5th century.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Personally i think fun is paramount. Realism, at most, only add some atmosphere.

So the design should ALWAYS start from a gameplay experince point of view. If possible, add some realism for atmostphere, but never start from being real.

Games are NOT about being real. Nothing is real. We can't throw fireballs, we can't run on walls, we can't teleport. It is about fulfilling those fantasies of being powerful, killing monsters, finishing dangerous missions.

So anything that can make the game experience better is a good thing in my book: LFD, LFR, cross realm grouping, fun combat, instances.

Don't ask me to wait 20 min becuase it is real. Donn't ask me to talk to 20 people before i can make a trade because it is real like that in the 5th century.

Generally speaking, these things run contrary to the concept of more realistic virtual worlds, and tend to make them less so.

Arguably they make the game more fun for some people, perhaps many, but there's no denying they decrease the level of realism or how much a title might better simulate a virtual world.

Of course these games are all not real, but there can be varying levels of realism depending on the specific game mechanics.

Making you travel 20 minutes for no reason makes no sense of course, but if by doing so permits other players the opportunity to ambush you and take your stuff, then perhaps it is a viable mechanic. (and of course, you have the opportunity/responsbility to counter their efforts to do so) 

Originally posted by DMKano

The more realism the better...

can you imagine having you main tank die of a heart attack during a final dungeon raid boss fight?

or hearing that your character can't raid anymore because he got Alzheimer's.

 

epic

Wouldn't realism result in the tank unable to hold the bosses attention for hours with a simple neenerneener?

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Personally i think fun is paramount. Realism, at most, only add some atmosphere.

So the design should ALWAYS start from a gameplay experince point of view. If possible, add some realism for atmostphere, but never start from being real.

Games are NOT about being real. Nothing is real. We can't throw fireballs, we can't run on walls, we can't teleport. It is about fulfilling those fantasies of being powerful, killing monsters, finishing dangerous missions.

So anything that can make the game experience better is a good thing in my book: LFD, LFR, cross realm grouping, fun combat, instances.

Don't ask me to wait 20 min becuase it is real. Donn't ask me to talk to 20 people before i can make a trade because it is real like that in the 5th century.

Generally speaking, these things run contrary to the concept of more realistic virtual worlds, and tend to make them less so.

Yes. And i state very clearly that i don't care for "realistic" virtual worlds, if it is not a fun game.

Arguably they make the game more fun for some people, perhaps many, but there's no denying they decrease the level of realism or how much a title might better simulate a virtual world.

Preciesly. I am one of that many. And once again, no one is arguing they don't decrease realism. Just that i don't care for realism.

Of course these games are all not real, but there can be varying levels of realism depending on the specific game mechanics.

"can" != "should"

Making you travel 20 minutes for no reason makes no sense of course, but if by doing so permits other players the opportunity to ambush you and take your stuff, then perhaps it is a viable mechanic. (and of course, you have the opportunity/responsbility to counter their efforts to do so) 

NOt care for that kind of gameplay. In fact,

1) open world pvp is not popular.

2) even with open world pvp, a boat ride of 20 min (like that in EQ) has no gameplay except staring at the screen.

3) That is just an example. Don't put non-fun gameplay in my GAME just because it sounds real.

 

 

 

as the OP alludes to 'realism' in an mmo is a difficult subject. i believe personally that there is a direct inverse relation between realism (as in imitates the actual world) and playability + enjoyability. in other words the more realistic you get the less fun and the less playable a game becomes.

what is needed is a means of imitating the root experiences that help immerse us in a world of any kind. flying clockwork dragons are not a problem if the participant is given the opportunity or tools to become immersed.

there is really only one rule for fictional universes wether you are discussing scifi or fantasy. and that is the rule of consistency. is this fictional world self referentially consistent at every turn?

when speaking of a gaming universe i would add what i said above about root experiences. perhaps the word archetype is being enlarged a bit in its definition when i say that certain archetypal experiences are encountered by human beings across both space and time. what are they and how would one go about including them in a virtual world, is the question.

finally, and i believe this is something oft overlooked, there is a devil in the details. there is something at work in the small things we experience in virtual worlds that make it somehow feel more complete. these small details pack a power disproportianate to their size. which can make them incredibly useful and potentially easy to create and weave into our experiences in virtual worlds of all kinds.

Originally posted by itchmon

that's an awesome question Kyleran.

made me think.  on forums!  I KNOW RIGHT?

I love the games that i perceive as being more "worldlike" than "gamelike"... i dont think i ever really sat down to quantify what traits make up "worldlike" to me soooo without further adieu..

1) there needs to be an open path to move through the world.   this as opposed to the "themepark" style of unveiling the game world a little bit at a time through channeling the players from hub to hub.  EX: eve online ... after those first tutorial missions the game basically says, hey, its a big world out there.  here are the ways you can find what you need but we arent going to lay out a path to guide you.

2) there needs to be freedom of action however there also needs to be consequences for "sociopathic" actions.  this one is a killer for me.  again let me reference eve.  in eve you have the freedom to be a horrific murderer of innocent miners.  it's a world like game after all an just as in the "real world" nothing is *physically* going to stop someone from being violent towards someone else.  HOWEVER since, again, eve is world-like, there are in game police who monitor the space lanes of eve and issue security hits (and sometimes summary execution) for acts of rampant douchery.  this punishment is part of what keeps eve from degenerating into a nothing-but-pvp fest.

3) i'm going to use eq2 for this example.  you need to be able to have a place to call your own.  note i didnt expressly say housing because in games like eve you can have soverignty with your alliance in a few systems which is kinda-sorta like having a place of your own.  but to me the classic example of this is eq2 (SWG and vanguard too i hear but i didnt really play those).  Eq2 is very good at letting you have a good load of tools to design your own space and then keep it as private or as public as you wish.  especially now where you are allowed to design your own piece of ornamental fun and submit it to eq2 and even have them put it in the cash shop to make a wee bit of royalty off of your idea ^^.

4) there should be freedom of opportunity.  by this i mean that, should you want to do nothing but make stuff that should be fine.  but if if you want to be a jack-of-all trades that's fine too.  there should be activities in the world-like game that make it so you dont feel like you "have to" do one thing or another at the "end-game".  as a matter of fact...

5) there should NOT be a percievable "wall" between the character building phase of the game and the "endgame".

thanks for reading!

itch

Thank you for writing that itch.  That describes a lot of what I enjoy in a gaming world.  I don't want realism, like the Excalibur, example above.  I want immersion and engagement.

I'm looking for well thought out, integrated, deep engaging systems that add a life-like quality to the game world.  Unrealistic combat is fine by me.  I enjoy movies, stories, and books with exciting battles like Lord of the Rings, Couching Tiger, Avatar the Last Airbender (animated), but what else makes those stories come alive for me is the environment.

I'm also looking for that system to offer "non-stabby" content, or to expand on point 4, the freedom of opportunity should include valid character building that doesn't focus solely on genocide.  That should also mean that someone could adventure as a warrior type (I mean that in the loosest possible sense - some who battles) and as a merchant and as an explorer and as a diplomat, or focus on any of those (or others).

While all of the points made are important, the fifth point, is one I think should be foundational.  You can't build the rest of the house if the foundation is weak.  If the game rockets the player to cap and then there is a completely different game to play at that point, it just breaks any sense of cohesion that has been established.

I want ultra-realism in my MMO.

I want requirement on food and water. I want clothing sizes on armors. I want sleep. I want fatigue. I want desease. I want ...

You get the idea.

Ofcourse, an MMO like that would probbaly fail because of ADD mentality of the 99% of the gamers.

@chelan - Love your avatar. Great show.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Personally i think fun is paramount. Realism, at most, only add some atmosphere.

So the design should ALWAYS start from a gameplay experince point of view. If possible, add some realism for atmostphere, but never start from being real.

Games are NOT about being real. Nothing is real. We can't throw fireballs, we can't run on walls, we can't teleport. It is about fulfilling those fantasies of being powerful, killing monsters, finishing dangerous missions.

So anything that can make the game experience better is a good thing in my book: LFD, LFR, cross realm grouping, fun combat, instances.

Don't ask me to wait 20 min becuase it is real. Donn't ask me to talk to 20 people before i can make a trade because it is real like that in the 5th century.

Generally speaking, these things run contrary to the concept of more realistic virtual worlds, and tend to make them less so.

Yes. And i state very clearly that i don't care for "realistic" virtual worlds, if it is not a fun game.

K> My OP was about what mechanics make a MMORPG more realistic for you, not whether or not you cared for realism in your games.

Arguably they make the game more fun for some people, perhaps many, but there's no denying they decrease the level of realism or how much a title might better simulate a virtual world.

Preciesly. I am one of that many. And once again, no one is arguing they don't decrease realism. Just that i don't care for realism. K> Again, what you care for wasn't the point of the OP, but more about what level of realism you expect to make them realistic.

Of course these games are all not real, but there can be varying levels of realism depending on the specific game mechanics.

"can" != "should" K> If the premise is to make a more realistic world, then should increasingly factors in to the design.

Making you travel 20 minutes for no reason makes no sense of course, but if by doing so permits other players the opportunity to ambush you and take your stuff, then perhaps it is a viable mechanic. (and of course, you have the opportunity/responsbility to counter their efforts to do so) 

NOt care for that kind of gameplay. In fact,

1) open world pvp is not popular. K> Not the topic of this thread, but merely a convenient example of why it might be useful, I could have come up with others.

2) even with open world pvp, a boat ride of 20 min (like that in EQ) has no gameplay except staring at the screen. K> Oh no, it offers you a chance to socialize with your fellow boatmates, even WOW had this at launch and I actually had quite a few conversations with people while on the boat...and got ganked by horde on occasion as well.  Some folks feel socialization qualities as part of the game play, but I realize you don't.

3) That is just an example. Don't put non-fun gameplay in my GAME just because it sounds real. K> We weren't really talking about your games, we were talking about more realistic virtual world MMORPG's.  But feel free to start your own thread on the topic.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by birdycephon

I want ultra-realism in my MMO.

I want requirement on food and water. I want clothing sizes on armors. I want sleep. I want fatigue. I want desease. I want ...

You get the idea.

Ofcourse, an MMO like that would probbaly fail because of ADD mentality of the 99% of the gamers.

 

@chelan - Love your avatar. Great show.

and of course u want 1 time died always dead and u cant play the game never egain with that account

Originally posted by Kyleran

3) That is just an example. Don't put non-fun gameplay in my GAME just because it sounds real. K> We weren't really talking about your games, we were talking about more realistic virtual world MMORPG's.  But feel free to start your own thread on the topic.

 

 

 

 

 

We are talking about the question "How much realism do you want" .. the answer is "none if it interfere with my fun".

Originally posted by Kyleran

We see a lot of threads and posts decrying the loss of "virtual worlds" and I'm certainly one of the guilty parties in this regards, but I got to thinking, just what makes a MMORPG more realistic yet at the same time remain fun?

For example, I favor mechanics such as local markets as opposed to global ones, but I don't mind having auction houses while others probably prefer players run the stores or trade themselves.

I liked it better when MMORPG's used food/drink to restore health and stamina (and somewhat influence the pacing of the gameplay), but I wouldn't want to have to eat or drink regularly to avoid starving to death as was the case in Xyson. (or Ultima VI for those who remember that one)

Travel times....mixed feelings about this.  They sort of work at a strategic level in games like EVE, where you basically have to provide a means for players to intercept each other and have them part of the strategic equation when chosing combat/logistics option. 

But that doesn't mean I didn't love Blessed Teleport Scrolls in my first MMORPG Lineage 1 where a player could set up to 30 waypoints in the game and use these scrolls to instantly teleport to them.  (You had to walk to the area the first time to expose the map however).

They weren't free, in fact, a fair share of every players game income/time was spent either farming or buying BTS's.  I got rich selling them as I farmed them with my Bugbear Mage in the ant caves.

And lets face it, I would not care for a MMORPG that made my avatar have to "relieve" himself on a regular basis, sometimes there's just such a thing as too much realism.

So that's the question, what sorts of mechanics do you prefer that makes one MMORPG more of a virtual world than another?

 

 Limits on carrying items due to size and weight.   We carry too much in these games. 

Add in wagons and ships for higher capacity/weight shipment.

local markets.

Changes quests:  Have jobs, tasks, bounties (kill rats for cash), missions, etc as appropriate to the organization/group presenting them. 

Add mysteries, which are QUESTIONS, rather than quests, which can be answered.  You might find bits and pieces of information spread all over the world in books, painting, receipts and such.

Originally posted by waynejr2

 

 Limits on carrying items due to size and weight.   We carry too much in these games. 

If you go by REAL weight and size, no one can carry more than 1 or 2 weapons. It won't be very fun to go to town to sell every 2 min, or you want to do away with loot?

Realism != more fun.

Add in wagons and ships for higher capacity/weight shipment.

Really? What is next . you need to play a sailor and pull on ropes all day?

local markets.

Inefficient. It has been tried. AH took over. That tells you something. And AH is pretty real. Look at ebay, and NYSE.

Changes quests:  Have jobs, tasks, bounties (kill rats for cash), missions, etc as appropriate to the organization/group presenting them. 

Quests are just excuse to kill stuff. Dress it up a bit but don't detract from combat fun.

Add mysteries, which are QUESTIONS, rather than quests, which can be answered.  You might find bits and pieces of information spread all over the world in books, painting, receipts and such.

 Now this is a new idea. May be playing CLUE in a MMO is fun for some people.

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Don't waste time arguing with Narius.

We all know what Narius likes as he tells us in every thread ever. He never changes his mind. If he posts one and basically says:

I'm Narius

Then we all know exactly what that means and that its not going to change.

This derails every thread that ever has any relation to anything but a themepark and he insists on posting in all of them.

I won't make another post about this, but I feel like you should know better by now, you've been here at least as long as I have.

Originally posted by Rossboss
The only realism I want to recognize in any MMORPG is the players being real people. I don't want to have to care about feeding a pet, mount, myself unless it is for unrealistic ideas or purposes like gaining health/mana/happiness. I want to be able to carry 50 weapons on me into combat just because I forgot to dump them in my massively large vault. Teleportation is a must, I don't have time to watch the scenery go by as I fly around. I want to be able to have a quiver filled with over 100 arrows in it and be able to jump around like a rabbit constantly. I want to have a choice for PvP interaction. Selling things on a marketplace or auction house should be universal marketing. Whispering people in different areas and continents is a must.

This ....

There is a reason why these are more or less standard features in games. And that it adds to the fun.

Do you really want to carry only 15 arrows, and worry about ammunition all the time?

Originally posted by Cuathon

This derails every thread that ever has any relation to anything but a themepark and he insists on posting in all of them.

 

By "derail" you mean providing a different perspsective, and not blindly worship the old, and repeated endlessly "i want a virtual world sandbox" rant here?

I am more than glad to oblige. Diversity and different perspectives is a beautiful thing.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Rossboss
The only realism I want to recognize in any MMORPG is the players being real people. I don't want to have to care about feeding a pet, mount, myself unless it is for unrealistic ideas or purposes like gaining health/mana/happiness. I want to be able to carry 50 weapons on me into combat just because I forgot to dump them in my massively large vault. Teleportation is a must, I don't have time to watch the scenery go by as I fly around. I want to be able to have a quiver filled with over 100 arrows in it and be able to jump around like a rabbit constantly. I want to have a choice for PvP interaction. Selling things on a marketplace or auction house should be universal marketing. Whispering people in different areas and continents is a must.

This ....

There is a reason why these are more or less standard features in games. And that it adds to the fun.

Do you really want to carry only 15 arrows, and worry about ammunition all the time?

Oh I forgot to mention a few more things. I want my resource pool/health to automatically regenerate when I'm not in combat. Every NPC enemy needs to be short sighted as much as I am (5 ft before things become a blur) and give up on chasing me after a set distance. Bosses will be stronger than their thug subordinates. Instanced areas should reset either immediately or within a set amount of time less than a month. I should be allowed to move in mid air and shoot my heatseeking magic at things. Visual Effects should be something that I can recognize but nothing that you would see in real life.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cuathon

This derails every thread that ever has any relation to anything but a themepark and he insists on posting in all of them.

 

By "derail" you mean providing a different perspsective, and not blindly worship the old, and repeated endlessly "i want a virtual world sandbox" rant here?

I am more than glad to oblige. Diversity and different perspectives is a beautiful thing.

I mean forcing the thread into the same boring argument over and over and never offering anything new to discuss.

Do you honestly think that given the games that are produced by the industry that it is necessary to defend a point of view that is already so powerful that it controls all game production?

Your perspective is not DIFFERENT. Its the dominant perspective in the whole entire industry post WoW and everyone here is perfectly aware of your position and has been aware of it each of the previous 40 times you derailed a thread.

You always act like you are the last bastion of defense for an oppressed minority perspective when that is a 180 from the actual reality of the world.

How many stalwart defenders do themepark games need when every major MMO for the past 8-9 YEARS has been a themepark?

Maybe if you at least had a new argument or two in each thread it wouldn't be borderline trolling but you dont.

"I care about fun."

"I only care about fun."

"The most important thing is fun."

Okay we get it, you like to have fun. Stop repeating it over and over.

"The things I find fun don't involve realism."

"I don't care about realism."

"WoW is not realistic but its really fun."

Okay we get it, you don't care about realism. Stop repeating it over and over.

Do you understand the point or should I borrow your strategy of repeating the same thing over and over ad nauseum because its the only thing you understand.

As I said before your position has no need of being defended. The whole industry is devoted to Narius approved video games. Do you still need to repeat your opinion? Make a thread and just quadruple post "I only care about fun" over and over. Problem solved.

Its not necessary to post dozens of identical posts in every single thread that expresses an opinion that you disagree with.

And your point is dumb anyways. We all care about fun. We just disagree on what is fun. No one is sitting around saying "What game design would be the most annoying frustrating least fun experience ever and how can I force Narius Seldon to play it?"

I promise. No one does that.

"Realism" is such a funny word.  I feel like it's become shorthand for discussion of a particular set of features / interactions, a reactionary desire to return to something that has been widely changed ... but are any of those features really any more "real"? 

Do our early experiences with an MMO create a default "reality" in our imginations and everything that we later encounter feels like some distortion of that?  I'm curious whether young gamers starting out from a different initial game experience form a very different default notion of what is "real" in a game.

Originally posted by defector1968

Originally posted by birdycephon

I want ultra-realism in my MMO.

I want requirement on food and water. I want clothing sizes on armors. I want sleep. I want fatigue. I want desease. I want ...

You get the idea.

Ofcourse, an MMO like that would probbaly fail because of ADD mentality of the 99% of the gamers.

 

@chelan - Love your avatar. Great show.

and of course u want 1 time died always dead and u cant play the game never egain with that account

No, just have to re-roll the character.

Btw, your grammar is terrible.