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12/16/12 1:18:54 AM#81
Originally posted by madazz In today's world, games such as Pong / Tetris / Pacman would be your 'casual' games. How many people do you think played those and are now involved in the gaming industry? (hint: lots and lots).
It is like saying 'simple games are easy' which is just mind-blowingly false. Chess / Tetris has simplistics game mechanics but I'd challenge anyone to say chess / tetris is easy.
We are kinda moving away from the original topic so I'll end my derail here and go back in topic. MMOs are no longer 'worlds' cause there is little $$$ incentive to do so. Whether you like that fact or not is irrelevent. Free-market is working as intended.
Wonder why there seems to be more haters on the internet? Read this by an actual marketing guy to find out why. |
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12/16/12 1:25:41 AM#82
Originally posted by Cuathon Actually i have quite a bit of admiration for you who would put your time and career on the line for this. Personallyl i wouldn't. When i was in high school, i did program some games on my Apple 2+. The programming was fun .. but the games weren't .. not because it is of a design i don't like, but because i know it in and out, and there is no surprise ... no element of awe .. everything was very much known. At the same time, i find you condenscending to call a segment of the gamers "dumb". You really think you are better than them? Do you really think everyone wants to spend their intellectual in wasting time? How do you feel when other think you spend your career in making "time waster"? Sure, playing a tower defense game on an iOS cost less time and focus than trying figure out D&D rules and optimize a character. But they are just entertainment. I really think that people here obsess too much and think that those who can raid or fight a battle in a mmorp GAME is a real achievement, and that they are better than those who want to waste 5 min on angry birds. In this logic, are those who spend their free time reading Shakespeare and write essays about it better than MMORPG players who "just kill stuff in a make-belief world"? Are those who watch indie movies better than those who like super heroes ones? If you start to get epleen by congradulating oneself about what games you play, where do you think MMORPGs fall in the grand totem pole of entertainment between appreciating fine arts, to watching survivors on tv? |
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12/16/12 1:37:26 AM#83
Originally posted by jpnz I didn't say casual/simple games are easy. I'd also guess that most or the majority of developers now a days are around my age and thus grew up with the likes of nes and not pong. I can also think of a reason why developers would call casual gamers dumb, though idont support the argument really. That would be that they can keep making the same simple game over and over again in different skins and sell it. Look at all the match 3 games. One could start using that argument for some mmo gamers now a days too,and I feel only a select group are actually dumb. |
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12/16/12 1:41:38 AM#84
Originally posted by nariusseldon I made my own stuff too. I tried to copy the BBS game LORD. It was fun, but that element of discovering a new game was missing as I knew it in and out. Oh well |
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12/16/12 2:32:55 AM#85
Originally posted by nariusseldon the whole idea that smart people need intelectually challenging games suggest a lack of knowledge about people and the world in general. Not everyone seeks games for the same reason. I get challenged in my everyday life, i dont need to be challenged in games because i seek them for relaxation and sometimes even to go on autopilot mode( i cant tell you how many times in the trance i get into when playing some games i find solutions to problems i had a hard time dealing with in my stressed life). I seriously think that some people take games too seriously, they are just entertainment. To remain on topic though, i would like a world, the thing is though,would i have the time to play it? My life is so hectic and full of comitments i dont think i would have the time to dedicate to a world. I actually think thats the real problem. The gaming generation has grown up and even the most hardcore players have had to turn casual because of real life responsibilities, leaving time to only pick up themepark games like guild wars, LoL and WoW. |
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12/16/12 3:01:43 AM#86
Apparently some of you doesn't understand what a "world" in an MMORPG really mean. To create an MMORPG world you need a collection of major key-elements that otherwise would turn your so-called "world" into a small-park or even wrose a Lobby-Based multiplayer game.
1. Eliminate or greatly reduce instant travels between points that are virtually too far from each other. Otherwise, you destroy the very basic of being in a world which is the realization of distance. If something is 1,000 miles away from you (virtually) but also one click-away from you at the same time; guess what? it's actually simply just one click-away from you that illusion of 1,000 miles is no longer applicable because thanks to instant-travel now the distance is completely destroyed.
2. Freedom. If you hand-hold/spoon-feed the "content" of your "world" to your player then why bother creating a world in the first place? the whole point of being in a world is exploration, mystery, freedom to travel. Stop hand-holding your players (directly or indirectly) and let them be. If you design your "content" where the player is always directed towards it with neon signs (whether through questing or by creating virtual zones designed for specific phase) then you're not in a "world" are you? you're simply a tourist in a tourist-attraction site.
3. Inconvenience. If everything is easy, trivial and convenient to the player then there's no point in creating a world. If death doesn't matter, for instance, then the whole concept of being in a world doesn't matter also.
4. Resources, factions, cities and landscapes of various properties. If everything in the world is a collection of monsters made conveniently for you to slaughter for X Experience Points then you're really not in a world but just in a game, like Mario. There needs to be places for Farming, Resource Gathering, Dungeons, Cities, Mansions, Outposts, Wilderness, Caves, Housing...etc. If the whole world is just for combat, for instance, you're in a game... not a world.
5. Lore, wthout lore you got no world. Without ruins, secrets, factions, languages, cities, population that make sense then you're really not in a world. Again, you're just in hack 'n' slash game where things don't really need to make sense. You need depth, you need Lore (not STORIES, but simply Lore) for the players to discover and learn about.
These are just 5 point of what I personally think makes a World. If you believe most of these MMORPGs recently released are "worlds" simply because you can travel in an area infested with creatures then I guess you don't quite understand what we mean.
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12/16/12 4:06:55 AM#87
Dunno, i always say that players blaming each other instead of the devs for a games flaw was the greatest achievment of wow. As far as some poeple talking about devs here and how they are which generation and whatnot, i think the biggest problem in that area is that they KNOW what is entertaining, but they fail to understand WHY, they have grown up with entertaining games, enjoyed them, but never questioned themselves WHY, and you need that. Because if you dont have it, you will end up as uncle Jay "lets shower players with yellows, that will be fun!" Wilson (and i DARE you to go there :) ). Flame on! :) |
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12/16/12 5:01:00 AM#88
Devs don't make the final decision, executives do. Themeparks have their good points, but when you argue that less (world) is more I find it hard to understand where you are coming from. An open world takes a lot of work, it is much easier to code a tunnel. That brings us on to the tricky bit, how much would you be happy to loose in graphics quality for a bigger world? |
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Cuathon
Advanced Member
Joined: 10/24/04
Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us. |
12/16/12 7:51:13 AM#89
Originally posted by lizardbones I know what the IQ spread is. Remember that I said take one AAA MMO and make 5-6 niche games. Even with SWTOR as the budget reference that is more like 20-40 million dollars a pop. But then its actually less for some if not all of the reasons I listed. ATITD doesn't really have a win condition, unless you all want to be the prophet or w/e its called. But EvE does require a high intelligence to dominate at. Unless you utilize the brains of other people who posted guides to the game. Again as I said intelligent people are constantly screwing themselves out of an advantage. |
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Cuathon
Advanced Member
Joined: 10/24/04
Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us. |
12/16/12 7:57:00 AM#90
Originally posted by jpnz Bobby Kotick thinks that all gamers are dumb. He says it constantly. He is always talking about how easy it is to screw the gaming masses out of their money. But that's really another argument. How many people do you know personally who make games? And how many of them are in games to make money and support their family? Said people tend to like casual games because they are cheap to make and have high returns compared to something like an RTS which is immensely difficult to make from scratch with a small team of people. |
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12/16/12 8:09:49 AM#91
Just to put the whole "intelligence" thing into perspective (for me), I know at least one very intelligent person (160 IQ) who played Farmville for a very long time and enjoyed it. They weren't necessarily successful, but they didn't fail either. I also know, as I stated earlier, some fairly dumb people who are really good at RTS and MMOs. Whatever the standard of excellence is in each of those games, they've achieved it. I haven't had their IQs measured (because that would be weird), but they are, at best, average. I have an above average IQ (smarter than 99.6% or 99.8% of the entire planet if you want to work out my IQ for bonus points) and I've enjoyed Bejeweled and played it while waiting for things to happen in WoW, and have achieved mediocre success in every game I've played. I'm good, but not great. Join the League For Gamers. |
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Cuathon
Advanced Member
Joined: 10/24/04
Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us. |
12/16/12 8:19:09 AM#92
Originally posted by nariusseldon What is this constant obsession with smartness being construed as superiority? I explained this already in a giant post and I'm not doing it again. Being smarter doesn't make you better. It makes you smarter. And honestly people who are athletes and people who are attractive and people with certain socials kills have loudly proclaimed their superiorty to myself and many of the people I associate with so from a psychological standpoint it would make sense for me to assert my own superiority on the axis of comparison upon which I stand far above the vast majority of the population. I do not in fact do so but it would be a totally normal strategy for coping with social abuse including but not limited to various kinds of bullying. However I am merely being factual and I do not assert any objective superiority. Its interesting to me that as a smart person/nerd and thus a social minority I would be held to a higher standard of behavior than the majority group which attempts to oppress me through physical and emotional violence. This suggests to me that the people from whom this sentiment originates, lately yourself and loktofeit, do not very nearly as far from the social norm and thus possess one form or other of social privilege which allows them to ignore this intense cognitive dissonance.
I note that in your comparison you selected comparisons which contain decisions which would be considered by a capitalist and thus production oriented society and frivolous and worthless. Its somewhat ironic that by a selecting from that set of examples that you asserted, intentionally or not, your own superiority over those people. Whether someone uses their intellectual capacity to study Shakespeare or to be an engineer has no bearing on their intelligence but simply on their preference and we are talking about intelligence and productive capacity for society. Is the outcome of football games really as valuable as the billions of dollars associated with it? Money which far outweighs the amount spent on not only the entirety of many city governments but also that of many states? Football and other sports have long been regarded as very important to society to the extent that many colleges care more about football than child sexual abuse and even the education purpose for which universities are supposedly created. Most people care more about the lives of the Kardashians and whatever sports stars they are dating/married to than the scientist who cured polio. Nearly everyone in America knows the name Mark Cuban from when the Mavericks won the championship, and many of them like me havent watched a single basketball game in their lives, yet how many know the name of Jonas Salk?
If I were to assert that I was superior to the majority of humanity my argument would not be that I prefer ATITD and EvE instead of LoL and CoD. Therefore we can assume from now on that When I make an argument involving that comparison that I am not asserting my superiority as a human being and we can stop having the same boring off topic argument over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
And yes, each of those overs represents a real time where I had this argument. Because its the go to argument for people who have no actual response to what I was saying and are derailing hard to avoid having a meaningful conversation. From this point forward I will avoid responding to any posts which put forth this inane and overused vector of defense because I am fucking tired of having the same argument over and over... You get the picture, no need to copy paste and over another 200 times. Can we please move on. |
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Cuathon
Advanced Member
Joined: 10/24/04
Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us. |
12/16/12 8:34:37 AM#93
Originally posted by lizardbones Again intelligence tends to correlate to the amount of time invested in a game. A smarter person will play a game like Bejelwed for less time than a dumber one. And furthermore playing a game specifically as a time waster, in this case you waiting for something to happen in WoW, is not the same thing as playing that game as your primary activity. There are dozens of obfuscating factors in game performance and amount of time played just like in any hypothesis we would use science to answer, which is why we like to have giant pools of participants in a study, because conclusions can only be generalized on a single axis. If we have good models on a large number of relevant data sets and we know certain values for an individual, only then could we assess why a specific individual performs at this level or that level. Your anecdotal evidence about your anonymous friends is so helpful in this discussion I assure you. I also fixed part of your post for you. |
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12/16/12 8:38:08 AM#94
I don't know I think worlds are there if you look for them. Eve certainly fits the bill. Darkfall uw should do too. Then you've stuff like wuurm for those that don't want pvp. Even looking at themepark games, the likes of gw2 and ps2 this year are much more world games than your sit in cities queueing to go instances games like wow and swtor.
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12/16/12 12:12:10 PM#95
Originally posted by Cuathon Lots of dribble .. and you totally gross over your very indefensible statement "sheep casual gamer but those games and the people who play them are dumb." If as you say, it is not a matter of intelligence .. it is a matter of choice, how can you know that people who play casual games are dumb? Are you saying there is no university professor who occasionally play angry birds to pass time? And whether you claim superiority is irrelevant. 1) "Dumb" has a negative connotation in the English language. Don't tell me you don't know that? If so, you are dumb. 2) Even if the word has no negative connotation, your statement itself cannot be true. Are you claiming everyone who has played Angry Birds, or one of the hundred of thousands of iOS casual game has an IQ of below 100? |
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12/16/12 1:13:10 PM#96
Originally posted by Cuathon ffs... Why don't you research the subject instead of throwing ridiculous numbers around? Remember CoD4:MW2? The one with a huge advertising campaign before launch? The best selling cross-platform game in its time (perhaps all time)? Yeah well, the development budget for that game was around $40 million. Guess what the marketing costs were? - $10 million. You make no sense. Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain |
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12/16/12 1:22:08 PM#97
Originally posted by Cuathon Judging people by the games they play is to judge them by which movie they watch. I love Star Wars Ep 4-6 and watched them many times. Considering the millions upon millions who watched them as well, I can't say 'people who watch them are dumb'. That's just not true. So why do you assert 'people who play them are dumb' when it comes to video games? Wonder why there seems to be more haters on the internet? Read this by an actual marketing guy to find out why. |
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Wow, I go away for a few days and now have to read 5+ pages of people taking my original words out of context. Look please try to understand while I attempt to clarify again.
I called people willing idiots. This was not a reference to their intelligence. It was a reference to their willingness to buy into revolving doors\ games that are shallow, lack complexity, rely on gerbil wheel or treadmill advancement, and dumb down player interaction to instanced qeue based gameplay. Who remembers Ultima Online? Don't reharsh the age old arguement that Ultima Online was this or that. Try to follow me here. Does anyone remember the experience of being in a digital world? You login and what was the first thing you thought? You look around, stroll around town for a bit, decide to yourself what you were going to do that day or who you were going to play with. You might go to the ocean and fish for a while, you might go mining or chopping wood. You might roleplay being a blacksmith and make weapons and armor for people strolling by. You might go hunting for leather. During all these things you always ran the risk of running into players or a player event and typically people stopped to interact with each other or take part in whatever antics were going on. People actually played the game to socialize and have fun together and random events, interactions, and immersion were common. Contrast that to games today. Open up any game and you see the same thing. Players running around here and there following this quest or that. They all are too busy chasing the latest hot pink shiney cloak of whatever with +14 this and that stat. Social interaction is usually reduced to people complaining about kill stealing or mob camping. Immersion is more or less completely gone from MMO's entirely. Ultra competetive gaming clans have more or less replaced the casual gaming "communities" that used to populate most MMO's. It's a completely difference experience altogether. Random teamwork and helping has pretty much been replaced by instanced gameplay. Complexity and innovation has been replaced by predictability and rehashed formulaic gameplay in my opinion
I suppose you could draw a social parallel to our current society that is all busy busy busy go go go and all the old timers complain today about how much better it was when neighbors knew each other and communities helped each other. I suppose I'm uselessly complaining much like the 70 somthing grandparents who used to rant to me not so long ago. I think along the development timeline to achieving the next big MMO, we have lost somthing that made the classics great. We still persue those things that made the first MMO's fantastic but developers always seem to fall slightly short of the goal and gamers are disappointed time and time again. I'm not educated well enough to know if this is a sign of an overall shift in our society or perhaps it's simply an indicator that I've gotten older over the years and numb to the next great thing in MMO's. I am however, intelligent enough to know that somthing has indeed changed and even if I can't articulate it, I know I don't much like it. |
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12/20/12 3:35:06 AM#99
We live in societies which are increasingly accomplished in both science and technology. I wish I could say the same for the average person. This film satirises where we seem to be heading and was rather good: |
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12/20/12 10:15:41 AM#100
Originally posted by Ciano That is just putting people down to feel superior. So what if those games lack complexity .. if they are fun, and serve the purpose to kill some time. Calling people names just because they play certain kind of games?
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