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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » MMO's are no longer "Worlds"

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198 posts found
  Ciano

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/09
Posts: 34

 
OP  12/15/12 2:58:23 AM#1

I'm probably thread number 1 million but I wanted to voice my own thoughts on this matter. I'm about 29. I've played nearly every MMO since Sierra's "The Realm" back in the 90's. I cut my MMO teeth on Ultima Online, Dabbled in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Auto Assault, Meridian 59, Planetside 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, Warhammer,  Darkfall, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and a whole host of other game's I've forgotten over the years.

 

I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world.

Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game.

What is my point? Somwhere along the way we lost the concept of what made an MMO and interactive world worth playing in. GM's are now glorified hall monitors designed to keep us in our class rooms while we have the latest MMO theories shoved down our throats. Independent thought is usually ignored and drown out by a plethora or willing idiots who abhore art, creativity, and a requirement for intellectual thought during a game. Instead we fill games with endless leveling treadmills, static themeparks full of shinies, pointless and repetative battlegrounds. Developers have removed all requirements of challenge, creativities, individualism from games. Everything is predictable and Game Masters are now wholly reviled for their intrusive and yet mostly useless role in MMO's.

Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?

All I want in the end is companies and players alike to release a game that goes back to the golden age of video gaming. Days when we logged in to play with certain people and participate in this event or that event because it was part of the story. Not to go on Quest A or B to obtain the latest must have item. Where game companies made a concerted effort to change the world in response to our actions or gave the tools for us to do it ourselves. I'll assert that innovative digital world likes Shadowbane, Salem, Wurm, don't fail because players don't want to play them. My assertion is that they fail because big name publishers with the money to make them successful are afraid to take a chance on them. That, and today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5155

12/15/12 4:04:13 AM#2

This is a topic that has been started many times before because there are so many who agree with you. No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland.

And did I mention how modern MMO’s are “fun”? As long as they are fun that excuses everything. Even if they are not fun for you and the countless others like you. Even if Modern MMO’s struggle to keep subs or cash shops open after two months, that does not matter.

We have lost an immense amount of gameplay in MMO’s and while some has been added players are right to feel they have been short changed.

  Recker

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/06
Posts: 169

12/15/12 4:18:36 AM#3
Originally posted by Ciano

I'm probably thread number 1 million but I wanted to voice my own thoughts on this matter. I'm about 29. I've played nearly every MMO since Sierra's "The Realm" back in the 90's. I cut my MMO teeth on Ultima Online, Dabbled in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Auto Assault, Meridian 59, Planetside 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, Warhammer,  Darkfall, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and a whole host of other game's I've forgotten over the years.

 

I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world.

Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game.

What is my point? Somwhere along the way we lost the concept of what made an MMO and interactive world worth playing in. GM's are now glorified hall monitors designed to keep us in our class rooms while we have the latest MMO theories shoved down our throats. Independent thought is usually ignored and drown out by a plethora or willing idiots who abhore art, creativity, and a requirement for intellectual thought during a game. Instead we fill games with endless leveling treadmills, static themeparks full of shinies, pointless and repetative battlegrounds. Developers have removed all requirements of challenge, creativities, individualism from games. Everything is predictable and Game Masters are now wholly reviled for their intrusive and yet mostly useless role in MMO's.

Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?

All I want in the end is companies and players alike to release a game that goes back to the golden age of video gaming. Days when we logged in to play with certain people and participate in this event or that event because it was part of the story. Not to go on Quest A or B to obtain the latest must have item. Where game companies made a concerted effort to change the world in response to our actions or gave the tools for us to do it ourselves. I'll assert that innovative digital world likes Shadowbane, Salem, Wurm, don't fail because players don't want to play them. My assertion is that they fail because big name publishers with the money to make them successful are afraid to take a chance on them. That, and today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with.

Thank you for putting most of my thoughts in writing i agree with 99% of every word writen. I seriously appreciate the time and effort it took for you to write this and if only people werent so lazy and would do the same and mail them into companies things might change.

BTW Google needs to make an MMO they have the money and the balls to do it, just my thoughts

  User Deleted
12/15/12 4:20:28 AM#4

I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design".  Maximize profits by reaching the largest number of people by providing a gameplay experience based on the desire of that group.

 

To my understanding, these players don't want worlds.  They want interactive entertainment.  That's how they see gaming.

 

Evolution or decay?  That depends on if you like the direction taken, or not.

 

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

12/15/12 4:36:26 AM#5

Humans are expensive, unreliable and difficult to replicate.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3481

12/15/12 4:37:27 AM#6

Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10427

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/15/12 4:39:48 AM#7


Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?


Because the developers who are writing those games have only ever written zero or one games to show that they know how to write games. The people with the money aren't going to give untested people millions of dollars to write something better.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Ciano

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/09
Posts: 34

 
OP  12/15/12 4:55:04 AM#8
Originally posted by jpnz

Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

Heh yeah actually I am putting my money where my mouth is. I don't currently sub to any travesty of an MMO that is currently in existance. The last MMO's I put any significant funds into were Wurm Online and Darkfall. Darkfall didn't have immersion but at least it had a lively poliical atmospere.

Your Dark Age of gaming is a fallacy. It wasn't a matter of being a basement gollum. Computers and MMO's in general were really only accessible to statistically small amounts of people due to their cost. Therefore, only those who were really into them would bother spending the money. In fact, Ultima Online's demographics were mostly teens and young professionals (finanacially independent) with a smattering of adults here and there that got into it.

Let's compare that to today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3481

12/15/12 5:02:09 AM#9
Originally posted by Ciano
Originally posted by jpnz

Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

Heh yeah actually I am putting my money where my mouth is. I don't currently sub to any travesty of an MMO that is currently in existance. The last MMO's I put any significant funds into were Wurm Online and Darkfall. Darkfall didn't have immersion but at least it had a lively poliical atmospere.

So you are not helping your cause by not spending money on MMOs that might fit your bill like Darkfall or EVE-Online?

We have games that do 'world' fairly well, including your beloved old school UO (Emu).

If I like something I buy it. That's how I tell the people that made it, 'hey I like this, please make more.' Its called capitalism.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3481

12/15/12 5:06:32 AM#10
Originally posted by Ciano
 

Your Dark Age of gaming is a fallacy. It wasn't a matter of being a basement gollum. Computers and MMO's in general were really only accessible to statistically small amounts of people due to their cost. Therefore, only those who were really into them would bother spending the money. In fact, Ultima Online's demographics were mostly teens and young professionals (finanacially independent) with a smattering of adults here and there that got into it.

Let's compare that to today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better.

Now we have MMOs being played by movie stars, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc etc.

Was the community better? Maybe for you personally.

For me, this current MMO community is miles better. YMMV.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  tuppe99

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/05
Posts: 249

12/15/12 5:10:44 AM#11

I know these games are not sandboxes, but why don't people (like myself) that are tired of games like WoW, not try VG, EQ2 or AC2?

Do those games not have much more depth than the games we complain about?

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3481

12/15/12 5:16:39 AM#12
Originally posted by tuppe99

I know these games are not sandboxes, but why don't people (like myself) that are tired of games like WoW, not try VG, EQ2 or AC2?

Do those games not have much more depth than the games we complain about?

This goes to the crux of the matter.

As long as the market says 'make more WoW clones!',  developers will follow that.

Free-market is working as intended.

 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5155

12/15/12 6:14:29 AM#13

But there is a strong element of consuming what you are given. If you have only played MMO's for the last three years you may not even know what an open world is. They will not know what RP tools are or a player driven economy.

Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden.

  Tjed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 161

12/15/12 6:17:54 AM#14
Originally posted by tuppe99

I know these games are not sandboxes, but why don't people (like myself) that are tired of games like WoW, not try VG, EQ2 or AC2?

Do those games not have much more depth than the games we complain about?

This is a good point.  I am playing Vanguard right now.  I still think it's the best game available.  I would love Vanguard with modern graphics and maybe smoother combat, but that's being picky.  It's a great game.  

I'm playing GW2 right now as well, and it is fun.  I'm of the opinion that both types of games can exist in the market today.  

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/15/12 6:23:15 AM#15
Yeah but to be fair, gw2 isn't as instance instance instance as your wow clone type games, it has shown a return to outdoor content.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/15/12 6:31:08 AM#16

 

 

 

"...today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with."

 

"No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland."

 

"...today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better."

 

"I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design"."

 

"Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden."

 

 

 

None of you realize how you sound right now?  Really?

  xeniar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 800

12/15/12 6:56:05 AM#17
Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

 

 

"...today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with."

 

"No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland."

 

"...today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better."

 

"I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design"."

 

"Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden."

 

 

 

None of you realize how you sound right now?  Really?

Loktofeit. i tought you where on the same page. regardless of how they are sounding.

 

@jpnz The thing why I and possible WE dont play AC2, EQ2 and vanguard is well, i tried vangaurd and i could not live with the combat (oh my god combat was even better before it) and graphics. Im playing things like halo 4 and assasins creed 3 and if you go back to vangaurd those graphics just annoy the crap out of me.

EQ2 i want to play the grapichs are fine there imo, but playing an MMO you want to actually meet people if those starter areas are all empty, your not giving the game a fair shot it deserves. Id love a buddy to play it with.

Theres enoug people who feel like this obviously, what we require is a next gen (can be soft graphics like WoW asswell) MMORPG, Persistant world minimalizing instancing, put politics in there and a reason to communicate and that game will be the greatest thing what ever happened to you. You might point to Darkfall right now but not evreyone likes FFA full loot PvP it would be more populair if we did.

  delete5230

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 2492

12/15/12 7:05:43 AM#18

Only older mmos had worlds.  Now we have what I call obnoxious zones with too much going on in a small area.  I'm playing Vanilla WoW right now and loving it ( don't ask me how because mmorpg will give me a ban ). The world is spread out.  Some times I may have to run or fly for 10 min to get their but it's all about the experience and the immersion in a simulated world.

Some would call this old school and outdated....I say my butt hole....The only difference is now we have the obnoxious part, fast gimmicks.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18804

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/15/12 7:12:10 AM#19
Originally posted by jpnz

Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

EVE, 3 subs that I actually pay cash money for, no Plex trading involved.

I find that its one of the last of the open world (universe) MMORPG's as I've come to accept the niche I occupy is apparently too small for modern day AAA developers to show  much interest in.

CCP gets maligned for much, and some of the criticism of EVE and the company is well deserved, but they do deserve kudos for remaining largely true to the vision that's driven the title for so long.

I may never unsub from EVE ever again.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/15/12 7:32:17 AM#20
Originally posted by xeniar
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"...today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with."

"No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland."

"...today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better."

"I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design"."

"Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden."

None of you realize how you sound right now?  Really?

Loktofeit. i tought you where on the same page. regardless of how they are sounding.

I'm a massive fan of community-driven sandbox-focused MMOs, but I'm not about to deem my preference correct or better than someone else's, let alone deride them for their entertainment preference.

 

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