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The Secret World

The Secret World 

General Discussion  » Taking legal action against The Secret World

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382 posts found
  Avarix

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 297

12/12/12 6:27:11 PM#81

This is one of the most ridiculous threads I have seen, and I have seen some crazies. It seems to be boiling down to people being mad that someone else is now getting the game for a much smaller price. You do know that if you wait a couple months for ANY game, the same thing happens, right? You pay for impatience. This shouldn't even be discussed until a DLC is released that costs more than the monthly FC point allowance lifetimers are getting.

 

Also, Kuppa, why is it EVERY time I click a TSW/Funcom thread, you're in it being negative? Why do you have such a hard on for this game/company? Take a breather.

  DarkOmega

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/07
Posts: 29

12/12/12 6:27:34 PM#82

Funcom is a terrible company when it comes to handling your money. They will strip whatever they can from  your wallet and will do whatever they can to ignore any attempts from you to get any sort of compensation.

 

Thankfully companies like Paypal exists which still believe in the rights of the consumer. They make it much less of a hassle to give a big F U to low life companies like Funcom.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3290

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

12/12/12 6:31:06 PM#83


Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by CalmOceans
If the TOS said that your life belongs to Blizzard in Blizzard's TOS, you would call that legally binding? Do you understand the difference between TOS and written law?

Yes. Are you implying your signature is not worth the paper it is written on?

The only exception *I* would countenance is not seeing the TOS & EULA before signing. Remember, one always has the option to NOT agree to the terms. Few ever do, though, so they go crying to the courts because of their own lack of responsibility.

"Help me!" "Save me from my stupidity!"

I happen to believe in the law of natural selection :)



A signature, is again, ONLY legally binding, if the paper that is being signed is within the confines of the law.

If I let you sign a contract that I can kill you, it is no longer legally binding, because the contract is not within the confines of the law.

If there is breach of contract when the TOS or EULA changes, it is not longer viable and will be ingored in court, if the EULA itself is not within the law, it will be ignored, if the EULA was presented after purchase, it will often be ignored, etc.



If *I* am stupid enough to sign said contract, please do me a favor. DO kill me :)

Now, if you held a gun to my head and forced me to sign said contract, then I can see trouble ahead. Nobody forced LTS players to agree to the TOS & EULA.

However, I *know* the American courts have taken up the banner of trying to protect people from their own stupidity, so this poster may get his wish. I hope to high heaven that they do not. I *know* the law is interpreted in many "inventive" ways never intended.

In today's society of victims in every corner, nothing would surprise me :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1066

12/12/12 6:31:23 PM#84
Originally posted by DarkOmega

Funcom is a terrible company when it comes to handling your money. They will strip whatever they can from  your wallet and will do whatever they can to ignore any attempts from you to get any sort of compensation.

Thankfully companies like Paypal exists which still believe in the rights of the consumer. They make it much less of a hassle to give a big F U to low life companies like Funcom.

Not sure where exactly this is coming from -- I'm sure there's a long story behind it.  Have had zero problems with FC customer service or payments.

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

12/12/12 6:31:44 PM#85
Originally posted by DarkOmega

Funcom is a terrible company when it comes to handling your money. They will strip whatever they can from  your wallet and will do whatever they can to ignore any attempts from you to get any sort of compensation.

 

Thankfully companies like Paypal exists which still believe in the rights of the consumer. They make it much less of a hassle to give a big F U to low life companies like Funcom.

 

Actually lifers are still given the deal of a life time for it. only 2 or 3 are complaining... normally the same ones too. Heres the thing with what they are given Funcom will technically be paying YOU to play the game. So long as the game sticks around that long. Wanna know how to make a game stick around that long PLAY IT.

 

If i am correct if the game survives into 2014 on this model and lifertime will come ot with a PROFIT, from a Gains to Loss standbpoint. Because Funcom is such a lowlife company that they pay you to play their games... Those greedy bastards.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Azaqin

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 65

12/12/12 6:31:51 PM#86

Seriously? Legal action? Over TSW going B2P?  You want to lawyer up over the balance of $15? You do realize that even if you did manage to put together some form of class action lawsuit, the lawyer would get most of the settlement and the players would be left with maybe .30 to .50 on the dollar of their "lost" money at best. And no lawyer would take it because, let's face it, TSW doesn't have the subscriber base or the liquidity to make it worth even the most desperate ambulance-chasing lawyer's time. (Now if Blizz pulled this, yeah. Lawyers would be crawling out of the woodwork. But TSW ain't WoW.)

 

By going B2P, and offering what is, let's be honest, a pretty decent deal for both subscribers and lifetimers, Funcom keeps the game going. The option, of course, being a protracted death of the game, which would make that lifetime sub worthless in actuality rather than just perception.

 

Take the lifetimer's deal. They are going to throw $10 worth of cash shop points at you, every month, for the rest of your life at no cost to you. Plus the other fluff crap. The value of a lifetime sub just went up, not down, since before all you got for your sub essentially was access to the game. Now you get access, plus cash value every month. Who gives a shit if they expire? You're going to spend them fast anyway. And if you decide to take a break from the game, you'll come back to a tasty 7200 points sitting in your balance.

 

Now, the regular sub deal I'm not so sure of. $15 a month for $10 worth of cash shop points IS $10 more than you were getting before, so you are basically paying $5 for the extras: the XP booster, the monthly fluff item, and the cash shop discount. I'll be honest...I'm not sold on the fact those things are worth $5 a month, and I doubt I would really have use for the 1200 cas shop points anyway. There was rarely anything in there I wanted to begin with. For me, personally, it would not make sense to pay to sub anymore. They SHOULD have ponied up the full $15 worth of cash shop points for a sub.

 

But if I was a Lifetimer, I wouldn't be upset by the deal at all. To make up for the change they're going to give me the equivelent of $10 a month? (Well, $5 a month after I use points for the updates, but even so, $5 is better than a kick in the cojones.)

 

As for the whole "refunding" of sub fees. Never. Gonna. Happen. No point in moaning about it. If you read the fine print you would have seen that you were not paying for the game, you were paying for access to the game, a licesnce if you will, and that the license can be altered at any time without prior notification. No matter what time they scheduled the shift to B2P, most people would get caught in the middle of their sub period. There really isn't anything they can do about that. Every game that has made a paradigm shift like this has had people screaming "NOT FAIR!" and "WHERE'S MY MONEY?" And no game has EVER refunded one penny in this situation.

 

If it was good enough to pay for before, it's good enough to pay for now. It's not like the game got any different because of the switch. Just be happy it didn't go F2P. Then you would have had to deal with a mob of asshats dropping in just to grief.

  zephermarkus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/09
Posts: 226

12/12/12 6:34:19 PM#87
Originally posted by Synthetick
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Isn't this why mobile providers let former users get "grandfathered in", because if they change the terms of service when someone has a contract, they get sued?

Try READING the terms of services, jesus.

Of course a mobile provider has a completely different terms of service than an multiplayer online video game where within that industry the pay models are constantly shifting.

Apples and grapefruit.

EULA AND TOS never hold up in court and the customer always wins. Tos and Eula are there so that ididots that don;t know any better are scared to try and do anything. Go read and mmo lawsuit and u will see the person that lost an account or had some other gripe that is covered in the tos the courts have always hrown the tos and eula out. You can't  take payment for something then take it away that is stealing.

  jdnewell

Elite Member

Joined: 7/04/06
Posts: 1876

12/12/12 6:35:21 PM#88

If you think that small amount of money you feel cheated on is worth suing over then more power to ya I say.

For all the time, effort and money you will spend will amount to much more $  than they " owe " you.

 

Good luck

  Neo_Liberty

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 437

12/12/12 6:37:11 PM#89
Originally posted by DarkOmega

Funcom is a terrible company when it comes to handling your money. They will strip whatever they can from  your wallet and will do whatever they can to ignore any attempts from you to get any sort of compensation.

 

Thankfully companies like Paypal exists which still believe in the rights of the consumer. They make it much less of a hassle to give a big F U to low life companies like Funcom.

LOL, at this point everyone is saying the same thing about every mmo company.. You all are adults.. you should know by now the world does not run on good will.. they have to eat... let them make their money.

  huskie77

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/06
Posts: 369

12/12/12 6:39:44 PM#90
Originally posted by zephermarkus
Originally posted by Synthetick
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Isn't this why mobile providers let former users get "grandfathered in", because if they change the terms of service when someone has a contract, they get sued?

Try READING the terms of services, jesus.

Of course a mobile provider has a completely different terms of service than an multiplayer online video game where within that industry the pay models are constantly shifting.

Apples and grapefruit.

EULA AND TOS never hold up in court and the customer always wins. Tos and Eula are there so that ididots that don;t know any better are scared to try and do anything. Go read and mmo lawsuit and u will see the person that lost an account or had some other gripe that is covered in the tos the courts have always hrown the tos and eula out. You can't  take payment for something then take it away that is stealing.

Your statement is either ignorant or an intentional misrepresentation. There is no precedent for these "facts". Cite the cases you are referring to please.  Look at a EULA or TOS and use CONTROL-F and search for mediation. These contracts use the enforceable use of mediation in all cases that the EULA or TOS do not violate human rights or local law and federal law.

  Azaqin

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 65

12/12/12 6:40:10 PM#91
ya know.....if by some act of the Gods someone WAS able to push a class action lawsuit through the courts....you would never see a dime from it. The only effect it would have would be that Funcom would immediately go into bankruptcy to protect their assets, and that would kill off TSW overnight. A successful lawsuit would only end the game the OP claims he wants to play. 
  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1168

12/12/12 6:44:36 PM#92

IMO you were an idiot in the first place to buy a lifetime sub to one of todays themepark mmo's. Everyone should know by now they barely have a weeks worth of content. Now if it was FF11 back before abbysea, I could see a lifetime sub being worth it. Funny how ff11 is so time consuming, yet it still survives to this day as a sub based mmo, and still has a healthy playerbase, yet all the themepark mmo's being released crash and burn in a month or 2, due to nothing to do at lv cap. As its been shown only having pve raiding with no purpose or use for the raid gear is not cutting it anymore. They need to do what daoc pre-spellcraft did, pve raid for the best gear, then you can use it for pvp. Or better example eq2, the AA system it has lets you earn skill points you can spend on talents, some of them add totally new skills, others buff other skills, or give stat boosts, FF11 has this kind of system as well, with Mertis.

Problem with themepark mmo's is: nothing to do outside of quest after quest, and non-existant endgame that has staying power. Also IMO if you bought into WoW's endgame you are also a fool. Because its about as totally dead end as you can get in a mmo, get raid gear.. then what? the gear has no use at all anymore, doesn't add new abilities or skills for your char, there is no other content to use it for so it just rots. The other main problem is raiding is just too easy, I loved wow back before the first expasion, where raiding was for the elite/hardcore, and not the easy mode casual smacktard garbage the game has now.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  Derros

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 1019

12/12/12 6:45:14 PM#93

Caveat freaking Emptor, YOU bought an unproven product, YOU knew the history of funcom, YOU took a gamble and lost.  What do you want funcom to do?  continue to persue a failed monitization strategy just so you could "get your monies worth?"  What, did you want them to do what TOR did with thier F2P model?   

 

What are you gonna do, hire a lawyer to get $83 (factoring out the months you already played) back?  With all the lawer fees and court fees and stuff, you'd be lucky to get back $15. 

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

12/12/12 6:45:23 PM#94
Originally posted by Roxtarr

So there are no Terms and Conditions for players in Europe?  How can you plan an MMO without agreeing to terms and conditions?

IANAL but my understanding is that legal systems in most parts of the world see click-through argeements as being more like a handshake than a contract - that you can't hold people to anything more than common sense since they don't get to see the fine print until after the box has been opened.

I can't imagine that arguing that the company has devalued what you paid for can go anywhere.  You don't own anything in the game so it can't be devalued or lost.  Time already played is already delivered, so there's no loss there.   I think the best someone could do is argue that a bait and switch has occurred and that the game the company is providing now is not similar to the one that was promised, even beyond the normal "game experience may change" warning on the box and that there should be a refund of the remaining subscription time.

But if you bought a lifetime subscription ... well, unless the company promised how long that lifetime would be, then caveat emptor. 

  dancingstar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/19/11
Posts: 297

12/12/12 6:50:33 PM#95
Originally posted by Kuppa
<snip>

The thing here is that you have to compare it to what it was before. Before a lifer would get ALL the content and some points to spend on the shop. Now you get more points but you also have to buy these DLC packs(content), so you DON'T get all the content. You have to decide between content or shop.

Were did you get that $5 quote? it's not in that link.

Where do you get it from that Lifetimers got store points prior to this change?

Players who were in closed beta and pre-purchased got a shed-load of "bonus points" (which had to be spent before the end of September), if you weren't in CB or bought the game after the start of July, you didn't get these.

Lifetimers got a 10% discount on cosmetic clothing in the store (now increased to 20% discount on everything apart from DLC -- including account services like renames and dimension transfers).

Everyone who completed 30 missions during one or another of various post-launch promotions got 1200 "bonus points"

(I got 1200 bonus points when I bought the game as compensation for a billing error which in any case was rectified before I discovered it had happened.)

On  topic, as someone who bought Lifetime fully aware of the possibility that the game could crash and burn spectacularly, I hereby dissociate myself from the OP.

  WhiteLantern

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 2779

12/12/12 6:50:41 PM#96

Firstly: I'm glad to hear that contracts for digital services are null and void in the EU. Sounds like a great place.

 

Secondly: Internet lawyers.......ADVANCE!!!!!

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3290

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

12/12/12 6:50:42 PM#97


Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by CalmOceans
If the TOS said that your life belongs to Blizzard in Blizzard's TOS, you would call that legally binding? Do you understand the difference between TOS and written law?

Yes. Are you implying your signature is not worth the paper it is written on?

The only exception *I* would countenance is not seeing the TOS & EULA before signing. Remember, one always has the option to NOT agree to the terms. Few ever do, though, so they go crying to the courts because of their own lack of responsibility.

"Help me!" "Save me from my stupidity!"

I happen to believe in the law of natural selection :)



Actually, the most common reasons these TOS and EULA trials get contested and won are based on the fact that you can't sign away your rights to certain things, and that the way those contracts are presented make getting a refund on the product or service very difficult.  Stuff like, buying a game at the store, taking it home to install and register only to decide you don't agree to the contracts.  The store won't take back opened software and there are rarely ways of getting a company to directly issue a refund without a lot of hassle.

The main problem is that you aren't presented the contract until after you've paid for it, and by then your refund options are often limited.



I do understand this. As far as I know, nobody who chose to be a lifetime subscriber to TSW signed away anything that they legally had no rights to.

As far as returning software, that is a whole 'nother can of worms :)

Just poking around a bit, I found these games have their TOS on their webpages, ready to be read by those interested in doing so.
Everquest
Guild Wars 2 User Agreement
World of Warcraft
The Secret World - TOS
The Secret World - EULA
WildStar

It would not surprise me if there are some games that do not have these legal contracts posted, but I am fairly sure the vast majority of games do.

For me, it really boils down to what are an end user's responsibilities?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1066

12/12/12 6:54:04 PM#98
Originally posted by huskie77
Originally posted by zephermarkus
Originally posted by Synthetick
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Isn't this why mobile providers let former users get "grandfathered in", because if they change the terms of service when someone has a contract, they get sued?

Try READING the terms of services, jesus.

Of course a mobile provider has a completely different terms of service than an multiplayer online video game where within that industry the pay models are constantly shifting.

Apples and grapefruit.

EULA AND TOS never hold up in court and the customer always wins. Tos and Eula are there so that ididots that don;t know any better are scared to try and do anything. Go read and mmo lawsuit and u will see the person that lost an account or had some other gripe that is covered in the tos the courts have always hrown the tos and eula out. You can't  take payment for something then take it away that is stealing.

Your statement is either ignorant or an intentional misrepresentation. There is no precedent for these "facts". Cite the cases you are referring to please.  Look at a EULA or TOS and use CONTROL-F and search for mediation. These contracts use the enforceable use of mediation in all cases that the EULA or TOS do not violate human rights or local law and federal law.

Woo hoo!  Go lawyer speak!

  Elsabolts

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 2672

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of those that would threaten It

12/12/12 6:54:13 PM#99

Does this mean that you will no longer be able to get a Mmorpg T-shirt ? " Sigh " Could Mmorpg get hauled into this by Lawyers ?

  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

12/12/12 6:55:44 PM#100

pffffttt......hahahaha.  OP you are silly.  I am entertained though.

However, you have made up the amount of money you  lost with your lifetime sub by recieveing all this sound legal advice; FOR FREE no less.  In the end you win, OP.

 

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