Originally posted by banzai014

As some of you may be aware, Funcom's The Secret World today shifted from a subscription only model to B2P (http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/12/the-secret-world-officially-abolishes-subscriptions/). This was a completely unannounced and sudden change: the only warning given was a "prank" youtube video (http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/10/the-secret-worlds-dev-video-blog-begins-end-of-days-chronicle/).

This leaves players with existing subscription time and lifetime subscribers in the lurch. In this new model, players that purchase the box price have full access to the game in its current state. Players can then subscribe for $15/month for 1200 Funcom points ($10 in real money) that expire after 6 months needed to buy future DLC (slated to be released in monthly installments costing $5-10),  a fluff vanity item of the month, an xp booster item and a 10% discount on the item shop. Existing subscribers are being switched to this plan for the remainder of their subscription time, without a refund option. Remember that these subscribers also had to buy the game box in the beginning.

This is not what subscribers paid for.  The deal they signed up for has been changed without their consent or prior knowledge. The terms of agreement have been pulled out from under them. Subscribers paid for access to updates ("DLC") but also access to the game itself. In the P2P model you simply could not log in if you were'nt subscribed. Now that you can get full access for free, the value of the subscription has been cheapened.

The services subscribers get with the B2P model are worthless. $15 per month for $10 worth in limited time points, whereas a B2P player can buy DLC each month for cheaper ($5) and have exactly the same access to the game. $15 (sub per month) > $10 (in virtual Funcom monies) > $5 per month for DLC you need to keep up with other players.

I feel that the subscription option is only there so that they don't have to refund people with existing subs and of course lifetimers. The sub has no value and is a ripoff. A sub gave players both access to new content and to the game itself. Since everyone has access to the game now for the box price, the sub has lost part of its value and so people with existing sub time should demand a refund. I would really like to know what a lawyer's legal opinion of this change would be.

I have contacted Massively and MMORPG.com suggesting they write an article investigating the legal implications of TSW's B2P change or otherwise recommend me a lawyer specializing in this area that I could talk to. I hope this way we can get something started moving forward and clarify exactly  what legal recourse existing subscribers have. My demands are fair: I only ask that players get the option of having their extant subscription time refunded, since the subscription service has so wholly changed from what they originally intended to pay for (i.e. which in large part was paying for access to the game itself).

So before the change, subscribers did not get any discouts on item shop, and had to pay for the expansions/dlc as well.

Now subscribers get a discount, get 1200 points to pay for dlc, xp booster and a fluff item.  Yes people doing the other option may still get a better deal but the subscribers are getting more than they do before.

edit - and there was talk about f2p even near the beginning.  One of the devs in an interview stated they do have plans for f2p should they need to do that.

Originally posted by FromHell

Originally posted by Teala
See, it is for this very reason that lifetime subs are worthless.

They MADE it worthless by giving away almost everything for free which I paid 200$ for.

 

Today I´m fed up with MMOs, look around, all cash grabs, no exceptions.

And the last bastion beside EvE, TSW catered to the cheapskates. Thanks for nothing. Now the 30$ lolkids will try to do investigation quests and fill up the chat with ""lollzthisgamesucks""whatis goin on lolzzz"

 

sad day

Please go read the FAQ.  It's the best B2P model I've seen.

Again, I think legal action is a bit over the top.  I just want my bonus points to NOT expire and the 20% discount to include DLC and if i got those, I would be fricken estatic.

For new players, this new model rocks!

Originally posted by CalmOceans
Isn't this why mobile providers let former users get "grandfathered in", because if they change the terms of service when someone has a contract, they get sued?

Try READING the terms of services, jesus.

Of course a mobile provider has a completely different terms of service than an multiplayer online video game where within that industry the pay models are constantly shifting.

Apples and grapefruit.

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by ph3n0m73
ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.

Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change.

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789

How exactly is it a better deal than previously?

As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.

This also definitely is not the first title to offer lifetime subscriptions and then switch their model. Not to mention, this setup is more beneficial to the former lifetimers than many other titles that made a similar jump.

Honestly, how can you threaten legal actions when you agree to legally binding document(s) as soon as you hop on their services. It's just redundant, there's no ground to stand on, and in this industry if you didn't see it coming, well, you were basically ASKING for it. Seriously.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by ph3n0m73
ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.

Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change.

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789

How exactly is it a better deal than previously?

 

As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.

Well, financially they weren't cutting it. You could of stayed as a subscription based game and eventually had your doors closed. Or you can adapt, realize this is in everyone's best interest, and continue to play. Or not.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

So before the change, subscribers did not get any discouts on item shop, and had to pay for the expansions/dlc as well.

Now subscribers get a discount, get 1200 points to pay for dlc, xp booster and a fluff item.  Yes people doing the other option may still get a better deal but the subscribers are getting more than they do before.

edit - and there was talk about f2p even near the beginning.  One of the devs in an interview stated they do have plans for f2p should they need to do that.

No the updates (Issues) were free and came with the sub. You could sub at a later date and get all pre-existing updates (which were you know updates integrated into the game world like in all real MMOs - WoW, EVE, not separate dlc) for no extra cost.

Originally posted by banzai014

Originally posted by Ortwig

Sigh.  Please go read the FAQ (carefully!) on how things are changing for subs and lifetimers.  I think you will see that both are making out very well with the transition, even better than where things were yesterday.  It's actually a better deal than the old GM pack.

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789

It doesn't matter. It might be a deal, but it's not the deal I signed up for: and 1200 points is still $10, less than $15 a month.

The right thing to do is refund our remaining time and if we want to sub for your "better deal" we will.

You're actually getting more from your lifetime, and you're unhappy simply because it changed?  Okay....  I can understand people not liking change, but that's a bit crazy.  "Here's an extra $10 per month.  No! -- that wasn't our agreement!  I'm suing!"

Originally posted by banzai014

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

So before the change, subscribers did not get any discouts on item shop, and had to pay for the expansions/dlc as well.

Now subscribers get a discount, get 1200 points to pay for dlc, xp booster and a fluff item.  Yes people doing the other option may still get a better deal but the subscribers are getting more than they do before.

edit - and there was talk about f2p even near the beginning.  One of the devs in an interview stated they do have plans for f2p should they need to do that.

No the updates (Issues) were free and came with the sub. You could sub at a later date and get all pre-existing updates (which were you know  updates to the game like in all real MMOs - WoW, EVE, not separate dlc) for no extra cost.

So things change. Did you hear about the Darkfall launch date getting delayed a day or so before launch? Let's sue. There must be a case because things changed, obviously.

Originally posted by Synthetick

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by ph3n0m73
ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.

Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change.

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789

How exactly is it a better deal than previously?

 

As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.

Well, financially they weren't cutting it. You could of stayed as a subscription based game and eventually had your doors closed. Or you can adapt, realize this is in everyone's best interest, and continue to play. Or not.

 

I'm not complaining about the transition, just refuting what he is stating or at least trying to understand it.

Originally posted by Synthetick

Originally posted by CalmOceans
Isn't this why mobile providers let former users get "grandfathered in", because if they change the terms of service when someone has a contract, they get sued?

Try READING the terms of services, jesus.

TOS is not legally binding, again, EULA and the TOS are not law, they can be ignored or enforced by a counrt at will.

Stop thinking EULA are legally binding contracts, they are not.

Many counrts have completely ingored EULA and thrown them out, especially because EULA are often not viewable before purchases of the item in retail stores.

If you change the contract or payment model on someone, the court decides who was wrong and who wasn't, not the EULA.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by ph3n0m73
ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.

Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change.

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789

How exactly is it a better deal than previously?

As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.

The free points every month will be more than enough to cover a $5 DLC.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Synthetick

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by ph3n0m73
ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.

Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change.

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789

How exactly is it a better deal than previously?

 

As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.

Well, financially they weren't cutting it. You could of stayed as a subscription based game and eventually had your doors closed. Or you can adapt, realize this is in everyone's best interest, and continue to play. Or not.

 

I'm not complaining about the transition, just refuting what he is stating or at least trying to understand it.

I honestly wasn't trolling. I was answering the question, "how is this better than before."

Maybe I answered under a different context, but..

Before, you were on the path of the game's doors closing. Now, they're changing the way they monetize their title to offer continue support and to keep it operating, and to break even.

Any decision made to extend the length of the title at this point is a good move. That's where I see it better off. There's more of a future now than before.

Originally posted by banzai014

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

So before the change, subscribers did not get any discouts on item shop, and had to pay for the expansions/dlc as well.

Now subscribers get a discount, get 1200 points to pay for dlc, xp booster and a fluff item.  Yes people doing the other option may still get a better deal but the subscribers are getting more than they do before.

edit - and there was talk about f2p even near the beginning.  One of the devs in an interview stated they do have plans for f2p should they need to do that.

No the updates (Issues) were free and came with the sub. You could sub at a later date and get all pre-existing updates (which were you know updates integrated into the game world like in all real MMOs - WoW, EVE, not separate dlc) for no extra cost.

So your saying there were never any plans to have expansions?

Updates were free. I imagine many updates will likely still be free.  But I never expected a significant amount of content to be added for free. 

HAHAHAHA, oh thats too funy... wait your serious.

If your try this you WILL spend more money in court then the cost of the LTF Sub. and you will LOSE because when you read the TOS you will see you have no ground what so ever.

So how about this, Instead of bitching moaning and complaining you give it a month to see if there is ACTUALLY something to complain about. Your still getting things FREE yes more than the subs. Also if you calculate how long it will take to equalize loss to gain from buying the LTS, you will realize you are almost back to 0. not to mention your still gaining things.

so take a month or 2 and see if your little rage thread was a waste or not.