Originally posted by xmechna

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course. It is only fair that the pay customers goet some advantage, don't you think?

Like I said, if you enjoy being a second-class citizen in every game and hop from game to game F2P is a viable alternative, but don't pretend like this is a good deal.

Players who don't spend a dime in a F2P game are kept in the game for one reason and one reason only, it is to entertain the paying customers, once your function is up, usually after about 1 month into the game, the power of the cash shop items increases and you become irrelevant.

You mean like in rift now where my sub is still active but because I didn't want to pay for  the expansion pack Storm Legion I'm at a disadvantage compared to everyone else who did?  Oh, I guess extra DLC and rmt/MT fees are okay if you're also paying a sub on top of that.

I play mmos to be around other gamers while they're gaming.  So yeah, I will enjoy that time.  What they spend doesn't concern me and isn't my business to nose into.  It's odd to me that subscription proponents are so concerned about what everyone else is doing with their own money.

fixed that for you

Fixed what?  Do you actually have a point and are able to communicate it?  You're right I didn't buy Storm Legion because I didn't want to.

Try harder.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by xmechna

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course. It is only fair that the pay customers goet some advantage, don't you think?

Like I said, if you enjoy being a second-class citizen in every game and hop from game to game F2P is a viable alternative, but don't pretend like this is a good deal.

Players who don't spend a dime in a F2P game are kept in the game for one reason and one reason only, it is to entertain the paying customers, once your function is up, usually after about 1 month into the game, the power of the cash shop items increases and you become irrelevant.

You mean like in rift now where my sub is still active but because I didn't want to pay for  the expansion pack Storm Legion I'm at a disadvantage compared to everyone else who did?  Oh, I guess extra DLC and rmt/MT fees are okay if you're also paying a sub on top of that.

I play mmos to be around other gamers while they're gaming.  So yeah, I will enjoy that time.  What they spend doesn't concern me and isn't my business to nose into.  It's odd to me that subscription proponents are so concerned about what everyone else is doing with their own money.

fixed that for you

Fixed what?  Do you actually have a point and are able to communicate it?  You're right I didn't buy Storm Legion because I didn't want to.

Try harder.

you refuse to buy  the expansion piss an moan on the forums yet you want it and seem to think because you pay 14.99$ a month you are intitled to a massive content upgrade that costs a great deal of  money effort and time to make they have to make that money back off box sales to profit .

looking over kickstarter and seeing the costs of  makeing a game they are redonculas and most the  games there are B rate indy games i shutter at the costs of makeing a polished AAA mmorpg.

Originally posted by Jalitan

Let the freeloaders that are happily playing thier F2P games and not giving any money continue as they are. Eventually their numbers will increase and the F2P model will either fail because of the lack of revenue or they eventually force people to pay in one way or another. The F2P revenue model cannot last because of the  growing freeloading mentality.

Look at all the freeloaders responding to this thread. They show signs of  being proud and clever that they do not pay anything even if they have the money.  If you don't care about paying for the developers hard work and maintenance costs, why would they care about you?

You made my day. Brought some sunshine into it - ye did. I was moping about all this F2P stuff thinking, well, is it over, has the genre changed but I hadn't even pondered what you point out. Eventually the players will outnumber the payers, if the payers don't get a foul taste in their mouth from that - they might be robots.

I get paid every day for working on code, it may not be game code but if anyone knows the work involved, it's another coder. Of course I think that software development deserves pay too. I know that I don't work for free and to expect others to do it for me is short-sighted, no one codes expansions when dead from not eating.

Originally posted by xmechna

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by xmechna

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course. It is only fair that the pay customers goet some advantage, don't you think?

Like I said, if you enjoy being a second-class citizen in every game and hop from game to game F2P is a viable alternative, but don't pretend like this is a good deal.

Players who don't spend a dime in a F2P game are kept in the game for one reason and one reason only, it is to entertain the paying customers, once your function is up, usually after about 1 month into the game, the power of the cash shop items increases and you become irrelevant.

You mean like in rift now where my sub is still active but because I didn't want to pay for  the expansion pack Storm Legion I'm at a disadvantage compared to everyone else who did?  Oh, I guess extra DLC and rmt/MT fees are okay if you're also paying a sub on top of that.

I play mmos to be around other gamers while they're gaming.  So yeah, I will enjoy that time.  What they spend doesn't concern me and isn't my business to nose into.  It's odd to me that subscription proponents are so concerned about what everyone else is doing with their own money.

fixed that for you

Fixed what?  Do you actually have a point and are able to communicate it?  You're right I didn't buy Storm Legion because I didn't want to.

Try harder.

you refuse to buy  the expansion piss an moan on the forums yet you want it and seem to think because you pay 14.99$ a month you are intitled to a massive content upgrade that costs a great deal of  money effort and time to make they have to make that money back off box sales to profit .

looking over kickstarter and seeing the costs of  makeing a game they are redonculas and most the  games there are B rate indy games i shutter at the costs of makeing a polished AAA mmorpg.

I don't think thats what he was doing at all.  He was drawin a comparison about cash shop advantages and advantages for expansion.  IMO he is right, they both provide opportunities for advancement that cost money.

Not doing the cash shop may mean you are at a disadvantage compared to others.  Not getting the expansion may mean you are at a disadvantage compared to others.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by xmechna

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by xmechna

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course. It is only fair that the pay customers goet some advantage, don't you think?

Like I said, if you enjoy being a second-class citizen in every game and hop from game to game F2P is a viable alternative, but don't pretend like this is a good deal.

Players who don't spend a dime in a F2P game are kept in the game for one reason and one reason only, it is to entertain the paying customers, once your function is up, usually after about 1 month into the game, the power of the cash shop items increases and you become irrelevant.

You mean like in rift now where my sub is still active but because I didn't want to pay for  the expansion pack Storm Legion I'm at a disadvantage compared to everyone else who did?  Oh, I guess extra DLC and rmt/MT fees are okay if you're also paying a sub on top of that.

I play mmos to be around other gamers while they're gaming.  So yeah, I will enjoy that time.  What they spend doesn't concern me and isn't my business to nose into.  It's odd to me that subscription proponents are so concerned about what everyone else is doing with their own money.

fixed that for you

Fixed what?  Do you actually have a point and are able to communicate it?  You're right I didn't buy Storm Legion because I didn't want to.

Try harder.

you refuse to buy  the expansion piss an moan on the forums yet you want it and seem to think because you pay 14.99$ a month you are intitled to a massive content upgrade that costs a great deal of  money effort and time to make they have to make that money back off box sales to profit .

looking over kickstarter and seeing the costs of  makeing a game they are redonculas and most the  games there are B rate indy games i shutter at the costs of makeing a polished AAA mmorpg.

I don't think thats what he was doing at all.  He was drawin a comparison about cash shop advantages and advantages for expansion.  IMO he is right, they both provide opportunities for advancement that cost money.

Not doing the cash shop may mean you are at a disadvantage compared to others.  Not getting the expansion may mean you are at a disadvantage compared to others.

if that was his intent then my sincerest apologies.

Originally posted by Onomas
Free to play games aren't all they're cracked up to be. . They do have negative points about free to play that many here do not talk about.

They definately do.  It just comes down to personal preference as to which model works best for your style. 

Actually for me it doesn't even come down to that.  It comes down to do I find the game fun enough to bother paying for.  Thats it. 

Originally posted by Vorthanion

 

Paying customers should have ALL the advantages and then some.  Freeloading should only get you so far and in my book, that isn't far at all.

That is, of course, only a matter of degree. As long as is far enough to have fun ... I don't think i care.

Originally posted by Onomas
Free to play games aren't all they're cracked up to be. . They do have negative points about free to play that many here do not talk about.

What are you smoking? There are lot of ranting about F2P in this thread and others, from calling it a scam to p2w.

The good news is .... i don't have to convince anyone. I am playing F2P today. It is free for me. I am having fun ... and i am just letting the world know.

All this talk about "second class citizen", "dev don't care" ... and so on and so forth .. it is all moot.

I logged into PS2 .. i can head shot people. I can ride in vehicles. I am having a good time.

Ditto when i logged into STO.

And at some point in the future, if indeed they are no longer fun (which i will grant you that it is not impossible, but certainly not tomorrow or this coming weekend), i will stop playing and do something else.

Originally posted by CalmOceans
Good luck on spending more on F2P to enjoy the game.

Pfft, never spent a penny in a cash shop and never will.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by CalmOceans
Good luck on spending more on F2P to enjoy the game.

Pfft, never spent a penny in a cash shop and never will.

I think some who have no self-control just can't understand how others can restrain from spending money.

I have been playing F2P for quite some time, and i haven't spent a cent yet. It is also well known that a majority of players don't pay .. and the games are subsidized by whales.

So basicaly you are a freeloader, and want more games F2P so you can play and not pay a dime. You actualy dont care if the games are worthy to be mmo's, you just want your fast and cheap entertainment? From all your posts, i think im pretty spot on.

Now how long do you think that will last? If every game went f2p and no one paid a dime, do you realy think you will have any games to play? No profit usualy = dead game.

We need to work on making mmorpg's better, not cheaper. Sorry this is the wrong attitude to have.

And you need to stop acting as if you speak for the entire community, you keep saying "we" "us" etc...... When in fact in most these threads, you guys are the minority.

Many want a real world, a real game, a large world, quests, story, crafting, housing, exploration, longevity, social interaction, and so much more. You few keep bashing everyone that speaks for this. Stop trying to dumb down our games, start contributing to make them better.

Originally posted by Onomas

So basicaly you are a freeloader, and want more games F2P so you can play and not pay a dime. You actualy dont care if the games are worthy to be mmo's, you just want your fast and cheap entertainment? From all your posts, i think im pretty spot on.

Yeh. Isn't it great?

Now how long do you think that will last? If every game went f2p and no one paid a dime, do you realy think you will have any games to play? No profit usualy = dead game.

Evidence shows that there are always whales. It has lasted for years .. prob more years. But why would i ever care? It is not like MMO is the only entertainment. If it stops tomorrow (which is not likely), i will do soemthing else.

And seriously .. do you think iti s going to stop? DDO is adding content. LOTRO is adding content. STO is adding content. TSW is going F2P. Marvel Heroes is coming out as F2P only. MWO is F2P. Care to wager any money on there will be no F2P games by the end of 2013?

We need to work on making mmorpg's better, not cheaper. Sorry this is the wrong attitude to have.

I certainly don't need to "work on" anything. This is entertainment. I consume what is produce in the market .. it is that simple. And btw, it is moot .. you are not working on a MMO, i am not working on a MMO. We are jsut consumers.

And you need to stop acting as if you speak for the entire community, you keep saying "we" "us" etc...... When in fact in most these threads, you guys are the minority.

I don't. This thread, very obviously, is about ME getting off p2p. I never said you should, or everyone is doing so. From the response, i am not the only one though.

Many want a real world, a real game, a large world, quests, story, crafting, housing, exploration, longevity, social interaction, and so much more. You few keep bashing everyone that speaks for this. Stop trying to dumb down our games, start contributing to make them better.

 

And i don't. I want good games. You guys keep bashing people who disagree, why shouldn't i express my opinion. People who want good games ... their prefernces are as valid as yours.

And "dumb down"? That is condenscending to think that games that you don't like are "dumb down".

Plus, i don't "contribute" to games, i play them to have fun. Really .. you contribute to movie making too?

 

 

Gamasutra: Designing Freemium Titles for Hardcore Gamers:

Building frustration

Frustration is what drives players to actually spend money in a "free" game. The mechanism is simple:

1) get the players to enjoy the game,

2) give them a taste for game progression through short and medium-term rewards,

3) make new progression rewards increasingly numerous AND long to get. When they cannot wait any longer, they'll start buying.

There are variations around this principle, but you get the idea. That sounds awful -- and it is hard to imagine that any gamer, in particular demanding hardcore gamers -- would break down and buy something.

But they do.

A successful freemium game is designed in such a way that the player will never resent that situation. How is that possible? First, the game must offer genuine gameplay depth and be generous. If players feel that the game is asking for real money very early on or is offering its full features only to players that have paid, they'll quit. But that's not all; you want the player to get lots of rewards first and make more advanced ones increasingly long to obtain.

--

So, which the techniques are used to generate this frustration, and how effective are they?

• Limited action. The player is limited in the number of actions he can do. To do more, he needs to wait for some action resource to replenish. This mechanism is heavily used by Zynga but is avoided by nearly all hardcore-focused freemium titles.
• Mandatory time. Key actions, like building new units or harvesting resources, take time, sometimes several days. This technique is heavily used by Kabam for its hardcore strategy titles and is used in Ubisoft's The Settlers Online.
• Leveling. To unlock new features, the player has to level up by accumulating XP and coins, which take time to earn. World of Tanks is a good example of this strategy but we can find it also in EA'sBattlefield Play4Free.

Which technique is best adapted to hardcore gamers? I believe it is the last one. Hardcore gamers tend to play a lot; therefore the first mechanism -- limited action -- would frustrate them right away. Mandatory time is better. It requires the player to launch his game quite often in order to harvest his resources or to initiate a new construction cycle. Frequent, but short, game sessions foster addiction.

This is seen as a good thing, from the point of view of the game publisher, but I still find that mechanism too frustrating because it kicks in too early in the game before you have the time to get "hooked" on it. In my opinion, leveling works better and is easier to tune than the two previous mechanisms.

A lot of games and a lot of mmorpgs and a lot of F2P use frustration design. It's only successful for games that are different from other games (ie semi-novel) or for the main game in a genre (or sub-genre), then players wise up to the "pay to avoid frustration" intention imo, or as in the article notice Stage 1 is free and then quit once that and Stage 2 are over - before paying.

There are forms of F2P that are sort of fine, but the frustration one seems prevalent: "IT'S FREE until you become FRUSTRATED!" 

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

A lot of games and a lot of mmorpgs and a lot of F2P use frustration design. It's only successful for games that are different from other games (ie semi-novel) or for the main game in a genre (or sub-genre), then players wise up to the "pay to avoid frustration" intention imo, or as in the article notice Stage 1 is free and then quit once that and Stage 2 are over - before paying.

There are forms of F2P that are sort of fine, but the frustration one seems prevalent: "IT'S FREE until you become FRUSTRATED!" 

So? If i am frustrated, then i quit and move onto the next game.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by nariusseldon

The beauty of F2P is that a) its free

If F2P is free how come I need to pay money in Vindictus if I want outfits, high-end weaponry, pets, trinkets, healing potions?

If F2P is free how come I need to pay money in Everquest to access half of the abilities, mercenaries, spells, all raid gear?

The only real "free" F2P game I played was street gears, which isn't even around anymore.

HAHAHA,,, I wonder why the game went under????? LoL

Originally posted by Theocritus
       Alot is made of the "its only 15 dollars" and how we spend more than that at dinner or some other folly, but for me I usually played games for longer than a month so my sub was often more than the casual gamer......My last sub game was also WoW a few years ago, and to be honest I don't miss paying those fees one bit......There are so many other options out now taht paying 70-80 dollars for one game for 6 months just seems silly.

That is also a good point. It is a matter of perspective.

Gas is also "only" "$5 per gallon" ... less than 2 latte .. but people are screaming at those prices.

It is a matter of comparison, and competition. If i can get a game for free, $15 a month sound expensive.

Back when i started doing online stuff, GENIE is $6 an HOUR. MPGnet is $2 per HOUR. It is just a matter of perspective.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Onomas

So basicaly you are a freeloader, and want more games F2P so you can play and not pay a dime. You actualy dont care if the games are worthy to be mmo's, you just want your fast and cheap entertainment? From all your posts, i think im pretty spot on.

Yeh. Isn't it great?

Now how long do you think that will last? If every game went f2p and no one paid a dime, do you realy think you will have any games to play? No profit usualy = dead game.

Evidence shows that there are always whales. It has lasted for years .. prob more years. But why would i ever care? It is not like MMO is the only entertainment. If it stops tomorrow (which is not likely), i will do soemthing else.

And seriously .. do you think iti s going to stop? DDO is adding content. LOTRO is adding content. STO is adding content. TSW is going F2P. Marvel Heroes is coming out as F2P only. MWO is F2P. Care to wager any money on there will be no F2P games by the end of 2013?

We need to work on making mmorpg's better, not cheaper. Sorry this is the wrong attitude to have.

I certainly don't need to "work on" anything. This is entertainment. I consume what is produce in the market .. it is that simple. And btw, it is moot .. you are not working on a MMO, i am not working on a MMO. We are jsut consumers.

And you need to stop acting as if you speak for the entire community, you keep saying "we" "us" etc...... When in fact in most these threads, you guys are the minority.

I don't. This thread, very obviously, is about ME getting off p2p. I never said you should, or everyone is doing so. From the response, i am not the only one though.

Many want a real world, a real game, a large world, quests, story, crafting, housing, exploration, longevity, social interaction, and so much more. You few keep bashing everyone that speaks for this. Stop trying to dumb down our games, start contributing to make them better.

 

And i don't. I want good games. You guys keep bashing people who disagree, why shouldn't i express my opinion. People who want good games ... their prefernces are as valid as yours.

And "dumb down"? That is condenscending to think that games that you don't like are "dumb down".

Plus, i don't "contribute" to games, i play them to have fun. Really .. you contribute to movie making too?

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but what in the hell do you mean by whales?  What an odd term to use for those who foot the bill for the game you enjoy.  It's derogatory and completely counter productive to the conitnuation of this business model you so love.  Continue to insult those who subsidize your gaming and you're going to get what you deserve, no free games at all.  The attitude of freeloaders is so out of touch, I can't believe the industry is so willing to embrace it.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Onomas
...snip

 

 

I'm sorry, but what in the hell do you mean by whales?  What an odd term to use for those who foot the bill for the game you enjoy.  It's derogatory and completely counter productive to the conitnuation of this business model you so love.  Continue to insult those who subsidize your gaming and you're going to get what you deserve, no free games at all.  The attitude of freeloaders is so out of touch, I can't believe the industry is so willing to embrace it.

I believe they are using whale because it's used in gambling like Las Vegas, people that are high rollers are often called whales. The whales are the people that spend a lot and will do it repeatedly even if they don't win, they usually get lots of complimentary items or "comp".  I have never seen anyone use the term in mmo chats but it seems that they are porting it over. Then again, I don't read any F2P forums... maybe it's rampant there lol