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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » World is not required for an MMO

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192 posts found
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2435

World > Quest Progression

12/10/12 3:15:50 PM#121
Salt is required to live as is fatty acids for muscle energy when we're doing non stress activities...

To McD's!!
  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6508

"I fight so you don't have to."

12/10/12 3:19:57 PM#122
Originally posted by Aelious
Salt is required to live as is fatty acids for muscle energy when we're doing non stress activities...

To McD's!!

Again, the salts required to live can be found in the food we eat. It even exists in water so you dont need to add any additional salt. We do it because it makes the experience of eating food better. Same with sugar for alot of deserts.

Likewise having a virtual world is not required for an MMO but without one the experience would not be the same.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

12/10/12 3:33:23 PM#123
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Salt is required to live though.

Yes but you get that naturally from food. You dont need to add anything additional. However you do because without it most food would be tasteless.

Also you dont need a plate to eat food, you can do it straight from the floor. So basically my point is that you can remove alot of fundamental components and still do it. Would not be very fun, or pleasant, though.

 Oh I don't know.  I remember eating from the floor as a kid with very fond memories :)

And generally I agree.  As I stated in another thread (or maybe this one) while an MMO may not require a virtual world.  As soon as you provide a place for people to interact you have essentially established a world.  So not even sure it would be possible.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Magiknight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 744

12/10/12 3:39:09 PM#124
We need a new genre with a new community. There are people here arguing that COD, Diablo 3, and Facebook are MMOs. The OP is broadening the definition of MMORPG so much that the aconym can mean anything. Any word that means everything has lots its meaning and now means nothing. The OP is arguing in favor of nothings. Someone needs to write a history of MMORPGs. Maybe that will help explain how something so unique came to be something so generic.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2435

World > Quest Progression

12/10/12 3:39:24 PM#125
Yamota

It depends on your activities. Gatorade was invented because of muscle cramps due to low sodium levels interrupting muscle contractions. I think Venge was trying to make a joke and so was I. McDonalds is not a good nutritional substitute :)
  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5537

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  12/10/12 3:51:51 PM#126

To Loktofeit,

Your definition is problematic because it would make even a chessboard a world; yet, I don't think most people perceive it as such. Is Snakes & ladders a world to you?

You could argue that if the gamespace exists only when the player(s) is present that it is not a world. Some games actually do try to simulate a world where it "exists" and functions even without player presence.

Now before someone jumps in and says "instanced games are not worlds", may I remind you that they usually have gameareas which are persisntent and which do exist even when they would be empty (atleast that is my understanding). We also perceive them as worlds while we play them, so clearly mimicing a living world is just as good as simulating a living world.

But world, in MMORPG sense, is not required.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

12/10/12 4:03:09 PM#127

This website is an MMO....

 

Here's the (new) true definition of an MMO.  I decided to make one myself because everyone else is.

 

In all seriousness, I consider an MMO to be a multiplayer game that requires you to be online to play it that can support hundreds of people, or more, simultaneously.  That's it. 

 

However a company figures out how it works for them is there business.  For some, it may mean multiple servers.  Others may need some instancing.  Some may have worlds, some not.  Some may allow some soling, others not.  None of those things really affects whether it's an MMO or not.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/10/12 4:11:14 PM#128


Originally posted by Quirhid
To Loktofeit,

Your definition is problematic because it would make even a chessboard a world; yet, I don't think most people perceive it as such. Is Snakes & ladders a world to you?

You could argue that if the gamespace exists only when the player(s) is present that it is not a world. Some games actually do try to simulate a world where it "exists" and functions even without player presence.

Now before someone jumps in and says "instanced games are not worlds", may I remind you that they usually have gameareas which are persisntent and which do exist even when they would be empty (atleast that is my understanding). We also perceive them as worlds while we play them, so clearly mimicing a living world is just as good as simulating a living world.

But world, in MMORPG sense, is not required.




Please define the term "world" as you are using it.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/10/12 4:34:25 PM#129

If you look at the general consensus of the rest of the planet, a persistent world is an integral part of an MMO. A world is a persistent, shared space where players interact with each other. I think one of the important bits is that it would be possible for all the players in a world to interact with each other at the same time inside that virtual world.

No particular numbers are listed to separate Massively Multiplayer Online games from Multiplayer Online games though. The gap from Multiplayer to Massively Multiplayer is removing the divisions between players in a virtual world. In D3 it's the difference between only some people running around in the first town together and the possibility of everyone being able to run around in the first town together. One is multiplayer, one is massively multiplayer.

This is not at all what I was thinking earlier. My definition of MMO did not include a 'world' at all. However, the rest of the world we live in, with a few exceptions, considers it essential to the definition of the term. D3, CoD, etc. are out. They are Multiplayer Online games. Farmville is in. It has a shared world, with the possibility of all the players running around in one farm.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12253

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

12/10/12 4:40:56 PM#130
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Quirhid
To Loktofeit,

 

Your definition is problematic because it would make even a chessboard a world; yet, I don't think most people perceive it as such. Is Snakes & ladders a world to you?

You could argue that if the gamespace exists only when the player(s) is present that it is not a world. Some games actually do try to simulate a world where it "exists" and functions even without player presence.

Now before someone jumps in and says "instanced games are not worlds", may I remind you that they usually have gameareas which are persisntent and which do exist even when they would be empty (atleast that is my understanding). We also perceive them as worlds while we play them, so clearly mimicing a living world is just as good as simulating a living world.

But world, in MMORPG sense, is not required.




Please define the term "world" as you are using it.

 

+1  

Clarity on that would really help move the discussion forward.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Paradigm68

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 879

12/10/12 4:54:07 PM#131
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Paradigm68
As has been demonstrated here, all it takes to be an mmo is for the company making the game to call it an mmo. But that's not what we here are about, is it?  No, we're about good mmorpgs. And what it takes to be a good mmorpg, well... that is an entirely different discussion in which 'world' and 'community' play much larger roles.

That is what you are about.

I am about good GAMES. "World" and "community" should not over-take fun. They are not always on the opposite side .. but some of the older notions of what "community" means does.

For example, some may think limiting a community to a server is a good thing. I think that is limiting. I would much rather have cross-server functionalities, so i can play with any friend, or any one i choose to.

All that says to me is you dislike the devlopers breaking up your world and community arbitratily by the use of separate servers. So essentially you're making an argument for 'world' and 'community'.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19075

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/10/12 5:05:27 PM#132

The problem is you can split hairs indefinitely over what a MMORPG is, what a virtual world is, what a sandbox style game is, so it is necessary for people to provide a definition of what they mean by the terms.

This very site uses the following defintions to determine what is a MMORPG or not. (though they bend the rules pretty far IMO)

  1. The game should have the capability to support at least 500 congruent users on a single server. This is not a reflection of the game's current subscriber count, but rather reflects the capabilities of a game's technology.
  2. The game must include some form of common area where players can interact with one another inside of the persistent game world. This excludes lobby and chat room based interaction. Exceptions are made where logical (such as sports MMOs) that still fit within the spirit of what an MMO is.
  3. The game must make use of persistent characters. This means that you should be able to log in after logging out and find your character as advanced as you left them (or more).
  4. The game must contain some form of advancement.

Now, this defintion may not agree with others, which is inherently the issue here.  I think the highlighted line might invalidate the game used in the OP's example, but perhaps not I didn't read into it very far.

Even trying to define what exactly is a virtual world is a slippery slope, because people start deciding what features it must have in order to be clasified as such, and you get debates about a particular title not being "enough" of a virtual world to be worthy of the title.

The good news is provides endless fodder for forum debates like this one, which is all good in the end.

 

Arrogant, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2733

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/10/12 5:08:35 PM#133
Originally posted by Roxtarr
I actually agree with the premise of the OP.  Sometimes unwritten 'rules' need to be broken.  I'd love to see more MMORPG break the traditional molds that are stagnating the genre.

Same here

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/10/12 5:50:57 PM#134

More from the internet, and history.

The term MMO/MMOG started with games like Ultima Online and Meridian 59. The key, defining feature of the terms was having a persistent, shared virtual world. When more games were produced and the ideas for more games started to be discussed, the terms MMORPG, MMOFPS and MMORTS started being used. For a game to be an MMORPG, MMOFPS or MMORTS, it must first be an MMO. Sometimes the terms MMO and MMORPG are used to mean the same thing, which makes sense since they were both used to reference games the games Ultima Online and Meridian 59.

So...a virtual world is a key, defining feature of an MMO. Without a virtual world, it's not an MMO. This isn't arbitrary though, because that virtual world has to be shared, and it has to be persistent.

What is a virtual world? It's a space where the player's frame of reference exists. The player interacts with the virtual world to play the game. A player is "in" a virtual world. A game's lobby is probably the simplest virtual world possible.

What does persistent mean? When the player leaves the virtual world, the world does not cease to exist and the virtual world is not put on hold. Things can continue to happen that virtual world. In Farmville, crops continue to grow when a player logs out. Farmville's world is persistent. In D3 and other lobby games, the lobby is not persistent. When the player logs out of their lobby, that lobby ceases to exist. The state of the lobby is saved for later, when the player logs back in.

What does shared mean? Other players can visit the space in the virtual world that a player occupies or occupied. This is partly possible because of persistence. If a player logs out of Farmville, another player can visit their farm. The player's farm is shared. In WoW, another player B can visit the same vendor and player A, whether player A is logged in or not. The lobby in D3 is not shared, even when a player is logged in. Nobody can see player A's lobby except player A.

So there you have it. Anyone who wishes to change the definition, or use their own, feel free. However, you must now do it with the full knowledge that the rest of the planet has already settled on a definition, and applied it consistently. You may also feel free to call out MMORPG.com when they misapply the term "MMO" or "MMOG" to a game where it does not actually apply.

Quirhid is just wrong. To be an MMO, a game has to have a shared, persistent virtual world. It is the key defining feature of the term. That is, until such time as the commonly accepted definition gets changed.

As near as I can tell, the word "massively" is just a marketing term. It sounded good or it started with a the letter M, so they used it.

If you read all this, I am sorry. Blame Quirhid. It's their fault I even bothered looking this cr@p up.

** edit **
Also, none of this is what I thought when I started reading this thread.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5244

12/11/12 5:59:21 AM#135

Indeed an open world is needed. As I writie this I am looking at an advert for a "Whimsical MMORPG", now I don't know the first think about this game. But it used MMO in the title, in fact its more proper abbreviation, MMORPG. That gives me and idea of what it is like and what it has to live up to.

I am quite happy that older MMO's have been called sandbox or old school. Although they are not quite either of those things, indeed "old school" MMO's had a number of gaming systems we don't have now and due to this in certain areas they were more advanced.

We have already lost the RPG, for most this just now implies a leveling sytem. Lets not loose the massive or the multiplayer, they are a standard to determine what kind of MMO we are talking about. Find new names for new types of games, that is what gaming has always done in the past.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19753

12/11/12 2:50:23 PM#136
Originally posted by Paradigm68
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

All that says to me is you dislike the devlopers breaking up your world and community arbitratily by the use of separate servers. So essentially you're making an argument for 'world' and 'community'.

It is more than that. I also don't want to be limited by time. If i want to play with a friend now .. i want to do it now .. not 15 min from now where i can fly/walk to where he is. A persistent world is in the way of that.

A quick teleport, of course, will solve that problem.

There is also the issue of cross-game communications.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19753

12/11/12 2:52:01 PM#137
Originally posted by Scot

We have already lost the RPG, for most this just now implies a leveling sytem. Lets not loose the massive or the multiplayer, they are a standard to determine what kind of MMO we are talking about. Find new names for new types of games, that is what gaming has always done in the past.

That is the classical mindset to hold onto old ideas. So what if we lose some of the old features. The question should be .. if that gives a better gaming experience. Nothing should be sacred.

And you are not losing the word "massive" .. a persistent world is not the only way to involve large number of people. A chat room can. A AH can. Heck, even D3 can .. you just refuse to see new ideas.

 

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1306

12/11/12 2:55:38 PM#138
Originally posted by Magiknight
We need a new genre with a new community. There are people here arguing that COD, Diablo 3, and Facebook are MMOs. The OP is broadening the definition of MMORPG so much that the aconym can mean anything. Any word that means everything has lots its meaning and now means nothing. The OP is arguing in favor of nothings. Someone needs to write a history of MMORPGs. Maybe that will help explain how something so unique came to be something so generic.

Could not have said it better myself!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19753

12/11/12 2:58:23 PM#139
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by Magiknight
We need a new genre with a new community. There are people here arguing that COD, Diablo 3, and Facebook are MMOs. The OP is broadening the definition of MMORPG so much that the aconym can mean anything. Any word that means everything has lots its meaning and now means nothing. The OP is arguing in favor of nothings. Someone needs to write a history of MMORPGs. Maybe that will help explain how something so unique came to be something so generic.

Could not have said it better myself!

Generic? You mean broader and cover more variations?

Don't you agree COD is a much better game than many MMOs? If so, shouldn't you consider it when you are looking for entertainment at the same time you are considering some MMOs?

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1306

12/11/12 3:00:12 PM#140
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by Magiknight
We need a new genre with a new community. There are people here arguing that COD, Diablo 3, and Facebook are MMOs. The OP is broadening the definition of MMORPG so much that the aconym can mean anything. Any word that means everything has lots its meaning and now means nothing. The OP is arguing in favor of nothings. Someone needs to write a history of MMORPGs. Maybe that will help explain how something so unique came to be something so generic.

Could not have said it better myself!

Generic? You mean broader and cover more variations?

Don't you agree COD is a much better game than many MMOs? If so, shouldn't you consider it when you are looking for entertainment at the same time you are considering some MMOs?

I don't like COD. I think it is worse than quite a few MMO's that I enjoy off and on. If I want to look for an FPS, I will look for an FPS. I don't want to look up an MMO and find COD as its already classified under FPS.

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