Trending Games | ArcheAge | WildStar | Landmark | Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,851,246 Users Online:0
Games:732  Posts:6,224,911
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What Sieging and Large Scale PvP Should Be Like....

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search
50 posts found
  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

 
OP  12/07/12 8:55:12 AM#21
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by Loktofeit

I agree with the above poster that those are some really weak arguments, however I enjoyed the stance that it is crap that magic spells can do any real damage to a proper fortress gate. I agree. If magic spells had any affect on real defense walls in real life, banks would be robbed by wizards, not thugs.

 

That said, I think you might have enjoyed Shadowbane.

Any spell powerful enough to sunder a gate would hit so hard against flesh and bone they would be one-shot-kill spells leaving nothing but a greasy smudge. Spells are never programmed as being that powerful in any game - so cannot ergo, smash gates, never mind sections of wall!

Basic physics...

In the case of fire - a gate (if it had a significant wooden component) would have to be 'fired' for a significant period of time before it was weak enough to be breached.

Again - basic physics.

There are as far as I know - no fire spells in any game which apply a DoT for an hour or more...

Dude, you delivered in spades.

I knew the reply would be out there, but you exceeded my expectations, Caliburn.

 

I need to read up on the basic physics of magic spells, because they don't seem to match what I'm currently familiar with. As it stand, even the most basic fireball or lightning strike seems to me to be something that would either require the combined forces of Criss Angel and HAARP to reproduce or would be some klind of mystical occurence that falls outside of the laws of nature as I've been taught to date.

I mean, if a fire spell burns the enemy, why doesn't it burn the caster's hands? Or if I cast a firefield, how does it know which of the people that walk into it are bad guys and which aren't? And where did the energy come from that formed that fireball? Was it from me or from nature? What energy source is being depleted and how is it renewed? Is a fireball really made of fire, though? When I cast it at trees and shrubbery they don't burn. And if it isn't real fire, then why do we hold it to the natural behavior of fire in other scenarios lie, say, a castle gate?

 

I guess I just always made assumptions that all this stuff was fantasy make-believe stuff and accepted it as fun game mechanics. Do you have a link to any books or reference material on the basic physics of magic spells? I'd really like to read up on that to see how real life spells differ in properties and behavior from the made up ones in games.

 

 

An excellent example of well crafted, humorous and misapplied sarcasm - and the kind of niggling counterpoint which achieves less than the sum of its parts...

Perhaps you were just being contrary like so many posters - but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt just this once and rephrase.

To reiterate in simpler terms for you then...

Magic produces fire, or lightning, or necrosis, or boils, or disease, or poison, or freezing cold - or whatever etc. etc.

None of these singular effects are enough to outright kill a squishy, flesh and bone person wearing at best a few millimeters of metal in whichever game's idea of damage, cause and effect.

As people made of flesh and bone get badly damaged or destroyed by relatively tiny fractions of the amount of the kinds of force (kinetic, thermal, electrical etc.) necessary to even dent or singe etc. a gate, wall or what have you, the way in which the forces are summoned is as irrelevant as any further reasoned argument over the matter.

The point is - the other illogical stuff you mention being in the game (selective targetting, burned hands etc.) is useful to the game being playable, and it doesn't require much suspension of disbelief - nor does it engender boring playstyles.

The fact however that a bunch of daggers can defeat a castle wall in minutes rather than years+replacement daggers (think Count of Monte Cristo here...) make suspension of disbelief all the harder, and the crap lowest common denominator of the strategically sterile zerg an innevitability.

  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2435

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

12/07/12 9:04:57 AM#22
Good Post Cali

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  mothefo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/11
Posts: 30

12/07/12 10:06:16 AM#23

i have to disagree to some degree.

1) the Roman empire won against the barbarians because they were A) way better equipped, B) they had war machines and siege engines, C) were an actual organized and paid army that did nothing else but war, D) they had one of the most cunning and intelligent strategists in history of war making (Ceasar). E) they were backed by a unified and incredibly wealthy, advanced country that spent an incredible ammount of money on it's armies....  as opposed to the gauls that were mostly farmers and hunters and raiders that were at war with eachother more often than not.  

When 2 enemies are equally equipeed and equally skilled, zergs are a huge advantage. you will never take zergs out of open world pvp.

 

3) yes, artillery should be powerfull (MO has doen it best imo), than again you should be albe to dive to the ground to avoid a scorpion's bolt. You should also be able to see a catapul's rock while it's flying towards you, and siege weappons should take time to set up.

 

4) i've seen plenty of games that provide advantage for being on top of battlements. then again heavy shields should make arrows almost usless. AND arrows should not be infinite...i find endless  projectiles incredibly annoying.

 

5)....you talking about WoW? all serious sieging games have ways of closing the gates (War, DF, MO, etc).

 

6)  tunneling besically requires teraforming of some kind and personaly it pretty much defeats the whole siege thing. also tunneling took months if not years in reall war. most of the times it was faster to starve a city than make a tunnel all the way under the walls.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12126

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/07/12 11:01:08 AM#24
Originally posted by Caliburn101

The point is - the other illogical stuff you mention being in the game (selective targetting, burned hands etc.) is useful to the game being playable...

Now you're catching on.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3141

Veni, Vidi, Converti

12/07/12 12:25:04 PM#25
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Caliburn101

The point is - the other illogical stuff you mention being in the game (selective targetting, burned hands etc.) is useful to the game being playable...

Now you're catching on.

Talking about illogical stuff: I like the idea of artillery hits being close to deadly but if they are deadly, and the game has a corpse-salvage feature, then perhaps the artillery blasts the body into bits and pieces and nothing can be salvaged so there's a not inconsiderable economic danger with these weapons.

Talking about zerg and organisation: The old hammer and anvil should be a maneouvre of an "army" against a zerg that literally does smash it between the "hammer" and the "anvil",  like a hot knife through butter!

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

12/07/12 1:30:11 PM#26
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by Quirhid

I'm just going to grab this little detail...

The barbarians didn't use "zerg tactics" against the Romans. Some had a pretty sophisticated military structure a good understanding of tactics, good generals and high culture. For example the Dacians (was it Dacians? -somewhere around the Northern Balkans) were unrivalled jewelers, only the Roman propaganda smeared them as uncivilized.

There are plenty of instances where the Romans were outsmarted by their neighbours.

Did I say ALL barbarians?

As an ex-archaeologist I could trot out a fair number of barbarian battles - such as any number of Germanic or Celtic battles which qualify.

I am of course talking about what a modern MMO player would look at and think 'barbarian' - there are not that many who would start wondering whether they spoke Greek or undertsood certain forms of 'civilised' literature before classifying them as barbarians or not.

To Romans - Cathaginians were 'barbarians', Persians were 'barbarians' and for the purposes of this thread - your point is pointless.

Most armies got rolled by Romans because of their fighting method, tactics and strategies. At the siege of Alesia Caesar beat a massive horde of Celts that vastly outnumbered his army. At the Battle of Watling Street Boudica's 'zerg' got ground into mincemeat by far lesser numbers of Romans because the Romans chose their ground well and used a saw-tooth formation when the attackers didn't use any formation at all.

They were barbarians, they zerged and they lost.

End of story.

 

Caesar should've lost that battle. And Vercingetorix was hardly zerging. Being under siege or sieging is not zerging. Do us a favor: Don't use MMO terms for real life events. Or are you one of those lunatics who think there's "tanking" in real life too?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  versulas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 284

12/07/12 1:41:46 PM#27

meh... DAoC had everything the OP made points about except sappers - and even then, they had classes that could climb walls and ensure the walls were cleared of enemy/pots of boiling oil so people could build/use a ram at the door undisturbed. Guild Wars 2 tries to replicate RvR and I think they come reasonably close, but I'm fairly certain most of us have given up hope on anything like DAoC 2.

Oh... and interjecting the Romans into the conversation was funny. As if what's realistic ever has anything to do with the fun factor in video games. 

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

 
OP  12/07/12 5:33:52 PM#28
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by Quirhid

I'm just going to grab this little detail...

The barbarians didn't use "zerg tactics" against the Romans. Some had a pretty sophisticated military structure a good understanding of tactics, good generals and high culture. For example the Dacians (was it Dacians? -somewhere around the Northern Balkans) were unrivalled jewelers, only the Roman propaganda smeared them as uncivilized.

There are plenty of instances where the Romans were outsmarted by their neighbours.

Did I say ALL barbarians?

As an ex-archaeologist I could trot out a fair number of barbarian battles - such as any number of Germanic or Celtic battles which qualify.

I am of course talking about what a modern MMO player would look at and think 'barbarian' - there are not that many who would start wondering whether they spoke Greek or undertsood certain forms of 'civilised' literature before classifying them as barbarians or not.

To Romans - Cathaginians were 'barbarians', Persians were 'barbarians' and for the purposes of this thread - your point is pointless.

Most armies got rolled by Romans because of their fighting method, tactics and strategies. At the siege of Alesia Caesar beat a massive horde of Celts that vastly outnumbered his army. At the Battle of Watling Street Boudica's 'zerg' got ground into mincemeat by far lesser numbers of Romans because the Romans chose their ground well and used a saw-tooth formation when the attackers didn't use any formation at all.

They were barbarians, they zerged and they lost.

End of story.

 

Caesar should've lost that battle. And Vercingetorix was hardly zerging. Being under siege or sieging is not zerging. Do us a favor: Don't use MMO terms for real life events. Or are you one of those lunatics who think there's "tanking" in real life too?

No of course he wasn't... he just stayed in his fortification right...?...

... and Caesardidn't have to go into the front lines personally to rally his troops where the circumvalation was close to being breached by overwhelming numbers attacking hmm..?

I suggest you review Wiki again - and if it doesn't mention the massive attack on Caesars position - you had better look somewhere more authoritative.

To drag you back to the point... I merely think PvP should have more reasonable and realistic elements - at least those that eliminate or minimise the obviously impossible, and in addition, those which ADD to the fun and thinking elements of the game. Zergs are after all  commonly refered to as 'mindless' for good reason.

That's all I posted about - but it is not what you are engaging on - you are nitpicking without an effective 'nit-picker'...

Your comments - to most posts it would seem (having taken a quick look at your history) is to generally naysay and never say anything really constructive, regardless of the issue at hand.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose...

As for your last comment - tut tut - tangential insults of that kind are both lazy and lacking in any real wit - allow me to demonstrate;

'Or are YOU one of those fools who thinks because he can read Wiki about a battle he can talk with authority about it?'.

See - that took me seconds and I really didn't have to think about it at all!

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

 
OP  12/07/12 5:39:38 PM#29
Originally posted by versulas

meh... DAoC had everything the OP made points about except sappers - and even then, they had classes that could climb walls and ensure the walls were cleared of enemy/pots of boiling oil so people could build/use a ram at the door undisturbed. Guild Wars 2 tries to replicate RvR and I think they come reasonably close, but I'm fairly certain most of us have given up hope on anything like DAoC 2.

Oh... and interjecting the Romans into the conversation was funny. As if what's realistic ever has anything to do with the fun factor in video games. 

It does in Total War.

I don't think it is beyond the wit of humanity to combine the two to some degree - we shall see eventually I am sure.

I wish I had been playing such games when DAoC was popular - I can't recall anyone saying it wasn't anything but pure quality in the PvP department.

  SuprGamerX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 538

12/07/12 5:45:47 PM#30
Originally posted by Caliburn101

I have for a long time been irritated by a number of commonly accepted norms in sieging which actively create zergs and deter from tactical and strategic play.

1. The Destructibility of Objects

Here's a challenge - take a REAL great axe, give it to the powerlifting world champion and then get him to attack a barbican castle gate with it. You know what happens?

The axe blunts and or breaks and he acheives precisely nothing.

The idea that weapons (arrows, axes, swords etc.) or flash in the pan spells - withering necromantic attacks, splashes of flame or lighting strokes can seriously do any real damage to a proper fortress gate, never mind the walls - is crap.

The fact is - only tremendous and repeated impact or the kind of explosions which produce a shattering shockwave even touch fortifications.

Sieges would be so much better if you HAD to build siege weapons, or struggle up ladders or siege towers to beat enemy fortifications. Not just zerg the entrance for 5 minutes watching a health bar creep down from fifty people on auto-attack.

2. I Am Legion - the Zerg At Work

The reason the Roman Empire kicked the hell out of many times their numbers of barbarians in most battles was because the barbarians used zerg tactics.

Zerg tactics in the real world get you dead against organised opposition.

In the original dev chats about Age of Conan they talked about a system where formations of NPC troops could be assembled and 'soft capture' boxes placed within them where PC's could stand - where unless they made an active movement, they would then automatically follow the troop formations moves - which a PC commander controlled of course.

They dropped the idea and gave in to the ease of zerg mechanics.

Such a shame considering thay MMO has great combat and full impact...

This should be looked at again by someone - adventurous dungeon skirmishing etc is fine for what it is - but the battlefield should be the province of armies aka Total War - not the hordes of 'chaos'.

I zccept however that having larger armies and plots of PC's on screen is a technology problem at the moment - but the time will come...

3. Artillery

Artillery is usually far too weak. Anyone getting hit by a balista bolt should die. Anyone getting crushed by a catapult or trebuchet shot should die. heavy damage, aoe knockdown and stun should hit those around exploding shot.

Artillery should be difficult to aim with a ranked skill for artillerists to increase accuracy based on training and practice.

Fire rate should be reasonably slow, but no targetting reticle or other warning should be given to targets.

You ran in front of the loaded and primed scorpion or didn't look up when it started raining capault shot - tough!

4. Battlements

Battlements should give proper cover, increase the range of attacks fired from them and not block LOS of defenders.

Pretty basic stuff - but the number of games where hardly anyone goes on the walls and just wait for a breach to occur to face the zerg is shocking.

5. Open Gates

How many times have you had to defend a fortification whose NPC don't shut the gate, and there is no facility to shut it yourself?

Ridiculous isn't it...

If there is a 'defend x' quest at the location then the location should defend itself - not stand there with the gates open like clothes dummies with a deathwish.

6. Summon the Sappers!

Tunneling and counter tunneling. Sapper teams should be a resources - like siege weapons available to both sides. have a 10 min timer-limited sapper team build a tunnel under wall - then have it available as an access point which one person can go through at once into the fortification, or you can set a fire in it to damage or bring down the wall above.

With a slight visual indication of the proceeding tunnel on the far side of the wall - counter tunnels can be dug by defenders sapper teams to allow a tunnel fight for ownership - the defenders (if they take it) able to collapse it and end the threat.

 

Put these elements in then you have to fight smart, and zerging will be less than productive.

 

 Nice read , you do know that Devs are on a tight schedule.  So they have 2 choices , either focus properly on PvP or storyline.  They go hybrid , we end up with current titles being released.   Problem with this is that they focus a whole lot on graphics and making the water be able to reflect your image , all that time wasted on pointless graphics could of gone on amazing gameplay.   Oh well , you'll have to wait 6-7 more years before seeing such MMOs being released with proper sieges.  ArcheAge will deliver somewhat , if they push the release date by the end of 2013 start of 2014 , then ArcheAge will most likely be titled most awesome MMO in the past 20 years.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

 
OP  12/07/12 5:55:56 PM#31
Originally posted by SuprGamerX
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Put these elements in then you have to fight smart, and zerging will be less than productive.

 Nice read , you do know that Devs are on a tight schedule.  So they have 2 choices , either focus properly on PvP or storyline.  They go hybrid , we end up with current titles being released.   Problem with this is that they focus a whole lot on graphics and making the water be able to reflect your image , all that time wasted on pointless graphics could of gone on amazing gameplay.   Oh well , you'll have to wait 6-7 more years before seeing such MMOs being released with proper sieges.  ArcheAge will deliver somewhat , if they push the release date by the end of 2013 start of 2014 , then ArcheAge will most likely be titled most awesome MMO in the past 20 years.

I think the technology is almost there.

What the genre needs in my opinion is the large all-encompassing hybrid with intelligent design throughout so it meshes well.

The risks in this approach are as you point at, the development investment needed. One can shorten time with more devs, integration engineers and testers. But the lage number of subsystem teams would have to be very well managed and have a clear strategic vision of where the project was headed and in principle a map of how to get there.

It would be a major undertaking - but would, if done right, command a monthly sub and be sure in the medium term onwards to make a bucket load of profit.

WoW proved that there are a vast number of players willing to jump into one game and stay there, subbing for years - they just have to be inspired to do it again!

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3091

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

12/07/12 5:56:13 PM#32

Interesting points. I am curious how you feel about re-spawning.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

 
OP  12/07/12 6:02:27 PM#33
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Interesting points. I am curious how you feel about re-spawning.

Respawning is basically a cardinal point in computer games that cannot really be tackled - it's fundamental to the fun of the game.

As I said - I am not some fundamental 'simulationist' - I just find the more ridiculous elements as I have discussed to be immersion breaking and lazy damn implementation which could be done far better.

I Shakespeare stage play can drawn you in if well acted with decent sets. But the moment Hamlet uses his mobile to call Ophelia, the immersion is ruined.

So too stabbing a gate 'to death' with knives....

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

12/07/12 8:07:59 PM#34
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

No of course he wasn't... he just stayed in his fortification right...?...

... and Caesardidn't have to go into the front lines personally to rally his troops where the circumvalation was close to being breached by overwhelming numbers attacking hmm..?

I suggest you review Wiki again - and if it doesn't mention the massive attack on Caesars position - you had better look somewhere more authoritative.

To drag you back to the point... I merely think PvP should have more reasonable and realistic elements - at least those that eliminate or minimise the obviously impossible, and in addition, those which ADD to the fun and thinking elements of the game. Zergs are after all  commonly refered to as 'mindless' for good reason.

That's all I posted about - but it is not what you are engaging on - you are nitpicking without an effective 'nit-picker'...

Your comments - to most posts it would seem (having taken a quick look at your history) is to generally naysay and never say anything really constructive, regardless of the issue at hand.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose...

As for your last comment - tut tut - tangential insults of that kind are both lazy and lacking in any real wit - allow me to demonstrate;

'Or are YOU one of those fools who thinks because he can read Wiki about a battle he can talk with authority about it?'.

See - that took me seconds and I really didn't have to think about it at all!

I only needed to look the wiki to check how to correctly spell Vercingetorix. Some of us still read books. But nice try, bud.

As for the topic, it is useless to try and approach a realistic simulation of a large battle of any kind.

  • Sieges took a lot of time: Players don't have that much time or lose interest
  • A lot of people were involved: Forgetting for a moment the all too obvious technical limitations, you cannot expect players to muster up any sizable force resembling an army. A raiding party yes, but not an army. Not without NPCs.
  • Attrition, fatigue, wear and tear have not been implemented in a fun way so far. They are a huge annoyance  - especially if applied to players (to a lesser degree when NPCs are involved)
No I only see a real siege possible if the players would NOT play the part of a common foot soldier but a captain of a company of NPCs. But calculating the actions and positions of those NPCs would still be a significant technical hurdle. And even then a semi turn-based structure for the siege would be in order to avoid any kind of "timezone metagaming". Furthermore, the larger the battle grows the bigger nightmare it is to balance - unless big battles is the only thing you do in that game.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

12/07/12 8:14:02 PM#35

Hey guys I shot a bunch of arrows from my short bow at a giant wall made of stone and it broke so i could capture a whole castle myself!  I love gw2

El Psy Congroo

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

12/07/12 8:21:41 PM#36
Originally posted by kadepsyson

Hey guys I shot a bunch of arrows from my short bow at a giant wall made of stone and it broke so i could capture a whole castle myself!  I love gw2

I swear the haters talk more about GW2 than the fans.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

12/07/12 8:23:32 PM#37
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by kadepsyson

Hey guys I shot a bunch of arrows from my short bow at a giant wall made of stone and it broke so i could capture a whole castle myself!  I love gw2

I swear the haters talk more about GW2 than the fans.

I want to bash WoW but I've never sieged a castle in WoW :P

El Psy Congroo

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

 
OP  12/08/12 6:33:57 AM#38
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

No of course he wasn't... he just stayed in his fortification right...?...

... and Caesardidn't have to go into the front lines personally to rally his troops where the circumvalation was close to being breached by overwhelming numbers attacking hmm..?

I suggest you review Wiki again - and if it doesn't mention the massive attack on Caesars position - you had better look somewhere more authoritative.

To drag you back to the point... I merely think PvP should have more reasonable and realistic elements - at least those that eliminate or minimise the obviously impossible, and in addition, those which ADD to the fun and thinking elements of the game. Zergs are after all  commonly refered to as 'mindless' for good reason.

That's all I posted about - but it is not what you are engaging on - you are nitpicking without an effective 'nit-picker'...

Your comments - to most posts it would seem (having taken a quick look at your history) is to generally naysay and never say anything really constructive, regardless of the issue at hand.

Whatever floats your boat I suppose...

As for your last comment - tut tut - tangential insults of that kind are both lazy and lacking in any real wit - allow me to demonstrate;

'Or are YOU one of those fools who thinks because he can read Wiki about a battle he can talk with authority about it?'.

See - that took me seconds and I really didn't have to think about it at all!

I only needed to look the wiki to check how to correctly spell Vercingetorix. Some of us still read books. But nice try, bud.

As for the topic, it is useless to try and approach a realistic simulation of a large battle of any kind.

  • Sieges took a lot of time: Players don't have that much time or lose interest
  • A lot of people were involved: Forgetting for a moment the all too obvious technical limitations, you cannot expect players to muster up any sizable force resembling an army. A raiding party yes, but not an army. Not without NPCs.
  • Attrition, fatigue, wear and tear have not been implemented in a fun way so far. They are a huge annoyance  - especially if applied to players (to a lesser degree when NPCs are involved)
No I only see a real siege possible if the players would NOT play the part of a common foot soldier but a captain of a company of NPCs. But calculating the actions and positions of those NPCs would still be a significant technical hurdle. And even then a semi turn-based structure for the siege would be in order to avoid any kind of "timezone metagaming". Furthermore, the larger the battle grows the bigger nightmare it is to balance - unless big battles is the only thing you do in that game.

You know - all habitual critics like to morph the matter at hand into something more resembling what they can easily criticise - especially when the original point isn't 'good enough' to them to get their teeth into.

I have already stated I am not a simulationist - and wouldn't seek that either - merely wishing to remove those things which I beleive destroy any sense of immersion and adding those things which would make it more fun.

You talking about simulationism thus belies your purpose. It should be perfectly obvious upon first reading I am not suggesting in the slightest that the 'sitting round and waiting for the defenders to starve' part of seiging isn't something I am suggesting. I am talking about assaulting of course... attrition, fatigue, wear and tear - where did I bring this up, or even talk about something these are relevant to?

So why bring them up? <---- (rhetorical question)

This is the last I will say on the subject as far as you are concerned - you really wish to naysay about something you are making up as you go and subsequently over-emphasise by tying in one or two minor tangential issues. So I'll be disregarding it from now on.

I am not interested in pointless negativity, and it is clear you won't really want to engage with the issue constructively you just want to keep throwing in crap and then complaining it smells of s**t.

If you really want to talk about whatever it is you are trying to say (if it is in fact anything with any relevant substance), then start your own thread - do stop camping this one.

  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5185

12/08/12 7:05:08 AM#39
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Wooden gates are not impervious to axes. The problem was standing there chopping away at a gate in clear view of the enemy was often fatal. If you wanted to be realistic about sieges until the advent of guns your options were treachery, intimidation or waiting out starvation and disease. None of which is particularly fun in a game. Cities were almost never taken by siege warfare. "Realism" arguments are weak at best. It's better start from the goal of making it fun. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of ways to make losing a city in which a great amount of time has been invested fun. If the outcome is essentially meaningless that's not much fun either.

Wrong I'm afraid.

The iron or bronze reinforcement of a sturdy gate would defeat an axe wielder entirely. There is not ONE case in history, ever, where a gate was opened with hand held weapons. Not one.

If that had been the case at some point in history - people would have stopped building gates out of wood...

 Iron and bronze were so valuable they were almost never used as a complete skin except for church doors. Reinforcements were usually limited to bolts and other hardware. Vikings frquently broke into English Abbeys and country estates with axes. Barbarians did the same to some Roman forts. The first full blown castles in England weren't until William The Bastard arrived. Sieging of something the size of the City of Paris isn't practical in a game. So sieging a keep or outlying fortification, and the methods of doing so, are valid.

Sieging in games is not going to be realistic. But let it be fun and somewhat believable. I've never seen anyone do scaling ladders properly and I would like to have an escalade.

 

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

12/08/12 7:28:17 AM#40
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by Quirhid

No I only see a real siege possible if the players would NOT play the part of a common foot soldier but a captain of a company of NPCs. But calculating the actions and positions of those NPCs would still be a significant technical hurdle. And even then a semi turn-based structure for the siege would be in order to avoid any kind of "timezone metagaming". Furthermore, the larger the battle grows the bigger nightmare it is to balance - unless big battles is the only thing you do in that game.
...

You should re-read this bit.

I would have more, but since you're so thin-skinned, I'll not add more.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search