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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Has NCsoft shut down a game of yours?

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141 posts found
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5668

12/06/12 10:24:48 AM#61
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by superniceguy

Rubbish!

If NC Soft had vanguard they would have shut that down in 2009.

Speculation, at best. There's no data to support that.

If SOE had any of NC Soft games, then they would still be running today, including TR and AA

See above. BTW, I like your SWG logo avatar.

If you are a Korean then they may keep games running longer than most or the same time as most, but the reason why NC Soft shuts down games sooner than most in NA and EU is because they focus on the Koreans mostly. Lineage 1 is still up and running in Korea, but not in NA and EU.

It's up and running in Korea because people still play it there. Are you saying they should keep running, localizing and updating a game for an audience that doesn't exist? Is there a massive isometric fanbase among the NA/EU MMO crowd that's being overlooked here?

It is not just the shutting down of games, but the bad unreasoanble business practices they do. They shut down TR just so they could stick it to Richard Garriott, COH was shut down despite making profit, and they offered to sell the COH IP but under unreasonable demands, which resulted in no sale.

More speculation that it's unreasonable business practices. I think NCSoft would have a better idea of how financially sound the decisions were than you do.

"Rubbish!"

Look, it's obvious you're upset your favorite games are no longer running. I ask that you look through your list of why my post is 'rubbish' and really consider whether those are factual reasons why my post is 'rubbish' or jaded rationalizations. Since I know you're probably going to go there... CoH was making a profit. I am not saying that is false, at all. However there are more factors involved in every business decision including the determination as to whether or not something is the best use of a company's resources.

It is mainly rubbish because games really do not last that long at all under NC Soft mainly in NA/EU. Any game can get shut down in NA/EU whilst under NC Soft as Korea is where their priorities lie. Any NA/EU company would be able to keep their games running longer, because their priorites will be with NA/EU and not Korea

NC Soft are heading towards bankruptcy. The closure of COH plus the whole of Pargon Studios laid off has left with a PR black eye, and they also require more layoffs so soon = bad business practice. Surely the closue would have saved some jobs for a bit longer?

NC Soft best course of action is to sell their IPs to a NA/EU company, and they just focus their attention to the Korean market.

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6267.0.html

Fifth of all, I am not giving up hope that we'll still be able to acquire City of Heroes at some point. Right now, NCsoft is suffering a massive PR black eye (gee, really?) for their unwillingness to sell or license the IP for reasonable terms. I've heard some of the terms they were demanding, and they really are unreasonable. Needless to say, claiming that they had "exhausted all efforts" was disingenuous at best. People have been taking to their Facebook, Twitter, and other public pages to let the larger gaming community know what's going on. While I'm not directly leading those efforts, as a gamer myself, I have been encouraging people to share how they feel to other communities so that even if City of Heroes can't be saved, it gives game publishers a heavy dose of reality to chew on.

And speaking of NCsoft, they're not doing so well right now. Their stock price is currently down to 169,000 KRW. The 52-week low? That's right, 169,000 KRW. They are a whopping 52.5% off their 52-week high and have been consistently falling almost since the closure of City of Heroes was announced. While I don't think that investors care so much about City of Heroes specifically, I do think that they are taking note that it represents NCsoft's floundering presence in the North American market. While Guild Wars 2 launched to much fanfare, I honestly don't think it will be the stable long-term source of income that City of Heroes was, and there is a lot of negative attention being given to Blade and Soul even before it launches.

I mention all of this because if NCsoft goes bankrupt or is sold to some kind of holding company, there's a distinct possibility that the IP and/or code base could be acquired at liquidation or fire sale price. It's definitely something that we are keeping a very close eye on and hopeful about.

 

The problem here is with us in the West and I mean both the EU and US market.  We're being overshadowed by the Asian market.  It doesn't likely matter from their perspective that the games they shutdown might have operated in the black, the fact is none of them, including CoH, have the kind of numbers that Lineage, Aion, B&S, and their other games have, none of them.  By comparison to their successful Asian numbers all the Western market games were essentially failures.

There is no way the CoH even came close to generating the revenue that GW2 has.  In the last quarter alone GW2 accounted for 27% of their total revenue, more than any other title.  CoH didn't even have it's own entry.  It was lumped in with "others" that generated a mere 6% revenue all combined.  The next most profitible by percentage was Lineage at 23% of the total followed by B&S at 20%.  The third quarter revenues are up.

You can download the quarterly financials here: http://www.ncsoft.net/global/ir/quarterly.aspx

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

12/06/12 10:27:50 AM#62
How about a....no?

"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence

  ShardWarrior

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/11
Posts: 296

12/06/12 10:31:27 AM#63
Originally posted by Torvaldr
The problem here is with us in the West and I mean both the EU and US market.  We're being overshadowed by the Asian market.  It doesn't likely matter from their perspective that the games they shutdown might have operated in the black, the fact is none of them, including CoH, have the kind of numbers that Lineage, Aion, B&S, and their other games have, none of them.  By comparison to their successful Asian numbers all the Western market games were essentially failures.

While this may be true, I still find it silly that any company would kill a game that is turning a profit, no matter how small.  City of Heroes was contributing to profits, not taking away from them.  Just my 2 cents, but I would rather have that 6% of the revenue stream continue than just toss it aside and not have it at all.

 

 

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

12/06/12 10:44:38 AM#64
Originally posted by ShardWarrior
Originally posted by Torvaldr
The problem here is with us in the West and I mean both the EU and US market.  We're being overshadowed by the Asian market.  It doesn't likely matter from their perspective that the games they shutdown might have operated in the black, the fact is none of them, including CoH, have the kind of numbers that Lineage, Aion, B&S, and their other games have, none of them.  By comparison to their successful Asian numbers all the Western market games were essentially failures.

While this may be true, I still find it silly that any company would kill a game that is turning a profit, no matter how small.  City of Heroes was contributing to profits, not taking away from them.  Just my 2 cents, but I would rather have that 6% of the revenue stream continue than just toss it aside and not have it at all.

 

 

It happens all the time. look at when GM got rid of Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Saturn and kept Buick (the previous 2 were doing better (each of them had more sales individually) than Buick in the US but Buick was doing massively well in China - read WORLDS BIGGEST MARKET). IF CoH was only doing well in the US, a small market and not at all in the Far East, this may have been the lynch pin for the decision. We are not privy to what happens in these companies nor can we guess, as much as we would like to.

 

It is folly and very niave to say, turning a profit, no matter what is important. We don't know what is really important to NCSoft, at least I don't. I am not a fan boy or any thing like that, I am just trying to be realistic in this situation.

 

It is great that people have picked this to be 'the line in the sand' problem to deal with. I am more worried about the 'Fiscal Cliff' and the economy, than a video game.  After all you can't eat a video game, well you could (the packaging) and I bet it desn't taste good but, you need a job to get the video games.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/06/12 10:47:24 AM#65
Originally posted by ShardWarrior
Originally posted by Torvaldr
The problem here is with us in the West and I mean both the EU and US market.  We're being overshadowed by the Asian market.  It doesn't likely matter from their perspective that the games they shutdown might have operated in the black, the fact is none of them, including CoH, have the kind of numbers that Lineage, Aion, B&S, and their other games have, none of them.  By comparison to their successful Asian numbers all the Western market games were essentially failures.

While this may be true, I still find it silly that any company would kill a game that is turning a profit, no matter how small.  City of Heroes was contributing to profits, not taking away from them.  Just my 2 cents, but I would rather have that 6% of the revenue stream continue than just toss it aside and not have it at all.

If you had workers/materials/administration making widgets that returned x profit, but you could move them to your line of foos and get 4x profit from their output, would you still make widgets or would you restructure to make bank on foos?

This is really basic business stuff here. Despite how elementary most of this is, I'm quite sure someone is going to reply with the answer that they should keep making widgets and hire more people to make foos.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  ShardWarrior

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/11
Posts: 296

12/06/12 10:55:18 AM#66
Originally posted by Loktofeit
This is really basic business stuff here. Despite how elementary most of this is, I'm quite sure someone is going to reply with the answer that they should keep making widgets and hire more people to make foos.

 

But staying with the widgets would be a sound business strategy.  You would be keeping a solid foundation you know is making you money that you can fall back on in the event the foos do not work out.

I do understand what you are saying though.  There have been games in development in the past that never saw the light of day because they realized they would never "pull in the WoW numbers".  

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/06/12 11:01:19 AM#67
Originally posted by ShardWarrior
Originally posted by Loktofeit
This is really basic business stuff here. Despite how elementary most of this is, I'm quite sure someone is going to reply with the answer that they should keep making widgets and hire more people to make foos.

But staying with the widgets would be a sound business strategy.  You would be keeping a solid foundation you know is making you money that you can fall back on in the event the foos do not work out.

I do understand what you are saying though.  There have been games in development in the past that never saw the light of day because they realized they would never "pull in the WoW numbers".  

And you still replied with it... even throwing in the "pull in the WoW numbers" strawman for extra effect. How are you a NYer and this is foreign to you? This makes me sad in the pants. :(

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  User Deleted
12/06/12 11:04:57 AM#68

What is it with CoH players? I've never seen a group of people go into a tail-spin this much over a game in...well...never.

It's just a game. Move on.

  dotdotdash

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/01/11
Posts: 348

12/06/12 11:09:36 AM#69

The entire premsie of this discussion is precluded by the following reality:

NCSoft is a FOR PROFIT company, accountable to and working for the benefit of its shareholder.

I really don't understand why that needs to be repeated so often; I can only presume that people genuinely don't understand or comprehend how the system works.

If a game is profitable, and by profitable we're not just talking "makes a bit of money", then NCSoft is going to throw its weight behind it. Guild Wars 2, for example, was not the success that NCSoft were hoping for (it also wasn't a failure, by any measure), but they're pushing resources towards ArenaNet in order to bolster the chances that it can shore up the foothold it has managed to attain, in the hopes that it WILL be the success they were hoping for in the future. It's a smart move; Guild Wars 2 is a new product, easier to maintain and update, and easier to monetise.

City of Heroes/Villains was a near-decade old title that was making very little money for NCSoft. NCSoft have never suggested that it was a straight up loss making venture, because it wasn't; they HAVE suggested that the return was too low for them to support it in the long run, and that their internal projections demonstrated that the title (and service) was unsustainable. There are a myriad of reasons for the closure of City of Heroes, but the decision was - regardless of the protests - perfectly reasonable and sound from a profit making point of view.

That decision clearly wasn't taken lightly; for over a year, NCSoft gave Paragon Studious the chance (and the backing) to turn the title around. They even invested in the development of City of X 2. When it came time to look at what Paragon had done to reinvigorate the playerbase, NCSoft saw that things weren't going in the direction they had hoped. Again, the decision was reasonable.

What happens now with City of X is up in the air. NCSoft were licensing the engine behind the game from Cryptic, which certainly came with financial and contractual burdens that we as consumers are not aware of. Cryptic do not usually license their engine externally, and the license to NCSoft was probably a one off (a concession granted only due to Cryptic needing cash to finish STO and Champions). With Perfect World now in control of that technology, it's even less likely that the engine would be licensed to a new company if NCSoft were to sell the franchise on. It's just speculation, but that's how it appears externally. NCSoft may want to sell the franchise - and the game - but if they're not allowed to transfer their engine license to the new owners (and presuming Cryptic would not license the engine to a new owner under new terms), the game loses near-all value, the game assets are uselss, and the game itself would have to be abandoned anyway. Again, it seems reasonable, as Cryptic stands to gain from the loss of CoX.

So why would NCSoft not discuss this with the players? Again, business. It's probable that Cryptic and NCSoft are not allowed to discuss any negotiations (or attempts at negotiation). If this is the case and NCSoft were to openly discuss the issues currently plaquing the operation, sale or licensing of the game or franchise to another company... Cryptic/Perfect World would not hesitate to sue them. Considering NCSofts current financial woes... why would they want to risk that?

This "boycott NCSoft" venture is pathetic, because it's a venture based on ignorance. A group of people who lack the ability to consider the issue in an informed manner have banded together to express misplaced anger at the cost of a company. The claims they make are spurious at best; they charge NCSoft with "bad business practices", but the only evidence they provide for this attack is that NCSoft shut down the games they liked. No self-respecting consumer-orientated company is going to do this, but... NCSoft should just sue whoever set that movement up for slander... because that's what it is ;D

  Reizla

Elite Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 3032

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

12/06/12 11:11:08 AM#70
Originally posted by therain93
Originally posted by Reizla
~bad-list~
$O€
$O€
$O€
...and... $O€

 

As you may have noticed, I've opted to quote your "profile quote".  I see some irony there.

You won't crusade against NCsoft even though they shut down a game you loved, Tabula Rasa, that was also making money, yet you appear to be carrying on a personal crusade against SOE.  That little quote shows up alongside all 2000+ of your posts.  It doesn't really take that much to make a stand, now does it? ( ' :

Edit:  Just want to clarify one thing.  I'm not saying you should join us crusading against NCsoft just because you have something against SOE -- hopefully that is obvious.  It's just that, clearly you have a (however small) personal crusade against SOE, so why would you speak against one organizing against NCsoft?  That's all. ( ' :

HA HA HA. You got a fair point there. But when I look at NCSoft and what they've done to only 1 game I used to play very short (Tabula Rasa) and what they gave in return (Aion digital deluxe), I think they made me a good deal. Also I have played Lineage II for 4 years as subscriber and I left because the latest expansion (Goddess of Destruction, or rather whath L3 would have been) just was not my cup of tea.

But when I look at $O€ and how they ruin games with their F2P conversion by making game totally unplayable, even after having bought their game (EQ, EQ2, VG - all unplavable for me now), the expansions and all, and as Free player your characters are simply ruined, or in worse case totally not playable, then I think a grudge against $O€ is more in place than one against NCSoft (for me that is).

None the less, I think the way I feel about $O€ and the reason for their decision on F2P and crippling my accounts (and forcing me into sub if I want to play my characters) is quite the same to those who played TR for a long time, and now the CoX players as well. It just sucks when your (favorite) game gets shutdown or becomes unplayable one way or the other. Sadly, NCSoft indeed is one to shut down MMOs more than once the last 5 years...

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  LhynnSaint

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/11
Posts: 122

12/06/12 11:12:31 AM#71
Originally posted by Torvaldr

You're wrong about the being in red, but they could shut it down tomorrow.  I got my money out of it.

But you're wrong again that they will shut it down tomorrow because it's being used as a marketing gimmick for GW2.  Still it doesn't matter because there is no guarantee.  Do you realize how bitter and horrible it sounds when you try and push your bitter fears onto other gamers in hopes they too can share your misery?  If the CoH crowd won't be happy until noone else is unhappy then you will truly be a lonely crowd.  People at least felt bad for the SWG folks and they didn't take it out on the rest of us.

Burning books is not wrong, i already read those, destroying a park to make a parking lot isnt bad, im already old enough to not want to play on it. Raping my sister? go ahead, i never liked her much anyway.

Such apathy, "i dont care, it doesnt touch ME", but it was important for a lot of people. and what you felt for the SWG was not "bad", you felt pity, and thats awful. CoH players hate to be seen as victims, they played super heroes for years, and now they want to make a stand.

Killing the get away place for tens of thousands of people just because its not making as much money as they would like is wrong. Firing people just because they are not koreans is wrong.

Do you even know how many families that game brought together? how many people saw an improvement in their lives thanks to this casual family friendly game.

When you pour time money and energy into anything and someone comes and takes it away because it doesnt really like it, because it feels that its not needed, with no real reason, you HAVE to do something. Because what does it say about you if you dont?

Played CoH for 3 months, and made a bunch of friends and had a blast, cant imagine what it mustve been like for people that spent 8 years of their lives relaxing in that game, for people that met their couple there. so many people actually crying on the last day, they loved that thing with all their hearth, and NCsoft broke it, because it wasnt making as much money as they thought it should.

Im not here because it broke my heart, didnt play long enough for that to happen, but the thought of what NCsoft did sickens me. And if you really understood what they did it would sicken you too.

 

  ShardWarrior

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/11
Posts: 296

12/06/12 11:20:39 AM#72
Originally posted by Loktofeit
And you still replied with it... even throwing in the "pull in the WoW numbers" strawman for extra effect. How are you a NYer and this is foreign to you? This makes me sad in the pants. :(

Huh?  Your reply does not make much sense.  Most businesses do have and maintain a core product/service that they will keep in order to maintain a steady revenue stream.  This is not rocket science.  Perhaps start your own business sometime and you will gain a better perspective.

I am not going to say NCSoft should keep CoH going.  It is their property and they can do with it as they want and there is not much anyone can do about it.  Would I have liked to have seen it continue?  Sure.  Am I going to cry over it, no.

  niceguy3978

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 1992

12/06/12 11:42:41 AM#73
Can someone link to something that shows they were making a profit on this game?  I have seen this repeated over and over but I've never seen anything that backs this up.  There is a link near the beginning of this thread that said the game was pulling in about 2.76 million dollars a quarter, which would be about 900,000 a month.  How many devs did they have?  How much did it cost to lease/maintain whatever property they were located on?  How much did they have to pay in taxes?  I've not seen any information on this.  If they downsized and essentially put it on lifesupport would it still have pulled in the same amount?
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/06/12 11:45:59 AM#74
Originally posted by ShardWarrior
Originally posted by Loktofeit
And you still replied with it... even throwing in the "pull in the WoW numbers" strawman for extra effect. How are you a NYer and this is foreign to you? This makes me sad in the pants. :(

Huh?  Your reply does not make much sense.  Most businesses do have and maintain a core product/service that they will keep in order to maintain a steady revenue stream.  This is not rocket science.  Perhaps start your own business sometime and you will gain a better perspective.

I am not going to say NCSoft should keep CoH going.  It is their property and they can do with it as they want and there is not much anyone can do about it.  Would I have liked to have seen it continue?  Sure.  Am I going to cry over it, no.

Definitely not rocket science. It's also not anything I questioned or contested either.

It's odd that you consider their western CoH servers to be their 'core product/service' or the source of their steady revenue stream when they have had several other titles producing far more revenue much more consistently over an equal or longer period of time. The 'go start your own business to gain a better perspective' quip was cute, though. Good on ya, mate!

 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11416

12/06/12 11:46:18 AM#75
i do miss DungeonRunners but i dont hold grudges about it being shutdown
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/06/12 11:49:01 AM#76
Originally posted by Nadia
i do miss DungeonRunners but i dont hold grudges about it being shutdown

That game cracked me up. :) some of my favorite MMOs were titles that just didn't seem to do well in the long run - Dungeon Runners, Exteel and Auto Assault

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  ShardWarrior

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/11
Posts: 296

12/06/12 11:54:12 AM#77
Originally posted by Loktofeit

It's odd that you consider their western CoH servers to be their 'core product/service' or the source of their steady revenue stream ...  

And I said this where?  I was speaking in hypotheticals, not stating fact for NCSoft.  Reading comprehension goes a long way.

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

12/06/12 12:02:24 PM#78
Originally posted by niceguy3978
Can someone link to something that shows they were making a profit on this game?  I have seen this repeated over and over but I've never seen anything that backs this up.  There is a link near the beginning of this thread that said the game was pulling in about 2.76 million dollars a quarter, which would be about 900,000 a month.  How many devs did they have?  How much did it cost to lease/maintain whatever property they were located on?  How much did they have to pay in taxes?  I've not seen any information on this.  If they downsized and essentially put it on lifesupport would it still have pulled in the same amount?

http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx

 

CoH is not even listed in the report for the 3rd quarter - there is a category called 'Others' and that is were it is more than likely. In Q2, it was 2% from sales - that is all - which is nothing - considering Aion was bringing in 6-fold more profit. It was just a game that has run it's time.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3565

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

12/06/12 12:10:10 PM#79
Originally posted by DSWBeef
Oh for the love of. If a game isnt making money or only making enough to support itself then why wouldnt they shut it down. I love Tabula Rasa but im not on some crusade against ncsoft becuase its gone.

CoH was making almost $11 million a year.  Do you really think that the cost of the servers, and the minimal staff that was left was costing anything like that much? 

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2012/12/123_126197.html

NCsoft has a nasty habit of closing down western games. Look at their past history. 

Thats why I'm concerned about Wildstar. I wish they had not picked NCsoft as a publisher. 

 

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3565

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

12/06/12 12:11:03 PM#80
Originally posted by Nadia
i do miss DungeonRunners but i dont hold grudges about it being shutdown

That was a fun and silly game.  Its too bad it closed. 

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