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Hardware  » AMD Says It Is Not Abandoning Socketed CPUs

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33 posts found
  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13426

12/05/12 6:26:30 PM#21
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
One of the major reasons Apple PC's got left in the dust years ago. You couldn't upgrade individual components as Apple/IBM would glue, solder, and tape down anything and everything, even the damn ram sticks were glued in.

 

Ironically enough, Apple is the top 5 in the US in PC Sales (by volume) and top 10 globally - considering they only sell Macintosh PCs, they only have a few models available, and they still glue, solder, and tape everything down (I would say even worse today than it used to be). And that doesn't consider anything with iOS on it, which makes up the vast majority of Apple's volume.

I wouldn't cite hardware upgradeability as any reason Apple was "left in the dust". In fact, I'd argue that today, Apple is hardly in the dust at all, in the Global Top 100 by revenue, and the biggest company of all companies - #1 in the world - by total value, for 2012.

Desktops aren't what drives Apple's value.  If you restrict to devices with processor sockets (basically desktops and servers), then Apple has very much been left in the dust.  What is the volume on Mac Pro sales again?  Apparently it's enough that Apple hasn't bothered to update the line in more than two years.

iOS is for phones and tablets, and there, Apple's competitors can't offer customizability or upgradeability, either.  It's not a matter of choosing not to; it's that the form factor doesn't allow it.  It's a different market from the one relevant to this discussion.  Ford sells a lot of cars, but I wouldn't buy a computer they built.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

12/05/12 6:31:28 PM#22
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by fenistil
I see it as big deal.   This might mean that mid range processors will be paired with mid range price motherboards and higher range processors like i5 or i7 today will be paired with very expensive motherboard leaving consumer no choice and increasing price of whole pc.  Also competition on motherboards market will be smaller.

 

I see only minus as far for me as consusmer.  I will not support it.  If I will have a choice like AMD chips or maybe in more distant future ARM desktops - I will show Intel my middle finger if they go with that.




Intel isn't operating in a closed system. There are motherboard manufacturers and OEMs that will be participating. I don't see anyone abandoning Intel for desktops, unless AMD creates some kind of miracle processor, but the manufacturers are going to have to compete with each other. It would largely be based on the CPU speed, with the motherboard taking a backseat. If one manufacturer has an i5-3570 cpu $10 cheaper than another manufacturer, then they'll probably sell more parts, and they won't lose money on the percentage because they'll use a lower end motherboard bit.

 

Now those manufacturers will have to get into tighter deals with Intel as they will depend on Intel even more in production of motherboards.  You don't know how this cooperation will look like.  It might be that those producers will be limited to de-facto suppliers for Intel.   Also Intel produces their own motherboards and now it will be much easier to get additional shares on this market.

Aside of that BGA is far LESS reliable and more short-lived.  BGA is what is used in laptops for CPU and GPU's and other things.  It has failed on me multiple times in my gaming laptops, especially since they stopped to use lead and there is no viable replacement for it, so 'dry joints' will just keep happening. 

  Ryowulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 671

12/05/12 6:41:24 PM#23

fyi I got a Core i7 3770, since I don't plan on oc'ing.  If that choice is taken away from me, I'll end up paying more for features I won't be using or less without the features I want.

Overall I don't think its a huge deal, but I will miss being able to mix and match my cpu and mb.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3407

12/05/12 10:17:19 PM#24


Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Ridelynn  

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan One of the major reasons Apple PC's got left in the dust years ago. You couldn't upgrade individual components as Apple/IBM would glue, solder, and tape down anything and everything, even the damn ram sticks were glued in.
  Ironically enough, Apple is the top 5 in the US in PC Sales (by volume) and top 10 globally - considering they only sell Macintosh PCs, they only have a few models available, and they still glue, solder, and tape everything down (I would say even worse today than it used to be). And that doesn't consider anything with iOS on it, which makes up the vast majority of Apple's volume. I wouldn't cite hardware upgradeability as any reason Apple was "left in the dust". In fact, I'd argue that today, Apple is hardly in the dust at all, in the Global Top 100 by revenue, and the biggest company of all companies - #1 in the world - by total value, for 2012.
Desktops aren't what drives Apple's value.  If you restrict to devices with processor sockets (basically desktops and servers), then Apple has very much been left in the dust.  What is the volume on Mac Pro sales again?  Apparently it's enough that Apple hasn't bothered to update the line in more than two years.

iOS is for phones and tablets, and there, Apple's competitors can't offer customizability or upgradeability, either.  It's not a matter of choosing not to; it's that the form factor doesn't allow it.  It's a different market from the one relevant to this discussion.  Ford sells a lot of cars, but I wouldn't buy a computer they built.


...

Apple is the top 5 in the US in PC Sales (by volume) and top 10 globally... . And that doesn't consider anything with iOS on it ...

Desktops aren't the the major item that drives Apple, but it's still very significant. Significant enough to be ranked, even though the parts are glued in, many parts are proprietary, and yes, some models don't get updated nearly as fast as technology evolves.

Just because you wouldn't buy one doesn't make them irrelevant. Right now, of all computer retailers, Apple is driving the entire industry in industrial design and the "walled garden" concept (which I dislike, but I can't disregard), and has for many years. Love them or hate them, you'll end up using something that Apple brought to market one way or another, even if you loathe them.

Check out Samsung Series 9, the Asus K56CM, the Acer S7, the latest Google Chromebook... Where did I see all those before? Oh yeah, in 2008 when Steve jobs first pulled it out from a manila envelope and called it a Macbook Air.

Who single-handedly drove the industry to Gorilla Glass? Apple. Before the iPhone, it was a shelved product with no real application. Now it's on nearly every smart phone and many flatscreens.

Can you find a smartphone that looks like a Blackberry any more? How about one that looks like an iPhone. Yup - all of them, including newer Blackberries.

How many tablets resemble the Microsoft Tablet PC? I can think of one - Surface Pro. How many resemble the iPad in design and architecture... which strongly resembles the Newton in design and architecture, which was first introduced in 1993? Pretty much all of them.

Just like Ford - you may not like the products, but Apple's influence is far reaching, even in the PC market, and goes well beyond their Mac Pro line that is in dire need of a refresh. For a line that hasn't had a proper refresh in several years, they still seem to be pushing along just fine. There has been a lot of speculation that Apple is looking to get out of the PC market entirely - they already dropped their Server line (it was split between the Mac Pro and Mac Mini) - the iMac and Mini's are glorified laptops in the last few iterations (and especially so in the current thin model). But if you are talking PC - you have to include those as well - the All-in-ones and the laptops. It's not just midtowers that enthusiasts like to work with - it's all x86, and those are all socketed still.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3407

12/05/12 10:23:32 PM#25


Originally posted by fenistil

Aside of that BGA is far LESS reliable and more short-lived.  BGA is what is used in laptops for CPU and GPU's and other things.  It has failed on me multiple times in my gaming laptops, especially since they stopped to use lead and there is no viable replacement for it, so 'dry joints' will just keep happening. 

I have a funny feeling that BGA failed on you not because the socket sucks, but because they were just subject to too many thermal stresses. Laptops, particularly gaming laptops, are notorious for packing in too much heat in too cramped of a space. That is little fault of the socket - and something is bound to break when they heat up that much, that fast, and can't stay properly cooled. It's not the peak temperature that kills it, it's the rapid fluctuation of temperature, it kills all solder joints, and is especially brutal on small sensitive spots. If it's not a BGA solder point, it could easily be a reflow joint someplace else, or the silicon degrading, or anything.

  fatboy21007

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 419

12/05/12 10:30:57 PM#26
first people scream doom 12-21-12, then the twinkies go extinct, Now Amd and intel cosider taking about my ability to change motherboards and cpus!, Aww hell no!, get the pitchforks, gather the army, tis time a war starts!
  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13426

12/05/12 10:54:13 PM#27
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Ridelynn  

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan One of the major reasons Apple PC's got left in the dust years ago. You couldn't upgrade individual components as Apple/IBM would glue, solder, and tape down anything and everything, even the damn ram sticks were glued in.
  Ironically enough, Apple is the top 5 in the US in PC Sales (by volume) and top 10 globally - considering they only sell Macintosh PCs, they only have a few models available, and they still glue, solder, and tape everything down (I would say even worse today than it used to be). And that doesn't consider anything with iOS on it, which makes up the vast majority of Apple's volume. I wouldn't cite hardware upgradeability as any reason Apple was "left in the dust". In fact, I'd argue that today, Apple is hardly in the dust at all, in the Global Top 100 by revenue, and the biggest company of all companies - #1 in the world - by total value, for 2012.
Desktops aren't what drives Apple's value.  If you restrict to devices with processor sockets (basically desktops and servers), then Apple has very much been left in the dust.  What is the volume on Mac Pro sales again?  Apparently it's enough that Apple hasn't bothered to update the line in more than two years.

 

iOS is for phones and tablets, and there, Apple's competitors can't offer customizability or upgradeability, either.  It's not a matter of choosing not to; it's that the form factor doesn't allow it.  It's a different market from the one relevant to this discussion.  Ford sells a lot of cars, but I wouldn't buy a computer they built.


 

...

Apple is the top 5 in the US in PC Sales (by volume) and top 10 globally... . And that doesn't consider anything with iOS on it ...

Desktops aren't the the major item that drives Apple, but it's still very significant. Significant enough to be ranked, even though the parts are glued in, many parts are proprietary, and yes, some models don't get updated nearly as fast as technology evolves.

Just because you wouldn't buy one doesn't make them irrelevant. Right now, of all computer retailers, Apple is driving the entire industry in industrial design and the "walled garden" concept (which I dislike, but I can't disregard), and has for many years. Love them or hate them, you'll end up using something that Apple brought to market one way or another, even if you loathe them.

Check out Samsung Series 9, the Asus K56CM, the Acer S7, the latest Google Chromebook... Where did I see all those before? Oh yeah, in 2008 when Steve jobs first pulled it out from a manila envelope and called it a Macbook Air.

Who single-handedly drove the industry to Gorilla Glass? Apple. Before the iPhone, it was a shelved product with no real application. Now it's on nearly every smart phone and many flatscreens.

Can you find a smartphone that looks like a Blackberry any more? How about one that looks like an iPhone. Yup - all of them, including newer Blackberries.

How many tablets resemble the Microsoft Tablet PC? I can think of one - Surface Pro. How many resemble the iPad in design and architecture... which strongly resembles the Newton in design and architecture, which was first introduced in 1993? Pretty much all of them.

Just like Ford - you may not like the products, but Apple's influence is far reaching, even in the PC market, and goes well beyond their Mac Pro line that is in dire need of a refresh. For a line that hasn't had a proper refresh in several years, they still seem to be pushing along just fine. There has been a lot of speculation that Apple is looking to get out of the PC market entirely - they already dropped their Server line (it was split between the Mac Pro and Mac Mini) - the iMac and Mini's are glorified laptops in the last few iterations (and especially so in the current thin model). But if you are talking PC - you have to include those as well - the All-in-ones and the laptops. It's not just midtowers that enthusiasts like to work with - it's all x86, and those are all socketed still.

All right.  You're correct that Intel-based laptops still use PGA sockets, which are a form of sockets.  But the concern in this thread isn't whether laptops will switch from PGA to BGA.  It's whether desktops will switch from LGA to BGA.

Yes, Apple has had a great influence on the design of a number of devices.  But desktops aren't one of them unless you go all the way back to the 1980s.  How many other vendors are trying to copy the iMac, which Apple has been pushing since the 1990s?  How about the Mac Pro?  Mac Mini?  There are a few non-Apple all-in-ones on the market, but that's very much a niche market that most consumers avoid for good reason.

As for the MacBook Air clones, that's not because a bunch of vendors independently decided that they should build such a product.  It's because Intel is paying them to.  When Intel first came out with ultrabooks, laptop vendors decided it was a dumb concept that consumers didn't want.  They agreed to go ahead and build ultrabooks only because Intel paid for the design and marketing--to the tune of $300 million.  And now that they're on the market, lo and behold, consumers don't want them.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3407

12/06/12 9:27:12 AM#28


Originally posted by Quizzical
As for the MacBook Air clones, that's not because a bunch of vendors independently decided that they should build such a product.  It's because Intel is paying them to.  When Intel first came out with ultrabooks, laptop vendors decided it was a dumb concept that consumers didn't want.  They agreed to go ahead and build ultrabooks only because Intel paid for the design and marketing--to the tune of $300 million.  And now that they're on the market, lo and behold, consumers don't want them.

Your confusing "I don't want one" with "No one wants one".

The Air sells quite well. Shipping between 1-2M units per quarter. More than double the entire rest of the "ultrabook" market combined. That's probably more units than "gaming" computers sold, although I can't find any GPU sales numbers (which would be indicative of a "gaming" rig) to back that claim up.

This is the latest set of figures I could find, they are a good bit higher than final 2011 quarter figures:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57470755-92/macbook-win-ultrabook-fail-numbers-not-good-says-analyst/
Maybe Windows 8 changes that somewhat this current quarter, I keep hearing mixed reports about hardware sales versus software sales.

Your right, Intel has subsidized the market trying to create a niche (or rather, I would propose, trying to own a niche that Apple has created and hardily owns right now). Apple is not one of the subsidized laptops. So, they are all creating products that mimic whatever else is successful in the market...
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ultrabook/shop-ultrabook.html

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2864

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

12/06/12 9:33:29 AM#29

I see it as a big deal if the CPU ends up being the part to go. Your basically forcing the user to buy a whole new mother board which, if you know computers, can be a big pain in the ass to deal with considering the fact you need to find one that suits all the parts on your system correctly. Depending how 'tied' in with the cpu the motherboards are, it can provide a much more strict selection.

Its not a terrible thing either, but still its good to have a choice out there. Maybe if you order the motherboard and CPU custom together it could be nice, but I doubt that will happen.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10644

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/06/12 9:38:25 AM#30


Originally posted by Ridelynn

Originally posted by Quizzical
As for the MacBook Air clones, that's not because a bunch of vendors independently decided that they should build such a product.  It's because Intel is paying them to.  When Intel first came out with ultrabooks, laptop vendors decided it was a dumb concept that consumers didn't want.  They agreed to go ahead and build ultrabooks only because Intel paid for the design and marketing--to the tune of $300 million.  And now that they're on the market, lo and behold, consumers don't want them.

Your confusing "I don't want one" with "No one wants one".

The Air sells quite well. Shipping between 1-2M units per quarter. More than double the entire rest of the "ultrabook" market combined. That's probably more units than "gaming" computers sold, although I can't find any GPU sales numbers (which would be indicative of a "gaming" rig) to back that claim up.

This is the latest set of figures I could find, they are a good bit higher than final 2011 quarter figures:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57470755-92/macbook-win-ultrabook-fail-numbers-not-good-says-analyst/
Maybe Windows 8 changes that somewhat this current quarter, I keep hearing mixed reports about hardware sales versus software sales.

Your right, Intel has subsidized the market trying to create a niche (or rather, I would propose, trying to own a niche that Apple has created and hardily owns right now). Apple is not one of the subsidized laptops. So, they are all creating products that mimic whatever else is successful in the market...
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ultrabook/shop-ultrabook.html




Other than Desktop PCs ending up with the lack of choice you get from laptops, ultrabooks and Mac Air things, does any of this have anything to do with Intels attempt to move towards an integrated cpu/motherboard thing?

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13426

12/06/12 10:58:08 AM#31
Originally posted by Ridelynn

 


Originally posted by Quizzical
As for the MacBook Air clones, that's not because a bunch of vendors independently decided that they should build such a product.  It's because Intel is paying them to.  When Intel first came out with ultrabooks, laptop vendors decided it was a dumb concept that consumers didn't want.  They agreed to go ahead and build ultrabooks only because Intel paid for the design and marketing--to the tune of $300 million.  And now that they're on the market, lo and behold, consumers don't want them.

 

Your confusing "I don't want one" with "No one wants one".

The Air sells quite well. Shipping between 1-2M units per quarter. More than double the entire rest of the "ultrabook" market combined. That's probably more units than "gaming" computers sold, although I can't find any GPU sales numbers (which would be indicative of a "gaming" rig) to back that claim up.

This is the latest set of figures I could find, they are a good bit higher than final 2011 quarter figures:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57470755-92/macbook-win-ultrabook-fail-numbers-not-good-says-analyst/
Maybe Windows 8 changes that somewhat this current quarter, I keep hearing mixed reports about hardware sales versus software sales.

Your right, Intel has subsidized the market trying to create a niche (or rather, I would propose, trying to own a niche that Apple has created and hardily owns right now). Apple is not one of the subsidized laptops. So, they are all creating products that mimic whatever else is successful in the market...
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ultrabook/shop-ultrabook.html

The MacBook Air is not an ultrabook.  Apple can do whatever they want with the design, and is not bound by the restrictions of Intel's definitions.  If Apple decides that they need to make a small part of the chassis a quarter of a millimeter thicker than Intel's ultrabook definition allows, they don't lose many millions of dollars in subsidies over it.

Saying "no one" wants an ultrabook is hyperbole, but they're not selling nearly as well as Intel projected.

As for "gaming computers" sales figures, probably the easiest proxy is discrete video cards.  AMD's graphics division pulls in about $400 million per quarter in revenue, and that's mostly discrete consumer video cards (integrated is now mostly part of a different division).  AMD doesn't receive the bulk of the retail price tag of AMD video cards, either, as board partners, distributors, and retailers each take a cut, and a good chunk of the money spent even before they take their cut is on other components in the video card.  Neither is that mostly low end sales, as AMD doesn't get very much for, say, a Radeon HD 5450 GPU.  So AMD probably sells at least a few million discrete GPUs with few plausible uses other than gaming per quarter.  Nvidia sells even more, so we're likely looking at somewhere in the ballpark of 10 million gaming video cards sold per quarter.  That's an order of magnitude better than ultrabooks.

Now, if you restrict to prebuilt gaming desktops, then yeah, sales figures will be a lot lower.  But that would constitute missing the point.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13426

12/06/12 11:22:47 AM#32

Intel apparently denies the rumors, and says it will offer socketed CPUs for the foreseeable future.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/intel_says_company_committed_sockets2012

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they offer BGA versions of Broadwell or Haswell or whatever for desktops, or even if they made some bins BGA-only.  But that's a long, long way from making everything BGA-only.

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2532

12/06/12 12:35:09 PM#33

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/LGA-BGA-Socketed-SoC-DIY,19594.html

Putting this in after Quizzical - Sounds like people get upset over nothing.

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