Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by hikaru77
AoC Combat was depth, and hard. GW2 is just casual and more like a console game than a MMO. 

How was AoC combat deep and hard?  Was it hard because you had to do stupid finger juggles over the keyboard?  That's not deep and poor user input controls aren't a good reason to call combat hard.

AoC combat always felt sluggish to me.  The fatalities, while looking cool, again made the combat feel unresponsive.  I guess it maybe depends on what class you played.  I played a Conqy.

AoC had the best (IMO) combat of any game I played - and yes I am talking the original combat when the game launched, before it got dumbed down to wht it is now.

Positional attacks left, right, and front, positional active shielding, left, right and front. Moving around the character you could execute combos to hit unshilded  areas for max damage.

Combos were multi step (each step having its own directional input) and could be cancelled at any step!

The number of possibilities in melee combat was very high and player skill played a HUGE part in how well you played. 

But the system was too complex for your average joe, way beyond what your average wow player could understand let alone execute.

still I loved the original system, it was the best melee combat by a mile.

gw2 feels like a kiddy pool in comparison.

Originally posted by azzamasin

That would be where you are 100% wrong.

 If your good enough and smart enough you can tackle enemies much stronger then you are.

Lol, no-one is denying THAT - but you can say that about any MMO on the market.  I like GW2, but the combat system IS a lot simpler than it originally appears.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by azzamasin

That would be where you are 100% wrong.

 If your good enough and smart enough you can tackle enemies much stronger then you are.

Lol, no-one is denying THAT - but you can say that about any MMO on the market.  I like GW2, but the combat system IS a lot simpler than it originally appears.

I wouldn't call it simple - that has a connotation that does not describe the combat in GW2. I would say more fluid than many games.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by azzamasin

That would be where you are 100% wrong.

 If your good enough and smart enough you can tackle enemies much stronger then you are.

Lol, no-one is denying THAT - but you can say that about any MMO on the market.  I like GW2, but the combat system IS a lot simpler than it originally appears.

I wouldn't call it simple - that has a connotation that does not describe the combat in GW2. I would say more fluid than many games.

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Originally posted by Rimmersman

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Originally posted by botrytis

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Originally posted by Dibdabs

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Originally posted by azzamasin That would be where you are 100% wrong.  If your good enough and smart enough you can tackle enemies much stronger then you are.

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Lol, no-one is denying THAT - but you can say that about any MMO on the market.  I like GW2, but the combat system IS a lot simpler than it originally appears.

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I wouldn't call it simple - that has a connotation that does not describe the combat in GW2. I would say more fluid than many games.

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I would call it simple, in fact it's the simplicity that makes it a boring as hell from very early levels.

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How about this lets meet in - game, I will transfer to your server, I will have fraps up, and we will go to a veteran around your level, or even just some mobs I may know that won't just die easily, and I will sit there and record while you easily handle them. deal?

errr I mean simply handle them =P

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by azzamasin

That would be where you are 100% wrong.

 If your good enough and smart enough you can tackle enemies much stronger then you are.

Lol, no-one is denying THAT - but you can say that about any MMO on the market.  I like GW2, but the combat system IS a lot simpler than it originally appears.

I wouldn't call it simple - that has a connotation that does not describe the combat in GW2. I would say more fluid than many games.

 

I would call it simple, in fact it's the simplicity that makes it a boring as hell from very early levels.

You never actually played GW2, did you? The combat may start off simpler in the early levels, but that's by design as you learn (or should be learning) not only the skills as you unlock them but also the multiple effects many skills have, how they interact with the others skills of other players and the effects they have on other players, how traits begin to enhance the various skills making them react in unique ways that ultimately modify your game play, etc. It's not until the later levels, especially upon hitting 80, that you can truly experience the full complexities of it (that's when you unlock your final trait point). 

A mesmer with a greatsword, for example, at the early levels starts with pretty much point and shoot. But shortly you learn (or should have) that the gs does more damage at range. You discover GS2 is a ranged attack as well that buffs allies at the same time. Three gives you a nice ranged AoE that also debuffs the enemies, but a slight pause in movement is the trade off... yet you can compensate for that with GS4, creating a phantasm that cripples the foes or GS5, a sweeping (and damaging) knockback. You begin to add shatters to the mix, and mixing in utilities really begins to tailor the mesmer to you. 

Here's what I like personally on my mesmer. Unfortunately I don't recall how all the traits are distributed (it's been awhile and I'm comfortable with my build), but this is the gist of it.

     Greatsword with scepter/focus. GS is a great, versatile ranged weapon that enhances the "keep your distance" playstyle. Scepter adds a nice way to stack confusion, and focus... oh, daddy loves his focus. It's a speed boost for me and a snare for the bad guys. It's another phantasm. But more than that, it's a strategic beauty with the ability to hit Focus 4 when your field is up to draw enemies to the field. This has a myriad of uses. It can be used to pull enemies towards you, or even better, you can put it behind or to the sides of enemies to pull them away from you. Of course, my favorite use in WvW is the "come down here" effect... pulling people off cliffs and walls to their impending doom. 

     My base utilites are Arcane Thievery, which allows me to swap up to three conditions for up to three of the enemies boons. You have no idea how useful that can be if timed nicely. Null Field is a great self and ally support skill, removing conditions from friendlies, that has the added benefit of being ranged and removing boons from foes. It also serves as a combo field iirc. Lastly I like the legendary Feedback for obvious reasons... and a little "did you know..." added fact, the foe doesn't have to be inside the bubble to have their ranged attacks reflected back to them... they can be behind it as well with the same effect. It's also a combo field, and I've seen many bubbles blasted into mass chaos armors for allies. That's base... I'll swap out to other utilities, like portal, situationally.  Elite I like to run base with Mass Invisibility. Good for escaping, sneaking, general nuisance.  Traits... the traits really affect the style. For example, creating a clone when you dodge turns dodging from a simply defensive maneuver to an offensive one when you begin to shatter bomb. Having clones add cripple when shattered turns their offense into an added defense. Blah, too much to get into, but that's a taste of how I do it and it covers only some of the hidden complexities you can add to your builds with a nice mix of utilities, traits, and good sue of class mechanics, as well as an eye on how you interact with others. 

The greatest lack of depth ...for me...in GW2 is the WvW.Faction fighting is more like a mob basketball game with how many points you can score  with your zerg being the focus.We all get multiple characters to 80.....and this sad feature is what you get.

FOR ME...faction fighting is why I play any mmog.The lack of tactics and strategy in this feature has put me on the sidelines of playing any mmog atm.

Originally posted by Calerxes

After reading Elikal's thread about combat it got me thinking about the combat system. I've only just started playing GW2 as I've been in a few launches and they are just not fun so I held off for a few months. Now I've played a Mesmer to lvl 7 and my main is a lvl 19 Warrior so I am by no means an expert on this and thats really the point of the thread.

 

At the start of playing this game I was finding that I was dying frequently, solo and in groups and I thought this cannot be right I'm not that bad so I started to actually think why was this happening, this for me is the first sign of a deeper system than many other MMO's as the last few I've played its like putting on an old pair of boots with new laces. But unlike Elikal its not just about moving around, though thats a good portion to it, its about thinking what type of toon you want to play and then proceeding to build that toon. So for me looking at the weapon, skill and traits system and reading up on what a Warrior can be, I can already see a few different builds for my Warrior and have decided on one to follow. Now I don't get downed/die as much and I'm starting to use my weapon skills appropriately for the right situation this has been a slow but decent learning curve for me and that adds to the fun. With the added customization of gear and RNG I see finding the perfect build a bit of a longer process than I originally thought and that for me is a bonus. This is not pick a tree and bang your points in it type of system there is room for movement in how you build up your toon.

 

But it doesn't stop there, the mob system seems to have depth as well in that you have to watch for special attacks, debuffs, stuns etc.. that can actually have a serious effect on you rather than just a pretty animation. Now its all a bit hazy at the moment as it takes time to get to know the different attacks on different mobs and in a group you do whizz through content but it starts to really show on Champions and Veterens and when you solo a few mobs at once you have to be on your toes or you'll be downed quickly.

 

In saying all this, its all just "seems to have lots of depth" at the moment and it could just be from the dazzle of starting a fresh MMO with a different type of combat & skill system that has lots of options but very few actual usable builds and the spectre of limited customisation, fotm classes, skill rotations and rolfstomping will rear its ugly head but at the moment I'm having to think on my feet if I want avoid the crazy die/rez dance of completing content successfully.  

You can analize any game and break it down to sound more complicated then it actually is. Which you did here. It's not as in depth as you're making it sound in actual gameplay. It pretty simplistic really, as is most combat in MMO's. I just didn't really care for the weapon skills or combat as much as I though I would. I felt like I was also running around like an idiot. I'm not saying it's bad..  it just wasn't for me and quickly became overly repetative and boring. I'm glad you dig it.

Originally posted by Dibdabs
We get the combat system - we really do.  We aren't missing anything.  The people who think they know something other people don't are deluding themselves.  Once you have had a look at weapon skills, looked at the combos, got the pattern of key presses, that's it - I can snooze-control through the fights while I chat on Skype to a few of the guys, listen to music, whatever.  It's pretty much the same in MMOs these days as I've already said, so I'm not saying GW2 is at fault or lacking somehow.

No you can't, especially not in WvW. Maybe against base mobs you can get away with it in lower levels if you're careful. Try that against a Veteran Karka and get back to us. 

Hey... I know... enlighten us with your knowledge. Give us an example of this "pattern of key presses" you refer to. That was definitely true in WoW... I was quite adept at the 9-6-9 rotation on my pally tank... but the whole concept is completely invalid in GW2... unless you can, as asked, provide examples...

Originally posted by Shadanwolf

The greatest lack of depth ...for me...in GW2 is the WvW.Faction fighting is more like a mob basketball game with how many points you can score  with your zerg being the focus.We all get multiple characters to 80.....and this sad feature is what you get.

FOR ME...faction fighting is why I play any mmog.The lack of tactics and strategy in this feature has put me on the sidelines of playing any mmog atm.

Yikes, what server you on? You should hop onto Jade Quarry, get in TS and run with an organized group. 

Depth?Subtract a lot of skills/buttons and trade 1 for a dodge and walla, GW2. Its very simplistic which, to its credit, doesn't nessisarily mean its bad either. GW2 is a game that practically anyone can jump in and play. Once you have dodge figured out you will find combat is very easy. 

Its just not really that complex. The biggest thing is it helps make mobs feel more like 'bosses' with more mechanics being important to note, though in many cases its more trivial and its a small thing.

Originally posted by EvilGeek

 

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Originally posted by BadSpock

 

Once you go outside the realm of solo play and get into group play is where GW2 - IMO - really falls apart.

 

 

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What group play are you talking about? My guild haven't been zooming through content and it's only the past few weeks that we've focused on organised group content. For us it's been a great (and sometimes frustrating) experience, get a tight knit group who know their classes, know when to support and are situationally aware and group content is a real blast, I say in that situation it really comes together.

He means it falls apart for people who enjoy relying on crutches like tanks and healers, and who actually have no idea how to REALLY act as a group.

You arent acting as a group if one person just spams heals and another spams taunts. Thats everyone focusing on their own role and not caring about what the others do. Then when it fails they start the blame game. 

In GW2 you have to actually work as a team, and good teamwork is rewarded, being a selfish 'me me me' person is punished. Thats where it falls apart for a lot of these players. 

Originally posted by Dibdabs
We get the combat system - we really do.  We aren't missing anything.  The people who think they know something other people don't are deluding themselves.  Once you have had a look at weapon skills, looked at the combos, got the pattern of key presses, that's it - I can snooze-control through the fights while I chat on Skype to a few of the guys, listen to music, whatever.  It's pretty much the same in MMOs these days as I've already said, so I'm not saying GW2 is at fault or lacking somehow.

It is what it is. I thin the prolbem stems from the fact, and I will use Rift as an example, in many games there are just too many junk and useless skills. A.Net tried to make all the skills useful but have fewer skills. Not saying they succeeded but that is the idea. I cannot play a game were you have to use macros to use all the skills and have 5-6 skill bars in which 90% of the skills are junk or so situational to be useless.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Dibdabs
We get the combat system - we really do.  We aren't missing anything.  The people who think they know something other people don't are deluding themselves.  Once you have had a look at weapon skills, looked at the combos, got the pattern of key presses, that's it - I can snooze-control through the fights while I chat on Skype to a few of the guys, listen to music, whatever.  It's pretty much the same in MMOs these days as I've already said, so I'm not saying GW2 is at fault or lacking somehow.

It is what it is. I thin the prolbem stems from the fact, and I will use Rift as an example, in many games there are just too many junk and useless skills. A.Net tried to make all the skills useful but have fewer skills. Not saying they succeeded but that is the idea. I cannot play a game were you have to use macros to use all the skills and have 5-6 skill bars in which 90% of the skills are junk or so situational to be useless.

I agree, in Rift, EQ2 and WoW 95% of your skills get put into 1-3 supermacros. So you essentially end up playing by smashing 1 repeatedly and throwing in a few 2s and 3s as stuff pops up. So challenging!

In GW2 every skill is important, so is attunement / weapon kit / weapon swapping, and dodging. Makes combat a lot more meaningful. To anyone saying the combat is shallow, which MMO beats it? Definitely not any of the WoW or EQ clones, not TSW, definitely not TERA.... so which game has more impressive combat? I would be interested to try it out, honestly.

Vanguard had neat skills and some cool chain / reactive abilities, but that was just about paying attention, not really skill.

Conan had an interesting take on combat, but in the end you just hit your skills and then did a quick combo (that was the same every time) to fire them off. For all intents and purposes they may as well have just had the skills activate with one press.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by Calerxes

After reading Elikal's thread about combat it got me thinking about the combat system. I've only just started playing GW2 as I've been in a few launches and they are just not fun so I held off for a few months. Now I've played a Mesmer to lvl 7 and my main is a lvl 19 Warrior so I am by no means an expert on this and thats really the point of the thread.

 

At the start of playing this game I was finding that I was dying frequently, solo and in groups and I thought this cannot be right I'm not that bad so I started to actually think why was this happening, this for me is the first sign of a deeper system than many other MMO's as the last few I've played its like putting on an old pair of boots with new laces. But unlike Elikal its not just about moving around, though thats a good portion to it, its about thinking what type of toon you want to play and then proceeding to build that toon. So for me looking at the weapon, skill and traits system and reading up on what a Warrior can be, I can already see a few different builds for my Warrior and have decided on one to follow. Now I don't get downed/die as much and I'm starting to use my weapon skills appropriately for the right situation this has been a slow but decent learning curve for me and that adds to the fun. With the added customization of gear and RNG I see finding the perfect build a bit of a longer process than I originally thought and that for me is a bonus. This is not pick a tree and bang your points in it type of system there is room for movement in how you build up your toon.

 

But it doesn't stop there, the mob system seems to have depth as well in that you have to watch for special attacks, debuffs, stuns etc.. that can actually have a serious effect on you rather than just a pretty animation. Now its all a bit hazy at the moment as it takes time to get to know the different attacks on different mobs and in a group you do whizz through content but it starts to really show on Champions and Veterens and when you solo a few mobs at once you have to be on your toes or you'll be downed quickly.

 

In saying all this, its all just "seems to have lots of depth" at the moment and it could just be from the dazzle of starting a fresh MMO with a different type of combat & skill system that has lots of options but very few actual usable builds and the spectre of limited customisation, fotm classes, skill rotations and rolfstomping will rear its ugly head but at the moment I'm having to think on my feet if I want avoid the crazy die/rez dance of completing content successfully.  

You can analize any game and break it down to sound more complicated then it actually is. Which you did here. It's not as in depth as you're making it sound in actual gameplay. It pretty simplistic really, as is most combat in MMO's. I just didn't really care for the weapon skills or combat as much as I though I would. I felt like I was also running around like an idiot. I'm not saying it's bad..  it just wasn't for me and quickly became overly repetative and boring. I'm glad you dig it.

Or you can break it down and make it more simplisting and boring than it is.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by Calerxes

After reading Elikal's thread about combat it got me thinking about the combat system. I've only just started playing GW2 as I've been in a few launches and they are just not fun so I held off for a few months. Now I've played a Mesmer to lvl 7 and my main is a lvl 19 Warrior so I am by no means an expert on this and thats really the point of the thread.

 

At the start of playing this game I was finding that I was dying frequently, solo and in groups and I thought this cannot be right I'm not that bad so I started to actually think why was this happening, this for me is the first sign of a deeper system than many other MMO's as the last few I've played its like putting on an old pair of boots with new laces. But unlike Elikal its not just about moving around, though thats a good portion to it, its about thinking what type of toon you want to play and then proceeding to build that toon. So for me looking at the weapon, skill and traits system and reading up on what a Warrior can be, I can already see a few different builds for my Warrior and have decided on one to follow. Now I don't get downed/die as much and I'm starting to use my weapon skills appropriately for the right situation this has been a slow but decent learning curve for me and that adds to the fun. With the added customization of gear and RNG I see finding the perfect build a bit of a longer process than I originally thought and that for me is a bonus. This is not pick a tree and bang your points in it type of system there is room for movement in how you build up your toon.

 

But it doesn't stop there, the mob system seems to have depth as well in that you have to watch for special attacks, debuffs, stuns etc.. that can actually have a serious effect on you rather than just a pretty animation. Now its all a bit hazy at the moment as it takes time to get to know the different attacks on different mobs and in a group you do whizz through content but it starts to really show on Champions and Veterens and when you solo a few mobs at once you have to be on your toes or you'll be downed quickly.

 

In saying all this, its all just "seems to have lots of depth" at the moment and it could just be from the dazzle of starting a fresh MMO with a different type of combat & skill system that has lots of options but very few actual usable builds and the spectre of limited customisation, fotm classes, skill rotations and rolfstomping will rear its ugly head but at the moment I'm having to think on my feet if I want avoid the crazy die/rez dance of completing content successfully.  

You can analize any game and break it down to sound more complicated then it actually is. Which you did here. It's not as in depth as you're making it sound in actual gameplay. It pretty simplistic really, as is most combat in MMO's. I just didn't really care for the weapon skills or combat as much as I though I would. I felt like I was also running around like an idiot. I'm not saying it's bad..  it just wasn't for me and quickly became overly repetative and boring. I'm glad you dig it.

And thats why I created this thread as I was asking basically is it all flattering to deceive. So what makes it simplistic? At the moment I'm leaning towards it being quite deep as I'm not seeing many explanations as to what makes it truly shallow while many have gone into why they think its quite deep. 

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by muffins89
it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

What are you implying? That "themepark" MMOs don't have any depth in their combat? Please don't tell me that sandboxes have more depth! 

@OP, I like the combat in Guild Wars 2. But as someone who has spent 1-3k on GW1, I can definitely say that GW2 has less depth to it. This doesn't mean it is shallow. It just means that GW1 had incredible customisation. No other MMO has such customisation as GW1. It's beyond me why ArenaNet decided to reduce the number of skills and make the skills bound to a weapon. I find it so annoying that my first 5 skills are chosen for me and I can only choose utility skills. They even impose limitations on how you chose your second 5 skills. You always need to have 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1  elite. Did I say that you only have a handful of elite skills? GW1 had 1500+ skills among 10 classes which works out between 100-150 per class. It was incredible variety.

As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.

The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.

The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.

GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.

Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).

Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".

Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?

Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.

Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).

Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.

Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor  rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.

That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.

Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.

From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?

I would take GW1's system any day. 

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by fivoroth

SNIP!

As someone that has spent close to 10K hours in GW1 I can tell you that from those 100-150 skills per profession only 10-20 per profession were actually any good outside some narrow farm build.

The number of skills in GW1 that are simply outclassed or so situational that you are better bringing a skill that is generally more useful is mind numbing.

The choice in GW1 was between having a good build or having bad builds.

GW1 give a better illusion of freedom and variety than GW2, I'll give you that.

Example: GW1 Warrior in PvE (one of the professions that have the highest amount of viable builds).

Start by adding the sunspear warrior skill whirlwind attack. Add the kurzick/luxon warrior skill "Save Yourselves!". Get "For Great Justice!".

Axe - Why the hell are you using axe in PvE?

Hammer - Elite: Earth Shaker. No point using any other hammer elite. Then you either use Crushing Blow or Pulverizing Smash. Finish with Crude Swing.

Sword: Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are both usable. Add Sun and Moon Slash. Maybe add Body Blow (strength).

Tactics: useless outside some narrow build/farm.

Strength: Enraging Change and Flail are usable although the "Deldrimor  rank skill" "Drunken Master" or pure consumables are better options.

That is the PvE GW1 Warrior 150 skills reduced th a dozen skills.

Warriors used a lot more than a dozen skills. It was not my main character so I can't elaborate much. You are also talking about farming builds. In PvP the meta changed quite a bit. Warriors are also the most restricting class in GW1 as a lot of your skills are tied to your weap. Dual professions made a lot of builds possible. You are only using skills from your warrior profession. If you are ele, you have sooooooooooooooooooooooo many builds and combinations with other classes.

From what I have seen from GW2, there is no way you have the same customisability and number of builds. Even ArenaNet admitted that they decided to comprise build variety for the sake of balance. I don't know about ilussion of choice to be honest. It is true that a lot of GW1's skills were very context specific. Some were outmatched by other skills in pretty much all situations. But GW2's current system feels incredibly restrictive. The fact that you cannot choose what combo of main skills you want is very underwhelming. Say I want to have stoning and earth shards in my build, I can't because of weapon restrictions. You are also forced into choosing 3 utilities, 1 heal and 1 elite. I agree that not taking an elite is crazy. But you can only have 1 heal. What if I want to have 4 utilities or 3 heals + utility?

I would take GW1's system any day. 

Did GW1 have an abundance of skills at launch? I only played for 10's of hours and started with Nighfall, the game just did not grab me I was an L2 junkie at the time.