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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » How the Developers are out of touch.....

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124 posts found
  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

12/21/12 6:33:03 PM#81
Originally posted by MyTabbycat

I agree with you on wanting to explore the entire world and not being locked out of zones.

I agree that we shouldn't have a lot of loading screens. However, even Skyrim has some loading screens. If they are brief and are only for going into certain areas like dungeons, I'm OK with it. I'd rather have the WoW fly across the entire continent kind of thing than GW2's find the portal so you can get to the next zone.

I HATE PvP with a passion. I do NOT want open world PvP. If you simply must have it, then I want the following:

1. Give me the option to turn PvP OFF

2. Make it so that only if I venture into an enemy city I get flagged PvP. If I'm just wondering around exploring a zone, I don't want to get ganked by some other player.

 

Maybe this is where the megaserver will actually come in handy. You can have your open world pvp gankfest and I can have my nice RP/PvE explore the world enjoyment.

Sorry, citizen, but if we don't force people to PvP, the gankers anf griefers will howl like banshees. ^^  Not to mention it fits into the Asian gaming mentality.  Open world PvP is way too open to abuse for me to bother with a game that insists on having it in this day and age.  Thats also a factor in why Aion wasn't more of a success in the western markets. 

This game looks interesting, and I plan to give it a try and see how well it plays. 

  ice-vortex

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

12/21/12 6:49:47 PM#82
TESO has a major issue in that it is coming out as a full fledged themepark MMO in an era when high profile MMOs with sandbox features will be hitting the market or being revealed. They are basically copying themepark features in previous games and using Elder Scrolls lore to glue it together. If we were talking a smaller budget game, it could prove profitable as a f2p. However, a $300 million game which is most likely p2p?
  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 302

12/21/12 7:07:50 PM#83
Originally posted by ice-vortex
TESO has a major issue in that it is coming out as a full fledged themepark MMO in an era when high profile MMOs with sandbox features will be hitting the market or being revealed. They are basically copying themepark features in previous games and using Elder Scrolls lore to glue it together. If we were talking a smaller budget game, it could prove profitable as a f2p. However, a $300 million game which is most likely p2p?

I can always tell when someone doesn't research the game and doesn't read or listen to any of the reviews by those who were invited to play the Alpha back in October.

http://elderscrollsotr.mymiddleearth.com/2012/10/22/the-elder-scrolls-online-preview-event/

  Lizardone

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/12
Posts: 94

12/22/12 6:40:51 AM#84
 I think TESO will be popular for its persistent 3-faction PvP in Cyrodiil. The question is how really persistent will be and how much the devs will listen to the crybabies whining about it.
  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2643

110100100

12/23/12 10:38:19 AM#85


Originally posted by ZigZags
My biggest concern about an IP that I grew up with and love is that the developers are so out of touch with reality that they are heading down a path similar to what BioWare did with SWTOR. Based on what we know today, I believe TESO will havea  fate similar to SWTOR. Huge budget, exciting for the first 30-90 days, then drop off and fail status shortly after. Here's why.

 


anyone that expects any new theme park mmo to be fun more than 2-3 months at a time is just setting themselves up for disappointment.

if longevity is the criteria of which theme park games are judged by, then i would say that every new theme park game is destined to fail these days, no matter what it is.

  funcon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 258

12/23/12 10:52:12 AM#86
Originally posted by ZigZags

My biggest concern about an IP that I grew up with and love is that the developers are so out of touch with reality that they are heading down a path similar to what BioWare did with SWTOR. Based on what we know today, I believe TESO will havea  fate similar to SWTOR. Huge budget, exciting for the first 30-90 days, then drop off and fail status shortly after. Here's why.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 0:27 Matt Firor thinks they are bringing two different types of players together into one game. As a result they are mixing TES features with "popular" MMO features that two different players will be familiar with and like. This is so not true at all. Of the 27 friends on my Steam list that play TES series, all of them play MMO games as well. These are the same player base. Not two different. By adding features like, instances, short term instanced battlegrounds, factions, zone locks etc. they think they will combine the two player bases together. They don't understand that the two are one and the same and are sick and tired of instanced zones, short term battlegrounds, zone locks and lack of freedom.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 3:11 Matt Firor thinks that the worst experience in an MMO at the early stages is not being able to find your friends. So their solution is "Mega Server" where the computer decides which server/instance to put you in. This could not be further from the truth. I have played MMOs for 17 years and never once did I have problems finding my friends because we all knew before hand where we were going to play. How? Because we are friends duh, we communicate via chat, phone, text and we all know where we are going. Having a "smart computer" tell you where you are going means 2 bad things: 1) How does it know who your friends are and where it will put you? It doesn't and at first, it wont. 2) This means the game is going to be HEAVILY instanced. This is bad because maybe you want to stalk an opponent who's been killing you and since you're not friends, maybe you wont be on the same server today...I see this is TESO dev team jumping on to some new server technology (that SWTOR used) because it sounds good, but as we have already seen. It wont be.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 8:04 This is what GW2 did and is totally stupid and is what happens when you force and funnel people to a PVP area. Rather than giving us an open world we can PVP in at any level which is what we haven't seen in a while and is something I think most of s hunger for. Zenimax is failing hard here.

 

These are just a few examples of how I believe the Developers are out of touch with what the MMO/TES fans and players are thirsting for in this title. As in all previous TES, we want a non linear OPEN WORLD where we can do what we want when we want. Factions are OK if you allow cross factions to explore the opposing faction's areas. By zone locking us out and funneling us into Cyrodil you are no different than what SWTOR tried to do, what GW2 is doing and failing at and what DAOC did but was never as big as it wanted to be. Zenimax should take lessons from the failures of the past and not make the same mistakes. Take EQ as an example. As a Halfing I could venture to Dark Elf territory and sweat bullets that I wouldn't be detected and KOS. THAT's the kind of feel we want. Not some carebear safety zones with a race to 50 so we can pvp in Cyrodil and definitely not the computer auto scaling my level and gear so I can fight in Cyrodil at lvl 10. That is so carebear and NOT what TES fans are going to pay for long term.

I think it is to late. They started developing this game when WoW was at an all time high. So they took that and cloned most of the WoW features thinking this is what most players want just like SWTOR did.

  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 302

12/23/12 11:15:35 AM#87
Originally posted by funcon
Originally posted by ZigZags

My biggest concern about an IP that I grew up with and love is that the developers are so out of touch with reality that they are heading down a path similar to what BioWare did with SWTOR. Based on what we know today, I believe TESO will havea  fate similar to SWTOR. Huge budget, exciting for the first 30-90 days, then drop off and fail status shortly after. Here's why.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 0:27 Matt Firor thinks they are bringing two different types of players together into one game. As a result they are mixing TES features with "popular" MMO features that two different players will be familiar with and like. This is so not true at all. Of the 27 friends on my Steam list that play TES series, all of them play MMO games as well. These are the same player base. Not two different. By adding features like, instances, short term instanced battlegrounds, factions, zone locks etc. they think they will combine the two player bases together. They don't understand that the two are one and the same and are sick and tired of instanced zones, short term battlegrounds, zone locks and lack of freedom.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 3:11 Matt Firor thinks that the worst experience in an MMO at the early stages is not being able to find your friends. So their solution is "Mega Server" where the computer decides which server/instance to put you in. This could not be further from the truth. I have played MMOs for 17 years and never once did I have problems finding my friends because we all knew before hand where we were going to play. How? Because we are friends duh, we communicate via chat, phone, text and we all know where we are going. Having a "smart computer" tell you where you are going means 2 bad things: 1) How does it know who your friends are and where it will put you? It doesn't and at first, it wont. 2) This means the game is going to be HEAVILY instanced. This is bad because maybe you want to stalk an opponent who's been killing you and since you're not friends, maybe you wont be on the same server today...I see this is TESO dev team jumping on to some new server technology (that SWTOR used) because it sounds good, but as we have already seen. It wont be.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Fr6VF_1LA at 8:04 This is what GW2 did and is totally stupid and is what happens when you force and funnel people to a PVP area. Rather than giving us an open world we can PVP in at any level which is what we haven't seen in a while and is something I think most of s hunger for. Zenimax is failing hard here.

 

These are just a few examples of how I believe the Developers are out of touch with what the MMO/TES fans and players are thirsting for in this title. As in all previous TES, we want a non linear OPEN WORLD where we can do what we want when we want. Factions are OK if you allow cross factions to explore the opposing faction's areas. By zone locking us out and funneling us into Cyrodil you are no different than what SWTOR tried to do, what GW2 is doing and failing at and what DAOC did but was never as big as it wanted to be. Zenimax should take lessons from the failures of the past and not make the same mistakes. Take EQ as an example. As a Halfing I could venture to Dark Elf territory and sweat bullets that I wouldn't be detected and KOS. THAT's the kind of feel we want. Not some carebear safety zones with a race to 50 so we can pvp in Cyrodil and definitely not the computer auto scaling my level and gear so I can fight in Cyrodil at lvl 10. That is so carebear and NOT what TES fans are going to pay for long term.

I think it is to late. They started developing this game when WoW was at an all time high. So they took that and cloned most of the WoW features thinking this is what most players want just like SWTOR did.

With Matt Firor running the show, if they clone anything it will be DAOC, not WoW.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10645

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/23/12 11:29:12 AM#88


Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by MyTabbycat

 
As for the faction locking, there is a reason behind it that does make sense. Sure, we don't like it because it's TES and we expect to be able to explore everythng we can. But as someone pointed out somewhere else, even in the stand alone games, with the exception of Arena, we were only given one map to explore (not including any expansions).
Problem is, we still only have 1 map to explore, but parts of it are blocked due to faction. The whole argument about being able to only explore skyrim when playing skyrim etc... is redundent. In skyrim the area of skyrim was the full extent of the map...and you could go anywhere within that fully. InTESO the full extent of the map is not available to your character...you have to have at least 3 characters to explore the extent of the game.

I don't don't mind if they make it next to impossible to explore another factions homeland but I want the FREEDOM to CHOOSE if I go there, not some artificial blocking mechanism. That just isn't a TES game. And I could care less if the argument is "well TESO is an MMO" because the reason we cannot explore the extent of the map on 1 character is due to a design choice, not because it isn't available in the game. These other lands exist, my character knows they exist, but they simply cannot go tehre because there is an invisible wall blocking the way.

It really is, for me the main stumbling point in getting the game. Time will tell if I can accept it, I love playing alts afterall so perhaps it is going to eventually be of with me, but the problem I have currently is that I am FORCED into something that really isn't neccessay and really isn't in the spirit of a TES game. MMO or not they have chosen to put this limitation in, it isn't a case of "not enough time to put these other areas into the game" because they are in the game, we just cannot go there.




Having a homeland where players from other factions cannot get in is more like the single player games than not. They've taken the single player experience and added additional players in the same area who are pretty much doing the same things. Having players from other factions would deviate from the single player game experience.

Do players want something that is more like or more different than the single player experience? If players want something more like the single player experience, then locking the homelands is more like the single player experience.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Zalmon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 323

12/23/12 11:43:24 AM#89
I am not an armchair game dveloper like OP so i won't say that they are out of touch. However, if TESO turned out to be bad game i don't think it would be because they didn't copy Skyrim to its very core. Which by the way can never be turned into a successful sandbox because the part of its real charm comes from the fact that it is a single player game.
  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

12/24/12 10:13:02 PM#90
Originally posted by lizardbones

The problem here is you see things from your perspective and the developer is looking at things from the perspective of a million or more people. The million or more people heavily outweighs any individual or group.

Many games coming out have had similar information and failed.  I think that's part of the problem, they are designing a game around what they think players want.  What makes a game a huge success is giving people what they didn't know they want.

  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

12/25/12 7:03:15 AM#91
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by lizardbones

The problem here is you see things from your perspective and the developer is looking at things from the perspective of a million or more people. The million or more people heavily outweighs any individual or group.

Many games coming out have had similar information and failed.  I think that's part of the problem, they are designing a game around what they think players want.  What makes a game a huge success is giving people what they didn't know they want.

That is very, VERY risky.  When one is risking tens of millions (if not a hundred or more) (of other peoples money), thats just NOT a good risk to be taking.  Which is why its seldom done.  What makes a game a huge success is the right dynamics at the right time, directed at the right audience.  Couple that with a high level of polish, and you have a much better chance of success.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

12/25/12 9:22:06 AM#92
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by sapphen

Many games coming out have had similar information and failed.  I think that's part of the problem, they are designing a game around what they think players want.  What makes a game a huge success is giving people what they didn't know they want.

That is very, VERY risky.  When one is risking tens of millions (if not a hundred or more) (of other peoples money), thats just NOT a good risk to be taking.  Which is why its seldom done.  What makes a game a huge success is the right dynamics at the right time, directed at the right audience.  Couple that with a high level of polish, and you have a much better chance of success.

What makes you think players want millions and millions of dollars to be spent?  Risk or not from what I seen your notion of safe is just as risky.

EDIT IN:  I know it takes a lot of money to actually make an MMO.   What I'm saying is how much of that investment is important to the development of the project (ex. full voice acting in SWTOR was a nice touch but was it worth it's cost?).

I don't feel there is a right trick at a right time to be successful.  Anyone funding a MMO is taking on a huge amount of risk from the start - and from the previous AAA releases we've seen people don't want what developers/producers/investors think they do.

  03cobradude

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/07
Posts: 11

12/25/12 9:35:17 AM#93
Out of all mmo's this is the one that should have open world pvp and it's doesn't appear to be that way. I thought Guild  Wars was going to be great and it was for a while. The pvp system just lacked that feel of " Am I going to get raped while leveling today?" or "I'm bored, let's go gank some people". I guess I just want a true open world pvp game where you have some sort of an actual loss from dying. I really liked Vangaurds system that they had in before that ship sunk. Here's to hoping there massive pvp zone will be fun enough to keep playing in unlike guild wars. Maybe there is hope for me, I heard the new Everquest is going to be a sandbox like game so let's hope they don't duck that one up.
  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3567

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

12/25/12 10:19:05 AM#94
Originally posted by 03cobradude
Out of all mmo's this is the one that should have open world pvp and it's doesn't appear to be that way. I thought Guild  Wars was going to be great and it was for a while. The pvp system just lacked that feel of " Am I going to get raped while leveling today?" or "I'm bored, let's go gank some people". I guess I just want a true open world pvp game where you have some sort of an actual loss from dying. I really liked Vangaurds system that they had in before that ship sunk. Here's to hoping there massive pvp zone will be fun enough to keep playing in unlike guild wars. Maybe there is hope for me, I heard the new Everquest is going to be a sandbox like game so let's hope they don't duck that one up.

If you want open world FFA PvP, then you should try Mortal online or Darkfall. Both are full time FFA full loot gankfests.  Or you could try Planetside2, thats full time PvP and nothing but PvP.

  User Deleted
12/25/12 11:26:28 AM#95
Originally posted by koboldfodder

Here is how TESO should have been developed.

-Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

-Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

-Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

-All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

I would tend to agree with this.

TES improved once the one of the creatives was recruited from the Runequest pen and paper game and so such a start would make more sense with this style of content. Joining factions, guilds and cults was a key part of the game.

Any "locks" should be due to cultural reasons for someone people simply will not trusted in certain areas unless they can proved themselves, join factions and/or justify their exceptional treatment.

Also ideally the game would should remember you, rather than just the quest characters. CO's habit of making random PCs thank you for saving the world in the tutorial really goes a long way in making you feel part of the setting.

I can take or leave PVP but good gameplay is always valued.

  wooflikeabear

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/04/13
Posts: 4

1/04/13 1:08:17 PM#96

I dunno OP, I have several friends that I have gotten to know on steam that haven't played MMOs before but who are hooked on Skyrim and had no idea ESO was a thing until I told them and now they are planning on giving it a try when it comes out.

I also like the idea of the megaserver because invariably there will be people I've met in other games and lost touch with that I might run into on the game forums or in game and will now be able to group with because of the megaserver - whereas in isolated servers they or I would have to reroll on a new server to be able to team with each other.

So I have to give Matt Firor some credit for what he's doing - he does seem to listen to the player base and learns from his mistakes *cough* Trials of Atlantis *cough*.. I'm also guessing megaservers will address the issue of server underpopulation which prevented so many people from being able to complete their trials because their server didn't have enough people to throw at it.

What actually worries me about this game is the PvP dev - Brian Wheeler - wasn't he the guy responsible for  the failparade that Warhammer PvP turned out to be? I just hope he gets kept on a tight leash.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10645

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/04/13 1:18:00 PM#97


Originally posted by wooflikeabear
I dunno OP, I have several friends that I have gotten to know on steam that haven't played MMOs before but who are hooked on Skyrim and had no idea ESO was a thing until I told them and now they are planning on giving it a try when it comes out.

I also like the idea of the megaserver because invariably there will be people I've met in other games and lost touch with that I might run into on the game forums or in game and will now be able to group with because of the megaserver - whereas in isolated servers they or I would have to reroll on a new server to be able to team with each other.

So I have to give Matt Firor some credit for what he's doing - he does seem to listen to the player base and learns from his mistakes *cough* Trials of Atlantis *cough*.. I'm also guessing megaservers will address the issue of server underpopulation which prevented so many people from being able to complete their trials because their server didn't have enough people to throw at it.

What actually worries me about this game is the PvP dev - Brian Wheeler - wasn't he the guy responsible for  the failparade that Warhammer PvP turned out to be? I just hope he gets kept on a tight leash.




I thought the PvP was the only reason to even play War? The only nice things I've heard about War was about the PvP.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  wooflikeabear

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/04/13
Posts: 4

1/04/13 3:18:03 PM#98
Originally posted by lizardbones


I thought the PvP was the only reason to even play War? The only nice things I've heard about War was about the PvP.

 

 

Getting stuck on objects and dying if u tried to move, CC immunities not working right, one class being able to wipe out warbands, playing fort raid tag while avoiding enemy players when trying to take castles to farm PvP loot and points, yeah, the PvP was pretty horrible. I don't think I've ever played a game before where incentives were set up to avoid actual fights and just farm PvP NPCs and objectives. I think WoW and DAOC had more polished PvP. Heck, I'm actually enjoying the side of PvP I get in Rift right now just because it isn't bug ridden like WAR was.

The only positive thing about WAR for me was that it was big on the concept of public quests which I  thought were awesome for impromptu groupings and getting to know people.

 

  Jumdor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/08
Posts: 62

Triforce of Wisdom: "Orderly ways do not make one brave, and neatness does not a kingdom save."

1/06/13 8:18:32 AM#99

 

 I'd like to make a comment about immersion. We have many here that want to have a reason to think that there is no reason the two styles can't blend. Well I know one person already said that Skyrim came off as boring and that person felt alone with stupid NPCs. Consider that in an online version of this game we get to experience the fun of seeing people with names like "HeWhoBakesCookies" or "CaptainDunkem" running within our well developed fantasy world. 

 

 There are no alternate servers to have an RP server option. So your blended right in there with "BobJazzHandsFranks" wielding his glass ax with lightning enchant or "ToxicMittens" and her dual fire swords. Games like ES are heavily about immersion because it is you alone in that world and so it becomes a personal world. Where a well thought out name like "Taeris Wevizell" can be whatever he/she feels they should be or have their name mean whatever lore you want it to. In an online game if there is no separation you can be standing right next to any number of people who don't give one iota about anything other than wracking up kills with a name like "NanaPuddinFlower" or "GoatFinger" who took way too much time considering the best way to grief someone today. 

 

 Personally I could give a crap I saw the vid and know it's not for me. If it goes F2P I can't say I won't wander around for thirty to forty minutes looking at the scenery while listening to music and avoiding hot spots of murderous foam mouthed weekend warriors bent on blood and carnage of anything not them or their ilk. That's my two cents about the game. 

 

 I still think it would have been just as easy for Bethesda to develop a co-op aspect onto Skyrim. Which I would be just as willing to pay forty or fifty bucks for such DLC. Which I would also easily pitch to my friends to get as well. You want your MMO with ES lore you go right ahead. I'm stuck with the ten foot pole people I'll be using that pole to keep pushing it away if it floats towards me.

 

 Oh, and also someone talked about there are limitations to what is possible with MMOs. Yeah tell that to the people who made Mortal Online. Aside from it being ruled by rude asses or ran by a rich boy or whatever. You can't deny it was pretty darn close to an online Elder Scrolls game. Not perfect I give that, but still pretty freakin close. It is possible in every way. It like anything else is dependent on the money, time, and passion invested in it. It is possible but not by a group of people wanting to sell you Nike brand on Skecher made shoes. 

 

 No I really have no opinion about either shoe brand's actual quality. To anyone wanting to tell me or anyone else to grow up about a heated opinion about a game not even out yet. It's no different than you seeing a person coughing and sputtering as they walk into the kitchen where your food is being made. He's probably just the dish washer, but it doesn't help clear the idea you shape in your head of a juicy cheese burger coming out with a mucus gob where your mustard should be. You pointing out my immature attitude with a strong opinion does you no good other than show your lack of maturity by being petty over an opinion. (Like I talked about your mother or something and you have to defend her.)

 

Please note there are no exclamation marks used. In no way have I written this in anger. It is all based on opinion. If my spelling or grammar sucks then take the time and correct it for me and repost it. Otherwise ignore the minor faults and read what I wrote not how well I wrote it. 

 

 In truth and honesty I hope you all have wonderful days or nights wherever you might reside and be safe. Consideration I have even for my enemies. 


"Love can be innocent and can be sweet, but sometimes about as nice as rotting meat."

  MyTabbycat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 302

1/06/13 10:49:23 AM#100

I think part of your problems will be fixed by the whole Megaserver thing. You fill out a questionair. You specify you want to play with other role players, possibly even select an age range, say you want to play with certain friends. Or say you want to mainly solo the game. It's going to place you with other like minded folks. So if you want to RP, you are probably not going to be in the same phase as Whatabout Bob.

Whether you play the game or not and honestly what your opinion is of Elder Scrolls Online doesn't affect my decision to buy the game. Just like my disagreeing with you doesn't change what you think about the game. To each his own.

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