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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why PVP scares some people?

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256 posts found
  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  12/03/12 12:54:52 AM#61
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world.

I don't agree with your first sentence.

MMOs that try to simulate a "realistic" political and social enviroment needs open pvp. PVP with predefined factions took from the players the control of who is friend/ally or enemy, which damages the political/social/diplomatic challenge. Sandboxes have much resources in the OW that need to be disputed. They could do a "siege system" to all of them (including a mob spot), but the amount of disputable resources is so huge that is easier let the pvp open and free. :D

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  12/03/12 1:10:08 AM#62
Originally posted by Robokapp

my view of ganking - from the gankee's viewpoint since I dont gank myself is this:

 

it's fine.

 

I'm a levl 20. a level 90 who's at war with me appears in front of me. WHAT COULD REALISTICALLY HAPPEN IN THIS SCENARIO except me ending up dead ?

 

He's stronger than me, it's my job to avoid him. I failed. He has earned the right to kill me. In NOD's words...

 

Peace Through Power.

The idea of a character lv decreasing to fits each zone pleases me. A other good idea is creating a system that allows two lv 20 players fight one lv 40 with equal chances. The mmos today has a system where twenty lv 10 cant kill one lv 50, this is illogical and bad.

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4530

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/03/12 1:15:47 AM#63

the 'level problem' i  agree with. your solution, however I do not.

 

if a level 20 can kill a level 50 because you retard-down the level 50...that's insulting to the level 50.

 

i don't believe in levels, but if you're going to have levels you got to go through with them.

 

if a level 20 can kill a level 50 player, can he also kill a level 50 spider ? if NO, then WTF is this? if yes, why have levels ?

 

if the balance of power is vastly different in pve than in pvp, you're creating a very lifeless world. because PvE should at least somewhat emulate player interaction. you cant make a level 50 warrior-player killable but a level 50 bandit-npc 3 times stronger. because the level 50 player can kill the level 50 bandit. it makes no sense even in fantasy. it's too distracting.

 

 

  SvendSvin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/05
Posts: 9

12/03/12 1:23:41 AM#64
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just  "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting.

Unchallenging?? Really??

PVE can be every bit as challenging as PVP can be..  Just like knitting can be challenging.. I dare you to knit a sweater with a 99% accurate WOW logo and tell me it isn't challenging.. It's all about what kind of a challenge you want!!

 

But what i really got from reading your post is that you are calling PVE'rs lame, docile cattle, who can do nothing except eat whatever is put in front of them.. While the PVP'rs are the real gamers, who got the skills and can make/get their on rewards..

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like another way to boost the PVP epeen to me..

- SvendSvin

  calranthe

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/05
Posts: 361

12/03/12 1:24:45 AM#65

PVP in games really cannot be compared to real life, while we are a warlike species with a varnish of civility real life death and murder consequences and issues both moral and psychological no one should even try to call any pvp system in any game realistic.

PVP in most games is not and never can be balanced developers just can not come up with a balanced system because pvpers also fall into different categories like the below example

Honor: those who prefer 1v1, who are all about the challenge and skill of taking down an equal oponent, they would never break into your house or fight you while you sleep/eat/drink/craft, it is all about good fights, hell those kind of pvpers are the ones who will give you advice afterwards on how better to fight them.

Unfortunately as we all know the above type of pvper is in the absolute minority, no pvp game has ever been able to counter the "griefer" the "bully" the "zerg" because it is a way of thinking not something you can put rules in place to stop.

Games have no consquence for killing another player, you don't log of and wonder about his family, you don't wash your hands 50 times to try and remove the itchiness and you damn well don't see that person die every time you close your eyes.

In games it is just a game and that sadly to a lot of people allows them to act as shitty and nasty as possible without ever feeling it, pvp is like the ultimate outlet for people like that and it is why a lot of people avoid pvp games.

Understand though, I am not scared of pvp indifferent to it, I enjoy pvp myself in EVE but I do understand why so many do not enjoy it.

 

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  12/03/12 1:50:46 AM#66
Originally posted by Robokapp

the 'level problem' i  agree with. your solution, however I do not.

 

if a level 20 can kill a level 50 because you retard-down the level 50...that's insulting to the level 50.

 

i don't believe in levels, but if you're going to have levels you got to go through with them.

 

if a level 20 can kill a level 50 player, can he also kill a level 50 spider ? if NO, then WTF is this? if yes, why have levels ?

 

if the balance of power is vastly different in pve than in pvp, you're creating a very lifeless world. because PvE should at least somewhat emulate player interaction. you cant make a level 50 warrior-player killable but a level 50 bandit-npc 3 times stronger. because the level 50 player can kill the level 50 bandit. it makes no sense even in fantasy. it's too distracting.

 

 

You made a complete mess and mixed things, lets by parts:

Is ilogical a lv 20 can kill a lv 50, but is logical THREE lv 20 kill ONE lv 50. The idea is to allow a "zerg" of low lvs to have good chances againts one or few high lvs. This makes complete sense. The union makes the strenght.

The lv fitting to the zone would only decrease, never increase. A low lv couldn't enter a higher zone and have his lv increased, but a high lv would have his decreased if enters a lower zone. This would keep the progression and need to level characters while avoiding the unfair gank. What a high lv wants to do in a low lv zone?

 

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1813

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

12/03/12 1:57:40 AM#67

that's why there are pvp and pve servers.

 

people join pvp servers tho and then complain about being killed. prob explained. as always: pebiac.

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  12/03/12 2:01:10 AM#68
Originally posted by SvendSvin
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just  "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting.

Unchallenging?? Really??

PVE can be every bit as challenging as PVP can be..  Just like knitting can be challenging.. I dare you to knit a sweater with a 99% accurate WOW logo and tell me it isn't challenging.. It's all about what kind of a challenge you want!!

Knitting is not challenging, is only toilsome and prolonged. The only challenge is on learning, after this, some people can knit with closed eyes.

 

 

 

But what i really got from reading your post is that you are calling PVE'rs lame, docile cattle, who can do nothing except eat whatever is put in front of them.. While the PVP'rs are the real gamers, who got the skills and can make/get their on rewards..

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like another way to boost the PVP epeen to me..

 

In most cases, PVP is harder and challenging than PVE, but not all people wants challenge in a mmo or any game, and i respect that.

But the challenge dont comes only from the pvp fight itself, it also comes from political, social, diplomatic and economic enviromnent that a mmo full of disputable resources allows.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  12/03/12 2:02:52 AM#69
Originally posted by Thane

that's why there are pvp and pve servers.

 

people join pvp servers tho and then complain about being killed. prob explained. as always: pebiac.

That is other thing that i dont get to understand.

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  toddze

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 2195

I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.

12/03/12 2:06:04 AM#70

I disagree with # 2

PVP in most MMO's is 70% gear stats 20% player skill, and 10% class. I love PVP but I prefer my PVP in the form of FPS games, where there is real tacticas involved. Which is another beef I have with MMO pvp, its all hotbar spamming. MMO PVP is nothing but 1 big joke.

Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  12/03/12 2:09:01 AM#71
Originally posted by calranthe

PVP in games really cannot be compared to real life, while we are a warlike species with a varnish of civility real life death and murder consequences and issues both moral and psychological no one should even try to call any pvp system in any game realistic.

PVP in most games is not and never can be balanced developers just can not come up with a balanced system because pvpers also fall into different categories like the below example

Honor: those who prefer 1v1, who are all about the challenge and skill of taking down an equal oponent, they would never break into your house or fight you while you sleep/eat/drink/craft, it is all about good fights, hell those kind of pvpers are the ones who will give you advice afterwards on how better to fight them.

Unfortunately as we all know the above type of pvper is in the absolute minority, no pvp game has ever been able to counter the "griefer" the "bully" the "zerg" because it is a way of thinking not something you can put rules in place to stop.

Games have no consquence for killing another player, you don't log of and wonder about his family, you don't wash your hands 50 times to try and remove the itchiness and you damn well don't see that person die every time you close your eyes.

In games it is just a game and that sadly to a lot of people allows them to act as shitty and nasty as possible without ever feeling it, pvp is like the ultimate outlet for people like that and it is why a lot of people avoid pvp games.

Understand though, I am not scared of pvp indifferent to it, I enjoy pvp myself in EVE but I do understand why so many do not enjoy it.

 

 

Virtual world will never be like real life, even with permadeath, but i cant see how this prevents ANY type of deterrence to grief.

 

Is very simple: penaltys should be proportional to the crimes. In real life, a murderer can be killed or jailed to life. In a mmo, a kill make the victim lose xp, itens or time (ie: time), so the penalty is make the killer lose time too (imprisonement, loss of itens or xp).

That is sufficiente to zero the griefs? no, but is sufficient to avoid its ocurrence in a lamount that damages the game. Same in real life penaltys.

 

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  12/03/12 2:12:56 AM#72
Originally posted by toddze

I disagree with # 2

PVP in most MMO's is 70% gear stats 20% player skill, and 10% class. I love PVP but I prefer my PVP in the form of FPS games, where there is real tacticas involved. Which is another beef I have with MMO pvp, its all hotbar spamming. MMO PVP is nothing but 1 big joke.

In the second line you can read "in equal conditions", and the same applies to PVE, but people dont complain about it.

In equal conditions to the fighters involved (stats provided by lv or gear), pvp is much more harder and complex than PVE.

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  12/03/12 2:16:37 AM#73

If mmo pvp is a joke, only with hotbar spamming, what to say about the pve!!!!   LOL

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  zimboy69

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/08
Posts: 348

12/03/12 2:25:03 AM#74

full loot pvp  is amazing if your the one  winning the moment your the one losing it feels sucky

 

and even more so if your always losing (just like me)you might as well just not play

 

a example was me in planetside 2 i die 12 times for each kill i get   now  i just dont play as its just not fun  spending almost the whole game running to locations getiing  killed the moment i turn up

and if it had full loot  i wouldnt have played past 5 mins

 

the biggest problem with full loot  or all games in general is it  rewards  the good or best players with better equipment  when  the players who really need  help are the ones who die all the time

 

its just like wow and its tread mill of  equipment  and the best get the best weapons

 

a handicap system would encourage people to play  

players with a bigger handicap could have braggin rights  bigger reputations than players who  had better equipment

 

and if i really thought i was a great pvp  then winning with equipment worse than my oponent would give me greater satisfaction than winning knowing that its my  super equipment that  won it for me  and not my skill 

  toddze

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 2195

I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.

12/03/12 2:33:13 AM#75
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

If mmo pvp is a joke, only with hotbar spamming, what to say about the pve!!!!   LOL

 

 

Yes I am very well aware that PVE has turned to that aswell in these current MMO's, no arument here, hence I have not bought an MMO in well over 3 years now. And  there is never equal conditions in PVP so thats a redundant argument to try and use, and nothing more than a pipe dream. I use reality for my debates, not what ifs.

PVP and PVE do not co-exist well in a game, they water each other down, and take away from each other. In PVP players have to be somewhat balanced. In good challeneging PVE there needs to be a strict defined roles. When you have a mix of pve and pvp you have to take away from the strict roles to make the classes viable for PVP. Its like oil and water they dont dont mix well. 

Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5188

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

12/03/12 2:40:25 AM#76
im a PvE person, but i dont fear PvP. I like open world PvP but i strongly dislike both permadeath and Full Loot, specially if i have to pay to play the game and get ganked, full looted and / or perma dead.... i can live with getting ganked since thats the nature of the beast (open world pvp), but all i can say about the other two (permadeath and full loot) is that  my money has a value im not willing to waste with them. I do not enjoy that so i dont play those games. Even for free, i just dont enjoy those two features so i dont support them or any game that has them.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1832

12/03/12 2:40:33 AM#77

What about the people where PvP makes them angry? Shouldn't that be a category as well?

I can't count the times I have been called a jerkoff or an ahole, only out to ruin somebody elses fun on a PvP server merely for catching somebody by surprise. No highlevel vs lowlevel or fighting somebody engaged with a mob, nor exploiting, just straight up pvp

  Niburu

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 303

12/03/12 2:45:16 AM#78

people hate to lose. Since it got mentioned what is so bad about full loot PvP. Yes you lose stuff but on the other hand it is much easier to get stuff. So you have to keep your own item flow right and gain more than you lose. This can be done by trading smart farming or buying.

I don't get this thinking that when i lose something it is bad the only thing it does it makes things more interesting.

  Adamantine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3309

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

12/03/12 2:45:19 AM#79

Meh.

If you dont want PvP, dont do it ...

Most games allow pure PvE servers, dont they ?

  Slampig

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2381

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

12/03/12 2:48:05 AM#80
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world. People in almost totality did all the other things provided by the server (pve, craft, etc) preparing to pvp in search of resources, domains, ownerships of castles/fortress/territorys, glory, respect, rivalry, revenge, fun and etc.

I only made contact with people that hate PVP after joining WoW and reading foruns. This was a novelty to me and let me very intrigued and curious about the reasons of the people that avoid PVP. Reading opinions and various texts in the internet, i saw that this population "pvp-hater" can be subdivided in 2 categories: people that likes or is indiferent to pvp itself, but hates the "free pvp" ("open world FFA pvp") and people that are truly scared of any type of pvp, even the structured. I came to a conclusion about the ultimate (or primary) causes that make PVP be disliked by some  people:

 

1- PVE characters stays in certain spots waiting to be approached, while players can come to you.

 

       Keeping all the other factors equal, is this the main "annoyance" of the pvp to much people. If the monsters stayed wandering the world, invading cities, aproaching players while they are occupied, distracted, no prepared or no "in mood" to fight, this "annoyance" would be regarded as a normal thing and pvp would be less loathed by these people. These monster and other AI NPC attacks would be considered "legitimates" and source of thrill, adrenaline and adventure, challenging the players in strive to survive, dodging or fighting the threats. But the same, if made by human-controled characters, is (consciously or no) regarded as "illegitimate", "desnecessary", "harassment", etc

But in 99,9% of  today mmos, the PVE characters stay stopped in specific spots waiting to be slaughtered like sheeps in the pasture (see item 2).

This item explains the complains about "balance", zerg and trans-level kill too: PVE characters can too be "overpowered", in greater number or higher lv, but they stay in their spots, allowing the players approach them only if in advantageous conditions.

 

 

2- Human-controled characters is much more harder to defeat in 99% of the time.

 

As the AI tecnology is still far away from the capacity of a actual human brain, the human-controled characters, in equal conditions, will be more harder to defeat and unpredictable. To defeat a human-controled player requires a minimum of training, attention and motor coordination from the players, ie, skill and mental work, which not everyone is willling to do or have. Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just  "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting.

If the AI controlled characters had the same complex fighting behavior and tactics of the humans, the pvp would be less hated by these people too, since there wouldn't much difference.

 PVE characters can only become "hard" with gigantic increase in their stats, but still are predictable like a bull in the arena and can be easily beaten by a group of players whose only "challenge" is to form and keep a group able to memorize a handful of "movements". 

 

3- In most mmos, PVE offfers more guaranteed rewards.

 

This is the main reason to much people. In 99% of the mmos, the PVE offers game rewards in a regular and guaranteed way, while PVP dont, or, if it offers, is at a high risk that sometimes dont compensates. Many mmos fails in create a functional risk-reward system  to the pvp, and ends up not attracting the population that dont pvp for fun, but could happily (?) pvp if the potential reward is tempting. These mmos with bad risk-reward systems makes the pvp be practiced only by the people that have fun in doing it regardless of the "reward".

The sandboxes mmos almost always creates a good risk-reward system, since the players competes by countless things in the open world.

 

 

In summary: pvp requires more work, attention and skill to be handled (either fighting, fleeing, dodging or avoiding) and not always gives valuable rewards to tempt the people turned away by these requirements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

 

You missed a third type of player. The people that don't mind PvP but can't stand the asshats that free-for-all full loot brings to the game. I for one am in this third crowd.

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

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