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Darkfall: Unholy Wars

Darkfall: Unholy Wars 

General Discussion  » Aventurine "gets it". I wish all MMO devs did.

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258 posts found
  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1381

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

12/02/12 2:46:06 AM#121
Originally posted by William12
You want an open world non instance experience go play vanguard no game will ever capture the size of that world again at launch.

 

....except for Darkfall.   i don't know which is bigger, and i don't care.  they are both in a world of their own compared to launch sizes of any other obviously handcrafted MMO.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1381

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

12/02/12 2:51:48 AM#122
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by LizardEgypt

Exactly. Anyone trying to take the Massive out of MMO is in the wrong genre.

Why?  I mean, they took the "RPG" out of "MMORPG" just fine.

Because RPG wasn't the unique part of the genre, the MM was. Taking out the MM but still calling it an MMORPG is just wrong.

 

 exactly

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  MadnessRealm

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2718

Ignorance is Bliss.

12/02/12 2:57:08 AM#123
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Arglebargle

Yeah, a lot of back-patting in this thread.   'Someone agreed with me!  It must be true for all!'

 

Instances are easier on developers,  because they solve certain problems.   Denying the problems exist does not solve them.  

 

right.  instancing doesn't solve the problem of shoe-horning single player game design into an MMO.

unless you consider eliminating the MMO part, and making them basically not much more than a sp a "solution".

Instancing has allowed more players to access content "equally" that they might not have been able to otherwise. Back in EQ, you had groups of players camping specific dungeon areas or bosses all day long and you simply had no way of being able to access them properly. Instancing solves this issue by allowing players to play in different instances to access the same content they might otherwise not have had the chance to experience properly given the situation. Which is not to say that the system is perfect however, as it does have its flaws, but it serves its purpose quite well in PvE-oriented MMORPGs.

As far as single-player design in an MMO, I think it actually has more to do with the seclusive nature of questing rather than instancing. In the large majority of MMORPGs, each players will receive the same quests that only they can do (because they are the true hero! ... amongst thousands of other heroes but shhh, don't tell them.). If quests were to include more players rather than restrict them to a single player, I think these games would have a much more MMO-like experience to them. GW2 achieved this to some extent with its Event system, but that system also has it's flaws.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  thinktank001

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1954

12/02/12 3:16:45 AM#124

[quote] Originally posted by Magiknight   So you would say that DF:UW does have instances?  [/quote]

 

Yes, I would call it an instance, but many would call it phasing, or whatever new word is used for a portal that sends a player to a seperate map. 

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1381

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

12/02/12 3:17:25 AM#125
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

For an MMORPG, going without instances is what should be strived for.

 

So you make a set of axioms what MMOs should be or not and how they should be or not and then when something does not fit in, it is a bad design.


Fallacious logic is just that, fallacious.

 

So you make a set of axioms what opinions should be or not and how they should be or not and then when an opinion does not fit in, it is a bad opinion.

i'll let you take or ignore your own critique there at the end.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16852

12/02/12 3:36:34 AM#126

Personally do I think instances can be fun, the problem is just the same as with cutscenes, as soon as you add more than a few it tends to be annoying.

Having a few instanced dungeons and storylines can be fun, just like a few cutscenes can help the mode. As example did we used to run instanced dungeons in EQ2 whenever the server was too full for the open ones. Being in an overfull open dungeon can be rather annoying, and early EQ2 often had most of the dungeons none instanced but had the big boss instanced because you dont want to stand in line for him, or have to wait for respawn and kill the PH.

But instances cutscenes and phasing are all tools that can easily be overused and that takes away the fun from the game. 

I dont think Tasos is right here but no instances are way better than too many which most of the modern MMOs have.

I do not mind instanced solostories like in GW2 even if the game seems somewhat less populated due to it, players going around and only play with themselves doesnt really make the game more social at all and instancing the soloing actually make the world feel more social while still giving the soloers something to do.

So I guess I give Tasos half right, because too many instances make any MMO into a CORPG instead, which is a very different type of game that is best enjoyed played with a small group of friends instead of a massive social game.

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2401

12/02/12 10:01:19 AM#127
In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 
  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 871

12/02/12 10:07:15 AM#128
So instances are bad? When you jump gate from one solar system to another, aren't you entering an instance? Each solar system in a space game is it's own instance and the jump gate is like a little cut scene that gets you between instances. I don't see how that is bad game design?
  Niburu

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 349

12/02/12 10:14:39 AM#129
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
So instances are bad? When you jump gate from one solar system to another, aren't you entering an instance? Each solar system in a space game is it's own instance and the jump gate is like a little cut scene that gets you between instances. I don't see how that is bad game design?

sorry but you have no clue what instance means.

 

An instance are multiple versions of the same zone for a group of players or individual players.

 

When all players of one world (server) can access the same zone via portal and end up in the same version of the world it is not an instance, i mean if you are a dick and want to call it a single instance OKAY but this would be dumb.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/02/12 10:54:10 AM#130
Originally posted by Badaboom
In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Cecropia

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Posts: 3343

Poacher killer.

12/02/12 11:10:43 AM#131
Originally posted by Badaboom
In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

Ah, the MMORPG killers all in one little post. Quite ugly when you see it all at once. My eyes, my eyes! 

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/02/12 11:13:31 AM#132
Shouldn't your avatar be a bit more, I dunno, moth-y?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2401

12/02/12 2:03:08 PM#133
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Badaboom
In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19530

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/02/12 2:33:07 PM#134
Originally posted by Badaboom
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Badaboom
In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

Hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Are the features mentioned a response to the other, or did the features themselves cause the negative effects?

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
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  DarthRaiden

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

12/02/12 6:10:52 PM#135
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Badaboom
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Badaboom
In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

Hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Are the features mentioned a response to the other, or did the features themselves cause the negative effects?

 

All i know is the time this genre has been invented there was no instance etc. it was a hell of a time with great communities for all playstyles, crazy communications and chats with people doing all kind of fun stuff, using the game mechanics  in games that ALLOWED that to happen.

The explorer was next to achiever and they worked hand in hand and some crazy designer designed both them homes and all together they watched someone dance (possible in SWG for example) . They together might build a city and while doing that some crazy nerd working solely with spreadsheets and being laughed at at start filled their vendors with all kind of stuff that exeeded even from developers set ranges on crafting items. 

No one can tell me that THIS isn't a MMORPG i lived it and i loved it !

Away with singleplayer mentalitiesand and playstyle monoculture already..it makes the human brain sick ! ans those who wasn't here to experience it getting fooled  by unispired moneygrabber companies or those who lack talent or give up.

DF had the chance to become what i described above, they died on the way on the medicrity and the mindset of their producers (i believe the developers and especially the Razorwax guys still would work on a real good MMORPG but the money division is in the hands of Tasos )

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  thinktank001

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1954

12/02/12 6:38:03 PM#136
Originally posted by DarthRaiden

DF had the chance to become what i described above, they died on the way on the medicrity and the mindset of their producers (i believe the developers and especially the Razorwax guys still would work on a real good MMORPG but the money division is in the hands of Tasos )

 

I won't disagree with your reasoning that somewhere along the way DF changed, but I don't think the game was changed to make more money.   I feel that after posting their intial game mechanics it had changed from a MMORPG to a PvP arena.  Any interview that Tacos has done always seems to emphasize that DF is " fast-paced ", and many of the design choices they made reflected that idea.  There really hasn't been a time that he ever stated a goal to create a living breathing world.   It was always about the idea that players would be in an eternal battle over Agon.

 

 

  Fearum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1092

12/02/12 6:42:48 PM#137
Im gonna give it a shot, df 1 was a turd, I hope they polished up enough this time. Yeah its more like mortal combat/streetfighter than a rpg.
  Aconsar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/10
Posts: 268

12/02/12 6:46:44 PM#138
Originally posted by zymurgeist
So no high resolution textures then?

I'd rather a game look like Minecraft if it allowed for complete open, non-instanced gameworld than I would have it look like <enter any ADD overly flashy new age game here>.

  waynejr2

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Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3888

RIP City of Heroes!

12/02/12 7:01:18 PM#139
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Badaboom
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Badaboom
In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

I know it isn't and its sad. I feel that the points I mentioned are the root of the cause of the effects that you mentioned. 

Hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Are the features mentioned a response to the other, or did the features themselves cause the negative effects?

 

 Some of it is a result of player complaining.  Remember rare world boss spawns in eq?  Some players got vocal about it.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3343

Poacher killer.

12/02/12 7:45:35 PM#140
Originally posted by Icewhite
Shouldn't your avatar be a bit more, I dunno, moth-y?

lol, I smell a googler. You come across as far too powerful and attractive to have much of an interest in Entomology.

You do make a good point, though. But personally, I didn't want to be known as that weird "moth guy" (I wouldn't be able to live with myself; who could?). As stunning as the Cecropia is, I felt that this genius H.R. Giger painting better represented me as the adored and celebrated forum royal that I am ;)

"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

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