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Darkfall: Unholy Wars

Darkfall: Unholy Wars 

General Discussion  » Aventurine "gets it". I wish all MMO devs did.

13 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
258 posts found
  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2435

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

12/01/12 9:00:16 AM#41
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Today Tasos echoed something I have been saying for years. Something that always brings out the screaming themepark fans who just cannot see how games function without them.

Instances are there to help the developers, not the players.

 

Tasos says, roughly,

"On instances let me just say, we never had them, we don't have them, and we might never have them. They don't agree with our philosphy for a massively multiplayer game. ... We want player interaction to be at the major possible level and we don't want to limit it by instancing. Instancing is really not in our DNA...We don't want to take away from that. We don't like the instances, and if we ever do go to any form of instancing, it will be to improve our user experience, and not because they are more convenient to us. Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."

 

I've always aid that instances are band aids for poor game design. Developers that rely on instancing do so because they can't figure out how to make a balanced MMO without it.

If you took instances out of WoW it would fall apart. EQ suffered without instances (in terms of camping rare spawns, not general leveling. General leveling flourished without instancing).

However, DAoC functioned perfectly without instances. I never waited in line for a mob spawn. Nobody ever stole my kills (which I always found to be a dumb objection anyway, because if someone were to go about stealing your kills, they could do it in the public zones just as easily)

 

If a dev adds instancing, it's because its sooo much easier to half ass a game and plop instances in, than think about an MMO as en entire ecosystem. Most MMOs are becoming a collection of side games all stapled together, seperated by instances. They are no longer big cohesive units.

 

I'm glad to see that Aventurine, one of the only companies that sees instances for what they are, a crutch, is also one of the ONLY MMO companies to GROW after launch in the last 8 years,

 

Glad to hear about no instancing and phasing, and well said DavisFlight.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  xDayx

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 713

12/01/12 9:16:23 AM#42
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Schockey
That is goodstuff! My friend and I left one of the last big titles because the instancing was so inconvenient and the load screens took away so much from immersion.

To be honest, there are portals that get you inside the dungeon, but tecnically the dungeons are not instanced as everyone can get inside.

Let's say AV is right in the middle an instanced and a non instanced dungeon

Only seamless world is Vanguard  where dungeons are connected with the rest of the map with no portals

Vanguard is not the only seamless world. Mortal Online, Wurm, Xsyon, ATITD, are all seamless, there may be a few others as well.

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

12/01/12 9:21:36 AM#43
Originally posted by Flex1

If used perfectly instances can aid a mmo more than hurt it.

 

I think Guild Wars 2 does it the way I would say perfectly fits the nature of instances. If you want story elements in your mmo add them.

One reason I dont play guild wars 2 anymore is because of their instancing, so how is it perfect again?

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5152

12/01/12 9:50:39 AM#44
Originally posted by xDayx
 

Vanguard is not the only seamless world. Mortal Online, Wurm, Xsyon, ATITD, are all seamless, there may be a few others as well.

Vanguard wasn't exactly seamless - the game would pause when crossing region lines - it was very noticeable. Other games have managed to eliminate the loading pause.

  sanshi44

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1046

12/01/12 10:06:00 AM#45
IMO games were so much better without instancing, the best times ive had have been i ngames that do not offer instances, that being Darkfall and Everquest 1 these 2 games have been th most memorable games ive played, i can still remember the entire map set up of Norrath even after the 8 years or so ive stopped playing for can name probaly 95% of the zones on releases and first couple expansions.
  Snoepie

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/18/07
Posts: 493

12/01/12 10:06:45 AM#46

i always like reading stuff here from people who never played the game..

 

Keep discussing and bashing the game like your used too... fine by me... you never will understand why darkfall have such a strong community and dedication to the game..

  kartool

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 460

12/01/12 10:21:01 AM#47
Originally posted by Arglebargle

Yeah, a lot of back-patting in this thread.   'Someone agreed with me!  It must be true for all!'

 

Instances are easier on developers,  because they solve certain problems.   Denying the problems exist does not solve them.  

Adventurine hasn't even had to deal with a high population so dude's opinion on instancing is kind of moot. It's like the guy who walks to work everyday bitching about the train he doesn't have to take...

If I recall correctly they were so inept at launch that it was basically a lottery to buy the game because they couldn't handle the population. 

 

  Anireth

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 401

12/01/12 10:36:42 AM#48

What he said was basically "we won't do instances..unless we do them after all". Wow, that was fast. Even politicians usually stand for what they said some days. " This is saying "maybe" without being blunt. "Getting it" is different, even if they end up not doing them.

I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

 
OP  12/01/12 12:20:28 PM#49
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by Arglebargle

Yeah, a lot of back-patting in this thread.   'Someone agreed with me!  It must be true for all!'

 

Instances are easier on developers,  because they solve certain problems.   Denying the problems exist does not solve them.  

Adventurine hasn't even had to deal with a high population so dude's opinion on instancing is kind of moot. It's like the guy who walks to work everyday bitching about the train he doesn't have to take...

If I recall correctly they were so inept at launch that it was basically a lottery to buy the game because they couldn't handle the population. 

 

You remember incorrectly. The server was full at launch, so yes, they had to deal with a high population. The server could handle about 11k people logged in at the same time, with no instancing.

The problems that instancing solves are derived from bad game design. A good developer will properly balance their game so that they never need instancing. A bad developer will slap instancing over the problem and then walk away.

So yes, the problems exist, but instancing is the worst way to fix them.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

 
OP  12/01/12 12:23:23 PM#50
Originally posted by DMKano

So Eq1, UO, DAoC, basically any gen 1 MMORPG more than 10 years ago "got it" as none of them had instancing. 

Need I mention that some like EQ1 were themeparks with no instances......

My point is that having instances or not is not indicative of sandbox or themeparks, nor is it indicative of a good or bad game. It's just a technology that is all.

 

No one is talking about themepark or sandbox. We're talking about good game design. Almost every MMO that relies on instances does so because they are poorly designed. Games that choose NOT to have instances take the high road and solve their problems through design, rather than hurting their players by half assing everything and then instancing it.

It's a technology that is usually indicative of the skill level of the developers, and their game philosophy. Almost every MMO with heavy instancing has been poorly designed in some fashion.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

 
OP  12/01/12 12:27:34 PM#51
Originally posted by Siveria

Sadly they don't get that open world greif/gank fests won't survive in the mmo world of casuals.

Considering they are one of the only successful and growing MMOs of the last 8 years, as is Eve, I'd say you're wrong.

DAoC is still my favorite MMO, but this style is viable.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2524

 
OP  12/01/12 12:28:54 PM#52
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

Aventurine "gets it".


 

That is why DF is so successful...oh wait..

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

"Because usually instance are used for technical reasons, for convenience of the developer."


 

Yeah, seems like Tassos does not get it...at all. Instances are primarily there to improve player experience - "50 people fighting over a single quest/boss mob" issue.

......

wow. You must be new to the MMO genre then?

If you have 50 people waiting in line for the same quest/boss mob, then you completely failed at designing your game. I never once did that in DAoC. Instances in this cause would be to make up for horrible game design.

 

PS, Darkfall was very successful.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6910

12/01/12 12:29:54 PM#53


Originally posted by DavisFlight

The problems that instancing solves are derived from bad game design. A good developer will properly balance their game so that they never need instancing. A bad developer will slap instancing over the problem and then walk away.

Still same circular reasoning...

Instancing/bad design is bad because instancing/design is bad.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6910

12/01/12 12:31:56 PM#54


Originally posted by DavisFlight
......

wow. You must be new to the MMO genre then?

If you have 50 people waiting in line for the same quest/boss mob, then you completely failed at designing your game. I never once did that in DAoC. Instances in this cause would be to make up for horrible game design.

 

PS, Darkfall was very successful.


Here we go again...

A fix to issue makes a "horrible design" because the design is horrible.

  Yamota

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6506

"I fight so you don't have to."

12/01/12 12:31:57 PM#55

I agree. Instancing is the cheap and lazy devs. sollution for player competing over resources. So Tasos says it very well when he says it has nothing to do with MMORPGs.

However Aventurine does not have the resources to create a top quality MMO...

  LizardEgypt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/09
Posts: 359

Hmm ?

12/01/12 12:31:57 PM#56
Anyone disagreeing with Tasos is lying to themselves. Whether you liked Darkfall or are interested in Darkfall UW, he is right. The games everyone is drooling over are no MMO diablo games. I see arguments that instancing is good on an MMO website. Go play GW2, SWTOR, or any of the other fake teleporting around the map RPGs for the shallow 2 weeks it'll last you and tell me again how much you support instancing. No player interaction, no risk/reward, just boring contrived repeatable gameplay.

Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  Yamota

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6506

"I fight so you don't have to."

12/01/12 12:33:56 PM#57
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by DavisFlight

The problems that instancing solves are derived from bad game design. A good developer will properly balance their game so that they never need instancing. A bad developer will slap instancing over the problem and then walk away.


 

Still same circular reasoning...

Instancing/bad design is bad because instancing/design is bad.

No, bad design is bad because the worlds are too small and do not properly handle mob spawns, hence instancing for this poor design.

A world which is huge, and varied in mob spawns will not need instancing because people would be spread out. Eve is an example of this.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

12/01/12 12:34:08 PM#58
Originally posted by LizardEgypt
 

I'm just reading "11k" and "full server" and wondering wth are we even discussing the same issues?

At the very least, we're comparing apples and oranges (someone bringing up little spaceships in a discussion about sword and board MMOs, for instance).

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6910

12/01/12 12:36:54 PM#59


Originally posted by Yamota

No, bad design is bad because the worlds are too small and do not properly handle mob spawns, hence instancing for this poor design.

A world which is huge, and varied in mob spawns will not need instancing because people would be spread out. Eve is an example of this.


There is no proper handling, it is a choice. You either do it with instancing or without.

Neither is better than the other. Both have their pros and cons.

  User Deleted
12/01/12 12:37:10 PM#60
Originally posted by LizardEgypt
Anyone disagreeing with Tasos is lying to themselves. Whether you liked Darkfall or are interested in Darkfall UW, he is right. The games everyone is drooling over are no MMO diablo games. I see arguments that instancing is good on an MMO website. Go play GW2, SWTOR, or any of the other fake teleporting around the map RPGs for the shallow 2 weeks it'll last you and tell me again how much you support instancing. No player interaction, no risk/reward, just boring contrived repeatable gameplay.

god yes! 

excellent wrap up :)

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