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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Greed Monger 

General Discussion  » Why I no longer support GM, and retracted my "backing" on Kickstarter.

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116 posts found
  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16023

12/02/12 3:18:55 AM#81

While I dont know anything about Jason, game designers have to start somewhere and if only experienced game designers could make games we wouldnt have any. Once in a while someone really talented actually comes out and makes a great first game.

That is however something pretty rare, but happens. Kaplan, lead designer on Titan now is a good example, he was just a player in the same guild as Blizzard Ceo Morhaime when the guy with the idea for Wow quit from Blizzard (Strain, he have since founded ANET and Undead labs) and got the job on a fluke. Like Wow or not, but he made a pretty good job anyways on his first game.

I am just saying that talent is more important here than experience, some lead designers have made many games but nothing good while others make hit after hit.

Just having no experience is not a good reason to boycot a lead designer. But the same thing does not go for lead programmer, if Grredmonger got an inexperienced guy there as well it is time for concerns, bad programming have killed of more MMOs than anything else and a good lead programmer needs both experience and talent, and lots of both. In a perfect world is the lead designer also a good programer (as Strain is) but few have talents for both.

My point is that Jasons ideas and how good he is to listens to his teams ideas is the important things here, not what he worked with in the past. And that any MMO without a good lead programmer will go down the drain no matter how great ideas it have.

  Nacario

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 209

The real world is roleplay and background noise

12/02/12 3:48:31 AM#82

There's a reason why companies need Kickstarter: they're fresh and new in the industry, they need the money to continue, the publicity, which in the end gives experience that will help and strenghten their decisions in future game development. Game designs is a business and an art that require a certain personality, mindfulness and imagination to fully master. I dont give a #!3"$ if he or she doesnt have a game degree, as long as there's will and we've seen that from the videos so far. There are so many more companies and devs that are in this exact position on Kickstarter, heck there's even more low budget projects that arn't even on Kickstarter in the first place. I spent 3600 dollars over a two year time period on a F2P (buy to win) low budget MMORPG for five years ago, and I had a blast the two years before it shut down. No MMORPG has managed to catch their systems and flavor so far, while they at the same time had their own errors.

GM devs have done a fairly good job defending their product and job in this thread, because that's what OP is doing, trying to hinder them and for what reason. No matter what you pick on you'll never have the full overview because you're not in their shoes, you havent seen everything. Give them a figthing chance.

  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 649

12/02/12 4:23:02 AM#83

I'm not going to weigh in on either side of the argument; I just wanted to make a quick point. Many of these replies focus around who is qualified for what. Many people defending Jason are using examples of success stories of those whom weren't particularly qualified. I'm just going to say that citing something that is an exception, and not the rule, isn't a good defense. Yes, there are successful people who've had no experience or training in the field, but not many. He may or may not make the best game ever, and his inexperience may not dictate failure, but it's not a boon either. Though, I will admit that it's... refreshing (for lack of a better word) to see someone who is more like a gaming peer on the development side. Many gamers that I talk to feel that they are sitting on the winning lotto for gaming ideas, and it's interesting to see someone finally put that to the test. Jason is a PR guy, and he's aware that bad publicity is still publicity. He's not out to scam anyone, and I wish him luck.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6382

12/02/12 7:01:55 AM#84


Originally posted by blognorg

I'm just going to say that citing something that is an exception, and not the rule, isn't a good defense. Yes, there are successful people who've had no experience or training in the field, but not many.

It isn't citing an exception, it points to fact that no education can make you successful as "success" is nothing that can be thought at school.


To be "successful" requires completely different skills than professional qualification.

  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 649

12/02/12 1:12:41 PM#85


Originally posted by Gdemami  

Originally posted by blognorg I'm just going to say that citing something that is an exception, and not the rule, isn't a good defense. Yes, there are successful people who've had no experience or training in the field, but not many.
  It isn't citing an exception, it points to fact that no education can make you successful as "success" is nothing that can be thought at school. To be "successful" requires completely different skills than professional qualification.
 

I don't believe that I said anything about school. Qualifications can be anything where you have demonstrated your abilities. The issue that people have been bringing up is that Jason hasn't. How many people create successful games on their first go? Not many. I'm not saying that it doesn't or can't happen, but some people on here are making it seem that training and experience count for nothing, when it does. It's like if you applied for a job, and in the interview, you're asked what your experience is, and you have none. No one's saying that you can't do the job, but it certainly makes you less qualified. If you even listen to game developers that have made it big, they still talk about how much they learn with each project. Again, I'm not saying it can't be done, but listing the occasional success story isn't a defense. But don't get me wrong, I do support this project, because I like indie games. I regularly support Kickstarter, and it's cool to see someone that's able to make a game that he/she is passionate about.

  Brigander

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 54

 
OP  12/02/12 6:26:56 PM#86
Originally posted by Mogus

Hello,

 I was reading this thread late last night and just have a few things to add.

Brig, in reading your initial post, there were so many one sided assumptions and inaccuracies in it, that it's obvious you have some kind of ulterior motive in your efforts here. I don't know what they are, or why, but you keep referencing the video interview to back up your claims which are exactly opposite of what I said in the video.

.....

 

 

Sorry, I shortened your post as not to have a giant wall or text from a large post.  Thanks for your personal reply, but I will correct you one thing from the git-go. I have no ulterior motives, and the truth that sort of bugs me is that isn't the first time I have heard you used that phrase.  You come across a bit of a conspiracy theorist sometimes, like in the video you said "People don't want to see us succeed" and that there's "jealousy" involved.  Do you think I'm a mole sent in from EA Games?  Rockstar?  Bizzard?  I guess that's one theory, but to me personally I don't really understand what why you think that.

Let's say I didn't (hypothetically, please, this is hypothetical), why would I donate to your kickstart, and then make this post?  What do I gain from seeing a possible game failure?  I really can't see any possible advantage, messing with someone's career and life is far pass "trolling."  That isn't my agenda.  That isn't my intent.  I just am trying to say that just because someone may dislike yourself, the game, or how you act doesn't mean that they're jealous or want to see you fail.  That's a very large leap and assumption-- which you seem so keen on being against, yet you make several yourself in your post (I won't pick each one out).

I thank you for posting your career history, but you also sort of avoided a lot of my other points and just filled you post up with unrelated stories of your job experiences.  That's fine, I mean I understand what you're getting at, but you also avoided a lot of my major other points.

 

 

Secondly, no I no longer play Wurm, it's been months.  So no, I am not his/her friend, and I am not here to defend her.  I donated to Kickstart fund before you ever made those posts there.   Do I agree with Brash's post?  I don't know, I think it was a bit offensive to a degree, but you must also realize they're only REPLIES, she never STARTED the threads.  She only gave her insight and opinions on the game, and then said she wasn't following the game.  It all seemed fairly mature to me,  With no bias I believe she/he was only expressing her reasons why she wasn't interested in the game, as any reviewer of a game would.  I don't like WoW because I feel it's very easy, it's a dumbed down version since the original '04 release, with too many expansions.  Just because I don't like it and state my reasons isn't a call for Blizzard to come after me, as you did with him/her.

Do you think it's mature and proper to go to another community's forum -- using 2-3 different accounts at that -- even going to as far as to threaten him/her with a lawsuit?  That crosses boundaries professionally and as a human being.  Now you say:

"I am a stern but fair guy and no, I'm not your typical "suit". I'm big, I am blunt and believe it or not, brutally honest. You may not always like what I say and I may not always have all of the answers, but I'm also aware of the fact that like you, I'm merely human and the only way to grow is to admit faults and work through them while fixing mistakes made and keep moving forward. What I don't know, I learn."

I respect that, you're your own person, we all are.  Not many agree with me here with my reasons, and some do.  That's how it is.  It's a bit funny though for someone who is "blunt and brutally honest" you seem to have issues with myself being blunt and brutually honest, and accuse me of a hidden agenda.  That hard to believe there's two personalities alike?  I appreciate honesty, but being honest doesn't excuse your actions in your posts and attacks on other gaming community's forums.  That was out of line, and what you may think was Brash's actions that caused $8000+ lose, I can assure you my $50 was because of your actions against them.  

 

 

I strongly advise  you look into a Public Relations manager.  Someone to speak on your behalf, someone who can handle themselves professionally and respectfully to even "trolls" and dislikers of Greed Monger.  If you're going to have an MMORPG you're going to want to appear at least organized and respectable, not like it's ran by a group of goons who invade other's forums.   I don't in anyways think you're a bad evil person who is scamming -- [b]and I never said that[/b], nor implied it.  I do think you are set in making the MMORPG and game, and I don't think it's a scam, just poorly orchestrated.   This is only my opinion, Jason, don't take it to heart if you don't wish to.  I am saying for myself, as an investor of games, and lover of games, I want to be sure that everyone acts accordingly and professional.  Do you think for the public image your acitons were justified and well-handled?  I don't even think you would say they were, and that's FINE, that's okay, we make mistakes.  The problem is sometimes when you make mistakes, Jason, I am not quite sure you really realize that you don't apologize.  

For example, you lied to us about Facebook Likes.  You used fake people to boost your numbers.  Does this hurt anyone?  Not really.  Did you fabricate the truth to falsely advetise?  Yes, you did, you lied to us.  Then when confronted about it, did you apologize?  No, you just said, "Who cares?"  Well I care, Jason, as an investor I want you to be honest with us.  You were only honest after you were caught and publicly called out upon it, you didn't come forward with this information -- it was discovered.  That's my qualm, is that you realize mistakes, acknowledge them, but only make excuses for doing them and never really take responsibilty for them.  

 

 

 

I think next time you need to think before you react.  Your post here is better, at least it's not offensive and rude.  I think you made a few assumptions, as did I, and were a bit hypocritical at times, but overall you seem to of actually put thought into this post before just going off like you did before.  

 

I appreciate your time to address my concerns, but I am sorry if you are clouded in believing I am sitting here with secret agendas and hoping to see you fail.  That's not what I am after.  Thanks for your time and reply.  

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6382

12/02/12 6:33:33 PM#87


Originally posted by blognorg

Qualifications can be anything where you have demonstrated your abilities. The issue that people have been bringing up is that Jason hasn't.


What people and posts are you referring to? I assumed you were talking about degrees and formal education remarks in OP and what people commented on.

However, my point still applies.


As you said yourself "Qualifications can be anything where you have demonstrated your abilities." and "It's like if you applied for a job, and in the interview, you're asked what your experience is, and you have none." - and he definitely isn't without expreince and I would say most of his past positions at least should require some related skill.

Note: I am not defending J. Appleton, just discussing the reasoning.

  Brigander

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 54

 
OP  12/02/12 6:39:10 PM#88

I don't ever state that Jason needed a game design degree to be successful.  I merely commented that he doesn't have one, nor any real experience in developing MMORPGs or games.  Does that by any means that he can't actually construct a game successfully?  No, of course not.  He may very well go on to make a great game and make millions and have a #1 game of 2013.  We all know Minecraft come out of the blue (though Notch notably had a long history of game developing).  

 

I was just commenting that I think Jason's lack in game design and game development shows, and to me, personally, that this is a phase for him to add to a long list of career choices and jobs.  I think it shows in the way he posts, acts, and responds to people.  Could I tell you any the other developers of Greed Monger?  Nope, not one, because they're quiet and behind the scenes quietly working for a good game, where as Jason is more upfront, vocal, and even hostile sometimes to a degree -- and I think if he had more experiecne he wouldn't act as such.  

  zephermarkus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/09
Posts: 226

12/02/12 6:42:30 PM#89
      Guys the people trashing greed monger are a defunk team of indie devs that had a kickstarter and it failed and now that greed monger is succeding they want him to fail. I am not giving proof and not giving names but i know this to be the truth and brigander is one of the the guys so anything else you see about jason is all jealousy that they failed and he isn't. Sorry guys that nobody liked your idea! BUT STFU NOBODY CARES I HOPE YOU GET THE SHIT BEAT OUT OF YOU FOR WHAT YOUR TRYING TO DO.
  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6382

12/02/12 6:46:02 PM#90


Originally posted by Brigander
I don't ever state that Jason needed a game design degree to be successful.  I merely commented that he doesn't have one, nor any real experience in developing MMORPGs or games.  Does that by any means that he can't actually construct a game successfully?  No, of course not.  He may very well go on to make a great game and make millions and have a #1 game of 2013.  We all know Minecraft come out of the blue (though Notch notably had a long history of game developing).  

 

I was just commenting that I think Jason's lack in game design and game development shows, and to me, personally, that this is a phase for him to add to a long list of career choices and jobs.  I think it shows in the way he posts, acts, and responds to people.  Could I tell you any the other developers of Greed Monger?  Nope, not one, because they're quiet and behind the scenes quietly working for a good game, where as Jason is more upfront, vocal, and even hostile sometimes to a degree -- and I think if he had more experiecne he wouldn't act as such.


I think part of your misunderstanding is that you don't really understand what Lead Designer's role is...

Lead Designer is responsible that production team will deliver what it is supposed to deliver.


It is a manager position and skills required for similar positions are universal. That is why most managers can shift industry and positions without much hassle, because it does not really matter.

Their skills lies mostly elsewhere than factual knowledge.

  Onomas

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1138

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

12/02/12 6:46:44 PM#91

No point in this really. If the game comes out and does well, then good for them. If it bombs, then its on them and you can rub it in their face. But even the little man can sometimes make you do a double take. Its good they are trying, it might not be how you would do it, but atleast someone is attempting to make a decent sandbox.

I like many aspects of this game minus the plots they are selling (dont mind the price, just the limits on them), and the graphics are old school. But a decent game will over-shadow all of that.

 

And to the devs of greed monger..... stay true to your word and make a good game. Dont change for the whiney people, and good luck!

  Mogus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/04
Posts: 176

12/02/12 6:53:49 PM#92

Brig,

 just for the sake of argument and my being tired of the on going assumptions of my aptitude, let's just say that you are all right, I'm wrong in defending myself against all of the accusations, attacks on me personally (not a made up avatar), and anything else anyone would like to assume.

Ok?

At this point, it doesn't matter.

When the game is done, you will be able to judge the game.

Until you've met me, know me, have worked with or for me, anything you all assume is just that. Assumptions. I've seen so many of my words twisted out of context or just plain re-arranged that at this point I've accepted the fact that when you put yourself out there, people with nothing better to do will just start a witch hunt because it keeps them busy on their computers and apparently provides a sense of accomplishment when they've been able to get others to agree. It's kind of sad, but hey, to each their own.

I can be an asshole. Everyone that has ever worked for me knows this. I am also one of the most caring and generous people I know which most people will also tell you. I am demanding at times because I expect people to work as hard as I do. I've created many jobs in my time already and I've built many careers for people. I've made people mildly famous on a national level and I've had some failures. The point is, for every one of my faults, I have 5 positive attributes and the bottom line is, I get things done and have proven to be able to find accomplishment and success in just about anything I set my mind to.

Some people don't like that. *shrugs*

All the best to you.

www.greedmonger.com
Did you like Ultima Online? Then you'll LOVE Greed Monger!

  Myrdynn

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1254

12/02/12 7:26:28 PM#93

just wanna add, other then having to see Mogus' ugly mug on a regular basis, hes been pretty straight forward and open.  I will let the game speak for itself

 

  Brigander

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 54

 
OP  12/02/12 7:31:09 PM#94
Originally posted by Mogus

Brig,

 just for the sake of argument and my being tired of the on going assumptions of my aptitude, let's just say that you are all right, I'm wrong in defending myself against all of the accusations, attacks on me personally (not a made up avatar), and anything else anyone would like to assume.

Ok?

At this point, it doesn't matter.

When the game is done, you will be able to judge the game.

Until you've met me, know me, have worked with or for me, anything you all assume is just that. Assumptions. I've seen so many of my words twisted out of context or just plain re-arranged that at this point I've accepted the fact that when you put yourself out there, people with nothing better to do will just start a witch hunt because it keeps them busy on their computers and apparently provides a sense of accomplishment when they've been able to get others to agree. It's kind of sad, but hey, to each their own.

I can be an asshole. Everyone that has ever worked for me knows this. I am also one of the most caring and generous people I know which most people will also tell you. I am demanding at times because I expect people to work as hard as I do. I've created many jobs in my time already and I've built many careers for people. I've made people mildly famous on a national level and I've had some failures. The point is, for every one of my faults, I have 5 positive attributes and the bottom line is, I get things done and have proven to be able to find accomplishment and success in just about anything I set my mind to.

Some people don't like that. *shrugs*

All the best to you.

 

 

I read this post and just shrug, I don't really think you answered or reflected upon any my points, and I am left to wonder if you really even read my reply.  That sounds a bit mean, but this is just scribbles of random vague stuff.  I know I don't know you, nor met you, but that doesn't change my opinion.  Do you not want to know how to make your game better?  Do you know want to know why people may of left funding your kickstart?  I would think as  a developer you would want insight, but you kind of just replied with some... I don't know really what to even call it.  

 

I am not saying you're wrong to defend youself, Appleton, but there's a time and place.  Know that -- it's wordly advice, time and place.  No one joined Greed Mongers forum and openly insulted your game, career, and questioned your tactics.  The point is that you went to a totally different website's forums and lashed out at their community, making several forum accounts, and threatened to even SUE one person.  I don't need to know you to know how you act by that.  You're very right that you may be generous and a nice person, but look at it from my perspective.  You say "it's kind of sad" to me, but in honesty how you portray yourself in interviews and on other's forum is sad to me.  It makes me think you're some troll more than a developer.  

I don't know your history or career, all I know is by your online actions, and if that's all I saw what am I to conclude?  Public relations and time and place.  I hope for the best in your game, and gaming success, but I just hope you go about it the right way above and beyond all.  I don't think you're bad person, I don't think you're a scammer.  Yes, you may be a bit hostile and aggressive, but that doesn't mean you must be like that in the public eye always.  I respect honesty, I want a developer who is honest and open with good communication, but there's a difference between that and being too forward and aggressive.  

 

[mod edit]

  Talketzanto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 124

12/02/12 7:55:07 PM#95

I guarantee if Mogus offered these haters a job, they would jump at the opportunity without doubt......unemployment spawns trolls....

  Brigander

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 54

 
OP  12/02/12 7:57:25 PM#96
Originally posted by Talketzanto

I guarantee if Mogus offered these haters a job, they would jump at the opportunity without doubt......unemployment spawns trolls....

 

 

I don't really understand what this has to do with anyone?  I'm not seeking employment at GM, and I have a career already.  I don't really get how you link unemployment and trolling, but to each their own.  I guess you must be unemployed.  

  Banquetto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1017

12/02/12 8:04:15 PM#97

Maybe it would settle things down if an experienced, professional game designer got on board to help out. Maybe someone like Derek Smart would bring the calm and disciplined touch that would soothe the people concerned about the current leadership.

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2672

12/02/12 9:30:08 PM#98

This is one of those "damned if you do, damned if you dont" sorta things.  I suggest getting a model of a scantily clad lady and demo some jiggly parts animations to soothe the backers. 

''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
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**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**

  Talketzanto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 124

12/02/12 9:46:47 PM#99
Originally posted by Brigander
Originally posted by Talketzanto

I guarantee if Mogus offered these haters a job, they would jump at the opportunity without doubt......unemployment spawns trolls....

 

 

I don't really understand what this has to do with anyone?  I'm not seeking employment at GM, and I have a career already.  I don't really get how you link unemployment and trolling, but to each their own.  I guess you must be unemployed.  

But why do you care what hes doing? Give him your real name and where you work and let him troll you for a month....see how much you like it...

 

I give him more props for trying to build a game out of passion, rather then because he went to school for it 

  LadyEuphei

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/12
Posts: 226

12/02/12 10:51:07 PM#100
This is my favorite drama thread. Sit back and grab a beverage, this fire is just starting.

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