Originally posted by Brigander

No, I expected this community to know how to read a whole post, actually.  I guess you, and others, failed to do that, no offense. Having a game design or game design backgound isn't required (as I am saying this now for a third time), but I PERSONALLY feel more assured if someone has a history in game design, not someone who just is doing this spontaneously out of the blue with prior projects and history of development, nor codes, models, or really does any actual developing.  

 

I am not saying that will deteremine a game's success, but I am saying that I think his lack of being in the industry shows more than his actual development team, because he's overly vocal and aggressive to the point where you can tell his level of professionalism is low, and for ME (PERSONALLY) I just am turned off by that.  It makes me feel like he's not that serious about the project, that he's too reckless to really be thinking about the consequences of his actions, and those actions so far have lost him 8000+ backers.  

 

 

 

Edit: Uhwop sorry to be rude about this, but I can't keep replying to people have a failure to read past the first paragraph, good day, and good luck reading the entire thread before making a rather repetitive post that others have already touched on and been discussed.  You're like the kid shows up to class late and has to be brought up to speed.  

 I actually read your entire post.  I do get it, and don't blame you for being skeptical.  Seriously, I wouldn't give the guy money, but not for your reasons.

I'm a self-taught artist, and it's not arrogance or cockiness that allows me to say that there is no kid in art school learning traditional art that knows more than me or can paint better than me just because they're in art school. 

Telling anyone, I don't care how horrible they may be, that they aren't qualified without a degree is unacceptable.  Saying something after the fact means little to me, when I can go to your OP and there it is. 

Right this moment, the very first bullet point.  "He's not qualified because he doesn't have a degree".  You are wrong for writting that. 

You know, I play a game that started off as a garage project by a husband and wife.  They had no real game design background but that didn't stop them. The game they developed with a team of less than 10 people was called Mount and Blade.   When it was first released as a demo back in 2005 it's graphics were not all that greeat and the game was far from looking good.   When I started playing it(the demo), it had gotten a bit of a graphics make-over and the game play was more refined.    Today I consider Mount and Blade: Warband one of the greatest games ever made.  

As I recall, Asheron's Call was created the same way basically.  Just a group of people that had a passion to make a great game.   They worked in this guys living room.  They took their demo to MicroSoft.  MicroSoft liked what they saw and gave them the funding they needed to get the game finished and onto the market.   Turbine  was born and the rest is history.  

BTW - The Wright Brothers - the guys that built the first powered airplane that actually sustained flight - started out building bycicles.   They learned their craft of building airplanes as they went.   Thye didn't graduate from college with an aeronautical engineering degree.

Sometimes - great things come from unexpected places.  

I honestly dont understand why you're posting this rant. So what if he doesnt have a degree, anyone can make games if they want, heck anyone can do whatever they please. And you cant compare minecraft with an mmorpg, different genre and game. There's a reason why only man was able to make minecraft and not an mmorpg.

I welcome Greed Monger, it's a breath of fresh air in the industry.

Anyway, not gonna put more effort into this thread, it just feels like OP has some sort of hidden agenda here.

Originally posted by Nacario

I honestly dont understand why you're posting this rant. So what if he doesnt have a degree, anyone can make games if they want, heck anyone can do whatever they please. And you cant compare minecraft with an mmorpg, different genre and game. There's a reason why only man was able to make minecraft and not an mmorpg.

I welcome Greed Monger, it's a breath of fresh air in the industry.

Anyway, not gonna put more effort into this thread, it just feels like OP has some sort of hidden agenda here.

I would say his agenda is very plainly stated. 

He wants to get the word out that people without degrees aren't qualified to work. 

That is not what I said at all, Uhwop, it's people like who sadly have an inability to read fully that make these discussions go down a far more illogical and silly road because you can't really understand a civil discussion, instead you just clog it with twisted words and quotes out of context and not reading the follow-ups to my points.  I am sorry for your inability to read, but if that is all you gathered from my post -- so be it, luckily not everyone was at your level and it was good talking to others (who can read), and I thank everyone for their replies.

I know the post wasn't needed, but in a sense you must understand as a funder I didn't know much of this information before Appleton kind of got into some forum-battle, then I started to read up on it, and some of the facts.  You have to realize for some people who didn't investigate the game, but invested a small amount to help, feel somewhat duped.  Especially when you find out the Lead Designer used fake Facebook accounts to get more popularity, it all seems to flimsy and shady.  It wasn't something I wanted involved with.

That's my personal opinion, and I do blame myself for not taking better initiative to looking into the company and designers themselves.  In the end though, there's just been a lot of backing out from Kickstart (8000+ people), and I wanted to explain one side.  You may say, "Well those things are so trivial, who cares?"  I care, I care because if I can't trust a developer and leader, I just don't want to trust my money to that person.  Others may be more trusting, but to me it's earned, not given.  No matter what people will take what you say and hear it how they please, they'll accuse me of character asssination, secondary agendas, and hating the game.  I don't, and I can't refute everyone's statement, merely just shrug it off.  If that is what people think my goal was, sorry to mislead you, it wasn't.  

Greg Street, Raph Koster, Gabe Newell, and many others would like to have a word with the OP about "Game Designer" degrees...

Personally I think game leadership/organizational capability is way greater than any paid for designer degree, or any non-technical/academic degrees for that matter, since they are skills that cannot be learned through lectures and exams.

**Please read here if you only read one paragraph of my post (Krage/Uhwop)  In regards to the "degree" in game design**

Again -- you should read the thread, I've addressed that point several times and I never state because they don't have a game design degree doesn't mean they can't lead a game.  I did state someone with such little background often can come off as sloppy and amateurish without a background in game design and having previous projects under their belt, which is how I see Appleton and Greed Monger.  I think he lacks a certain professionalism that he would of acquired better if he had more training and experience in the game world.  

I make no mention of needing a degree, you're just looking for something to pick out of a long post to dwell on that isn't true, sorry but it's just poor reading skills or ... well, I don't know what else -- I guess just poor reading skills.  No where do I state he is required to have a game design degree in order to be an efficent and good leader.  I don't believe that, I know many freelancer workers with no game design degree and working on games.  Again, I never said that, if that's how you read it (and then you fail to read everything else) then I am sorry for you.  

Again -- I don't care if he has a degree, but I did mention he didn't have one.  I mentioned he has a mixed up background that didn't really dwell much into gaming and coding.  It seemed like he hopped careers every year, and that this was just a "phase" for him.  He listed off more career jobs than most people have, which had me greatly concerned that he was really "serious" to be in the gaming industry.  I can't stress and say it enough that I don't think a degree matters, but I think if he had more experience in gaming industry he wouldn't come off as so brash and would have a more proper professional attitude, instead he comes across as just a regular guy -- and in some posts in Greed Monger forums and another forum he posts at he even goes as far to insult people and "troll."  

Originally posted by JamesP
Ok can everyone involved please just drop it! Our KickStarter is over with. Continuing on this discussion isn't going to amount to anything. It's pretty clear to see that we have a large following of dedicated members who want to help us get this game released based on the fact that we more then tripled our goal. We are moving forward with development inspite of what might be being said about us. If you don't want to back us then that's fine it's your choice but coming here and posting and arguing is really doing no one any good. What mistakes we as a team have made in the past are in the past let's just focus on the future and getting this game released!

I hope your game does well, as I said.  If it is released ever I will try it out, but I do think you need to relook at your Public Relations and hire someone to handle that for you.  Jason Appleton likely has another side that you all see and understand, but to a random investor like myself who never met him -- I don't feel ensured by anything he says.  That YouTube interview made me have so many more questions and doubts of the project because of his responses to many things.  

The game concept sounds "new" to a degree, I think there's games like it, but it seems fun, but overall I think the way your team is perceived and reputation is kept is important to your success.  Going to such lengths like Appleton did to join another game's forum and start a fight is uncalled for, and his answers about using fake Facebook people to get more noticed isn't very trusting.  

I will hopefully end here with this post.  I do wish you guys luck, I do want more creative MMOs out there, but I think like many others (As Greed Monger has stated there was a lot of funding and backers who left), there is just a level of doubt.  I was on board when I didn't know Appleton, let me put it that way.  I was probably better off with the wool over my eyes and believing what I wanted, and when I saw the actual truth I was skeptic and doubtful.  My goal here wasn't to bash your game, I never listed off any negative things about the game itself -- because it's not the game I have issues with.  The game looks like it could be something, but if the management is under such a weird and odd control I don't think it's the game for me.   

Originally posted by Brigander

**Please read here if you only read one paragraph of my post (Krage/Uhwop)  In regards to the "degree" in game design**

 

Again -- you should read the thread, I've addressed that point several times and I never state because they don't have a game design degree doesn't mean they can't lead a game.  I did state someone with such little background often can come off as sloppy and amateurish without a background in game design and having previous projects under their belt, which is how I see Appleton and Greed Monger.  I think he lacks a certain professionalism that he would of acquired better if he had more training and experience in the game world.  

 

I make no mention of needing a degree, you're just looking for something to pick out of a long post to dwell on that isn't true, sorry but it's just poor reading skills or ... well, I don't know what else -- I guess just poor reading skills.  [b]No where do I state he is required to have a game design degree in order to be an efficent and good leader.[/b]  I don't believe that, I know many freelancer workers with no game design degree and working on games.  Again, I never said that, if that's how you read it (and then you fail to read everything else) then I am sorry for you.  

This is your quote "Jason Appleton isn't a game designer, he doesn't have a degree in game design or coding.  He also has no prior game industry experience besides merely PLAYING games, which everyone has, but that doesn't make you capable of leading a team.  Yes, he may have experience in leadership and marketting, but it is not the same."

It implies his lack of degree or coding knowledge eliminates him from being a game designer. Then you sort of contradict by saying his experience of playing games does not make him capable of leading a team, although he has experience in leadership and marketing. 

Your opinion from what I gathered from that first part of your post is he is not qualified to design a game due to his lack of experience and degree, which is fine since it is your opinion. I simply posted some very successful game developers who did not have game design experience or game designer degrees.

As for you elaborating and saying he lacks professionalism which would be increased from industry experince that is probably true, although his level of professionalism varies from what others posted on their opinions of his professionalism.

My reading comprehension is fine, perhaps my explanation shows how I came to my conclusion based on your OP so perhaps if several people "misread" your post or lack "reading comprehension" its more of a failure on your part?

As for the rest of the entire OP its all legitimate concerns, I have no horse in this race. 

My wording was poor in that paragraph, but I explain about his professionalism later in the post and I think I even relate that back to not having the experience in the game industry.  Again, the full post.  

I also clarified that same exact a post a few pages back before you questioned it, but you must not of read all my replies.   I don't blame you though, theres 5+ pages.  I apologize for insulting you reading abilities, it's just annoying that I have clarified that several times, and it just keeps coming up.  It's like putting words in my mouth.  

Originally posted by Brigander
My wording was poor in that paragraph, but I explain about his professionalism later in the post and I think I even relate that back to not having the experience in the game industry.  Again, the full post.  

I just edited my last response to include "As for the rest of the entire OP its all legitimate concerns, I have no horse in this race."

I read the full thing and it is a reasonable critique, I didnt want to seem combative, just posting on that single point of degrees because its the only disagreement I saw for discussion on this forum thread.

Originally posted by JamesP
Ok can everyone involved please just drop it! Our KickStarter is over with. Continuing on this discussion isn't going to amount to anything. It's pretty clear to see that we have a large following of dedicated members who want to help us get this game released based on the fact that we more then tripled our goal. We are moving forward with development inspite of what might be being said about us. If you don't want to back us then that's fine it's your choice but coming here and posting and arguing is really doing no one any good. What mistakes we as a team have made in the past are in the past let's just focus on the future and getting this game released!

Good luck with your large following.  Asking people to just drop the discussion doesn't seem very PR friendly.   Maybe you guys should spend some of your purchasing-art assets money for a PR rep instead.

Originally posted by Brigander

Originally posted by JamesP
Ok can everyone involved please just drop it! Our KickStarter is over with. Continuing on this discussion isn't going to amount to anything. It's pretty clear to see that we have a large following of dedicated members who want to help us get this game released based on the fact that we more then tripled our goal. We are moving forward with development inspite of what might be being said about us. If you don't want to back us then that's fine it's your choice but coming here and posting and arguing is really doing no one any good. What mistakes we as a team have made in the past are in the past let's just focus on the future and getting this game released!

 

 

I hope your game does well, as I said.  If it is released ever I will try it out, but I do think you need to relook at your Public Relations and hire someone to handle that for you.  Jason Appleton likely has another side that you all see and understand, but to a random investor like myself who never met him -- I don't feel ensured by anything he says.  That YouTube interview made me have so many more questions and doubts of the project because of his responses to many things.  

The game concept sounds "new" to a degree, I think there's games like it, but it seems fun, but overall I think the way your team is perceived and reputation is kept is important to your success.  Going to such lengths like Appleton did to join another game's forum and start a fight is uncalled for, and his answers about using fake Facebook people to get more noticed isn't very trusting.  

 

 

I will hopefully end here with this post.  I do wish you guys luck, I do want more creative MMOs out there, but I think like many others (As Greed Monger has stated there was a lot of funding and backers who left), there is just a level of doubt.  I was on board when I didn't know Appleton, let me put it that way.  I was probably better off with the wool over my eyes and believing what I wanted, and when I saw the actual truth I was skeptic and doubtful.  My goal here wasn't to bash your game, I never listed off any negative things about the game itself -- because it's not the game I have issues with.  The game looks like it could be something, but if the management is under such a weird and odd control I don't think it's the game for me.   

This thread sounds like your on a witch hunt... I don't get why people think they have the right to follow someone on every forum to post something, don't you have something better to do???

What he did was unprofessional yes, but get over it, or do not play the game or back it... I wish for once gamers would make there own games, so people can tear apart what  they say or do.. I do have my degree in Game Production and more then qualified to run a buisness, as I have owned my own, .... But I would never make a MMO, because I feel people are to whiney and picky about silly things.

I rather make small scales games and have been, and work for smaller companys than deal with whiney people. I don't get why people feel that a company owes them everything. I have seen over the years DEVS be 100% honest they get bashed for it, and I have seen them lie they get bashed, I  have seen them not say awhole lot they get bashed, its a tought buisness no matter how to conduct your self or do things in the gaming world, your dealing with gamers........People today are way differnt than they where 10 years ago, people today think DEVS owe them everything and for free...

I wish Jason and his team the best, and don't get caught up with people on this forum, they complain to complain about everything....

@MMORPG, this thread has offended alot of people and should of been locked a long time ago.

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Brigander

No, I expected this community to know how to read a whole post, actually.  I guess you, and others, failed to do that, no offense. Having a game design or game design backgound isn't required (as I am saying this now for a third time), but I PERSONALLY feel more assured if someone has a history in game design, not someone who just is doing this spontaneously out of the blue with prior projects and history of development, nor codes, models, or really does any actual developing.  

 

I am not saying that will deteremine a game's success, but I am saying that I think his lack of being in the industry shows more than his actual development team, because he's overly vocal and aggressive to the point where you can tell his level of professionalism is low, and for ME (PERSONALLY) I just am turned off by that.  It makes me feel like he's not that serious about the project, that he's too reckless to really be thinking about the consequences of his actions, and those actions so far have lost him 8000+ backers.  

 

 

 

Edit: Uhwop sorry to be rude about this, but I can't keep replying to people have a failure to read past the first paragraph, good day, and good luck reading the entire thread before making a rather repetitive post that others have already touched on and been discussed.  You're like the kid shows up to class late and has to be brought up to speed.  

 I actually read your entire post.  I do get it, and don't blame you for being skeptical.  Seriously, I wouldn't give the guy money, but not for your reasons.

I'm a self-taught artist, and it's not arrogance or cockiness that allows me to say that there is no kid in art school learning traditional art that knows more than me or can paint better than me just because they're in art school. 

Telling anyone, I don't care how horrible they may be, that they aren't qualified without a degree is unacceptable.  Saying something after the fact means little to me, when I can go to your OP and there it is. 

Right this moment, the very first bullet point.  "He's not qualified because he doesn't have a degree".  You are wrong for writting that. 

I want to comment on this, I do have a Degree and this person is corret, not everyone in this buisness have to have a degree at all... So many can be self taught and be way better, I have met people at school and at the end of there degree that can't even Model a house, which is easy as heck...... They barely know how to Unwrap a model, texture etc, now there are people who never went to school that could work circles around others without  a degree..

/Amen,

PS, I went to school because you can learn more , and faster from being around a group of others yes, but its all about what you put into it, and alot of companys look at Portifolio's rather than a degree those are facts.

School  is also a great way to make connections I started making games with people at school. and making money doing so. But can you do this outside of school yes...

Well, I did not want to support this in the first place for similar reasons.

There are all kinds of bad 'smells' all over this project.

Originally posted by hfztt

Well, I did not want to support this in the first place for similar reasons.

There are all kinds of bad 'smells' all over this project.

bad smells, is an understatement, so many red flags all over this, i was sceptical at first i'll admit, but after reading the OPs post, i have to wonder if this appleton guy is some kind of scam artist or something, it just sounds so dodgy. Kickstarter is probably the only chance some game developers will ever get to produce a game, it only takes a couple of scams to rake in cash from it, to turn people against it. Hope im wrong but, my gut is telling me theres something screwy there.