Originally posted by LhynnSaint

The problem with healing is not the shattered suspension of disbelief, its just that it takes all the drama away from the fight, it becomes by the numbers, not only that, BECAUSE there is healing, bosses have to hit like trucks, otherwise his damage will be outhealed, and that means that the tank cant feel thought, after all hed be dead if he took those blows without the safety belt that is the healer, the others feel like they mean nothing, after all, even with the healer curing them they would still go down in a couple hits, the boss feels stupid, because hes not hitting the dude thats making all this possible (the healer).

oh and the healer... he mostly gets bored, an exepcion are those freaks that actually enjoy clicking their heals as fast as they can (granted, in some games there is a high degree of skill involved in healing, that doesnt make it any less idiotic).

Spam-healing  others is gamey, and devalues every single aspect of the combat only because its there. Got nothing agaist self heals tho, or out of combat healing.

thats basically how i feel and why gw2 healing works.. its like applying a bandaid or turniquet.. it doesn't completely heal you and you still have to be careful.. and there are specific tools to remove conditions and not really too many all in ones... where ur conditions are removed and you are fully healed.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

 

you missunderstand my definition of realism.. realism is based on the ip.... if you are talking dnd/forgotten realms.. healing isn't instant and is mostly done with potions.  healers do heal.. but they don't restore full health. so what you are saying doesn't really apply.

 

edit: your idea about the actual system makes sense.. except for the fact that the games i've played with other char types.. most ppl still choose to go with the trinity.... instead of 1 tank and 1 healer or such.. they double up to be more effective...

they tend to go 1 tank 2 dps 2 heals/ 2 tanks 2heals 1 dps.. most don't make use of the crowd control and other char classes.

Then I did indeed misunderstand you. I agree that the implementation of healing is a bit over-the-top in fantasy games, but that's mostly because of limited dev creativity or limited willingness for players to understand things. Things like magical shields and pre-emptive healing by crippling the boss, enchanting armour and other means of shielding/supporting a party so that it takes less to no damage is something very often seen and mostly used by tanks. This is what is quite off about it, because it should really be the caster being able to shield the damage and having the tank there to enable the healer/shielder to do its job by distracting the threat to the party.

Originally posted by Freezzo

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

 

you missunderstand my definition of realism.. realism is based on the ip.... if you are talking dnd/forgotten realms.. healing isn't instant and is mostly done with potions.  healers do heal.. but they don't restore full health. so what you are saying doesn't really apply.

 

edit: your idea about the actual system makes sense.. except for the fact that the games i've played with other char types.. most ppl still choose to go with the trinity.... instead of 1 tank and 1 healer or such.. they double up to be more effective...

they tend to go 1 tank 2 dps 2 heals/ 2 tanks 2heals 1 dps.. most don't make use of the crowd control and other char classes.

Then I did indeed misunderstand you. I agree that the implementation of healing is a bit over-the-top in fantasy games, but that's mostly because of limited dev creativity or limited willingness for players to understand things. Things like magical shields and pre-emptive healing by crippling the boss, enchanting armour and other means of shielding/supporting a party so that it takes less to no damage is something very often seen and mostly used by tanks. This is what is quite off about it, because it should really be the caster being able to shield the damage and having the tank there to enable the healer/shielder to do its job by distracting the threat to the party.

that sounds interesting.. include the tanks ability to use skills like shield bash to keep the target off balance therefore preventing it from shifting agro.. such mechanics are implemented in some games i've played and it increases immersion.. but often its not enough and the heals are over the top.

Originally posted by Iselin

Dissing the traditional tank and spank is all the rage today. All the cool kids hate it. The trinity system has been around for a long time since it replaced the "quad" when a specialized CC'er/buffer was also required. It must be time for a change right? "New" is better don'tyaknow.

The biggest problem with Trinity combat is the tank part, not the healer part.  Or more to the point, that mobs use an aggro system to determine who they attack, so that success in combat is primarily about tricking mobs into behaving in extraordinarily stupid ways.

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Originally posted by Quizzical

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Originally posted by Iselin Dissing the traditional tank and spank is all the rage today. All the cool kids hate it. The trinity system has been around for a long time since it replaced the "quad" when a specialized CC'er/buffer was also required. It must be time for a change right? "New" is better don'tyaknow.

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The biggest problem with Trinity combat is the tank part, not the healer part.  Or more to the point, that mobs use an aggro system to determine who they attack, so that success in combat is primarily about tricking mobs into behaving in extraordinarily stupid ways.

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Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Quizzical

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The biggest problem with Trinity combat is the tank part, not the healer part.  Or more to the point, that mobs use an aggro system to determine who they attack, so that success in combat is primarily about tricking mobs into behaving in extraordinarily stupid ways.

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I agree, aggro mechanics are kinda lame. I always thought a tank should be a major cc class using tons of stuns snares, roots etc. Pin down mobs, throw shields, drag a mob around by the leg while choking another one to death. I would roll a tank in a heartbeat with those types of mechanics.

 

I agree, and me too.

I also kinda liked how healing in combat in D&D was sort of awkward, which made healing in combat an emergency-only thing. Often healing is too easy, too simple. I much prefer the approach Arenanet took with GW1 and 2 where defence is not only healing, but also avoiding and preventing incoming damage. It makes it much more engaging and active. Much more interesting.

Get a mate to show you PVE healing in dungeons and raids on The Secret World and see what you think. No res, massive boss damage, unique mechanics and limited resources to heal with offers quite a satisfying challenge.

It was certainly time for something new. But I do not think the decision to give everyone healing had anything to do with creating a new combat dynamic.

Healing classes are seen as something that makes it harder to solo. If you are not a healing class you have to rest and heal. If you are a healing class you take a long time to down a mob. So to make MMO’s ever more casual and solo friendly healing for all was introduced. They did not announce it like that in press releases mind you. :)

I am all for something new in gameplay but you tell me the change in combat dynamics over the last five years that has not been made to make MMO’s more solo friendly? Certainly none have made new MMO's less solo friendly. That would be design heresy in an easyMMO.

Originally posted by Lonzo

I as a hardcore support/heal player am very disappointed with the trend MMOs go these days. Everyone can heal a bit and it is all about DPSing. I give a ***** shit about DPSING, i want to heal a real tank and my group. I want oldschool Health and Manabars and nothing else.

Stop the experiments! Go hardcore and oldschool DEVS!

 

EQ1: Cleric

EQ2: Templar

WOW: Heal Pala

Hi Lonzo,

I actually didn't read all the replies up to here. But its probably anyway the same stuff as always. You know, the "healing is boring", "healers are arrogant", " don't want to lfg for a healer" etc.

So I skipped that and just want to say that I agree with you. Played the same classes as you in EQ1/2 and it was great. Challenging, fun and rewarding. Great times.

Unfortunately the newer MMOs I played mostly follow the "dps them till they are dead" scheme. So I switched to dps. But compared to old EQ times that is not nearly as much fun or challenging.

So you are not alone. ;)

How about a mechanic like in SWG where you went to a Doctor before (and after) combat in order to get buffs to help you succeed. They would also help cure you afterwards, if you were wasted too much.

There was also a Combat Medic class that would help people stay alive in combat, but when you were defeated your stats would be reduced and require the Doctor / Entertainer (possibly for mind) if I remember correctly, to be reset to maximum. Didn't play either of those fields myself.

The people who hate on the trinity model (it was more like quad or more in EQ), should come up with a viable alternative before they shoot it down.

And no, soloing or making all classes DPS is not a viable alternative.

People complain they couldn't find a healer or tank, that's not the game's fault, that's how the system works, it creates dependency, you are forced to engage with people and socialise. Unless the game falls below a treshold of a handful of people, the trinity model is amazing.

Originally posted by Quizzical.

The biggest problem with Trinity combat is the tank part, not the healer part.  Or more to the point, that mobs use an aggro system to determine who they attack, so that success in combat is primarily about tricking mobs into behaving in extraordinarily stupid ways.

You should try Vindictus, the game has no aggro whatsoever, the mob can attack anyone, there is no tank in the game, no way to daw aggro.

The game is also a zergfest without any teamwork or socialising whatsoever.

All the games that did not use the trinity models have for me been zergfests, sorry if I'm not jumping at the thought of removing the trinity model for solo fests.

Originally posted by LhynnSaint

Originally posted by Iselin

Snip

Age of Wushu is handling it really well.

And its actually quite simple, you make players a lot tougher, you make some of the damage they take and deal incurable, and you make them being able to get out of the fight without taking damage too much damage, or being able to recover if they go in the defensive.

You fuck up, youll probably die, you dont, youll probably live. You have player characters have certain sinergies, you dont force them to work together, you reward them for doing so, and the better they work together the smoother it will all be.

you make players need eachother outside of combat  as well, and you make them grow outside of combat. when all you do is fight it stops being special. crafting is as good a mean as any to achieve that.

Swotor almost did it right. Had it only given everyone a single crew skill, global for your account, it would have stimulated interaction a great deal.

Im not saying "get rid of the trinity", just saying, a lot of games would benefit from not having it. Simply because people need diferent flavors. so you dont feel like you are playing the same game with different graphic style.

 

Variety is good.

Yup, anyone who has not played this game and likes their MMOs to have depth and no hand holding really needs to play the next beta. For some reason MMORPG.COM is not really promoting the game other than an odd mention, they didn't even play the beta that has just gone.

They made an odd mention about a feature they have heard about but not even tried, i guess devs need to cough up some cash before they get real coverage on these gaming sites.

Away from that i still like the trinity system though.

I personally like the trinity+ as well. Also I always found DPSers to actually be kind of divas if they thought they were good at it. Then again all the roles get those people, they just strike me as the most vocal usually. 

A lot of people on these forums want less solo-centric MMOs and the trinity provides that by giving dependence to complete content but I suppose they want a different system to be the impetus behind the grouping. 

I play GW2 but I don't particularly like the rolelessness of the dungeons. The aggro pinballing and how the group functions always makes it seem like a subpar experience to me, though I do like the game as a whole.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

I think you miss the point.. classless roles are there for a reason... its more "realistic" no medical technician has the ability in real life or fantasy  to make someone completely healthy in like ten seconds while in combat... combat is boring and requires little movement or maneuvering.. in real life thats not the case... gw2 and other games are more realistic... therefore a healer is not necessary.

Realism is it? Ok, let's have amputees and dead is dead... and no fireballs coming out your fingers either... scratch magic... and super stealth in well-lit open places... forget assassins (no great loss there :) ) realism is a slippery slope. Let's talk gameplay and game systems not realism please.

You can have realism in a fantasy setting. It not a slippery slope at all. Having someone go completly stealthy and have people shoot fireball from there fingers is not unrealistic in a fantasty setting. Now having a human fall from a big distance without something (magical of phisical) catching him and he does not die is also in a fantasy setting unrealistic

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

if it fits within the lore its real.... if you can show me an ip with instant perfect health than it is viable.

I do not understand what you mean. So a gaming company has to wait for a book to come out before it can create it own lore where it possible or something? Games are lore on there own. Anyhow you want lore to make instant healing viable. Read the bible or other religious lore and a lot of poeple (billions?) actually believe it to be true and possible. 

I love how they implemented healers in Vanguard.

They have low dps, but they are quite sturdy solo, so you dont depend upon having a party that much. And even when in party, healers are much more interactive. You have to go through sequences of attacks to install group buffs or execute special heals, or do special finishers for extra buffs and healing. The only exception for mechanisms like this is the Shaman, who however has the largest array of debuffs in the whole game - in most cases in group, I never managed to install all debuffs on the mob before the mob was already gone again.

Of course there are always these situations where you have to focus on healing exclusively, like the OP demanded. But in general its much more interesting.

I hated it how Lineage II did it - at highlevel my Shillien Elder was completely useless solo, even against undead. And it was indeed a "classic" healer as the OP described it - mindnumbing boring, just watch hitpoint bars, and buff your fellow allies - without ever doing anything else at all.

It got worse after I left though, they removed a lot of the Shillien Elders ability to heal, so they had been turned into pretty pointless buffbots. Not sure why they thought thats a good idea, but whatever.

Originally posted by Rimmersman

 

Yup, anyone who has not played this game and likes their MMOs to have depth and no hand holding really needs to play the next beta. For some reason MMORPG.COM is not really promoting the game other than an odd mention, they didn't even play the beta that has just gone.

 

They made an odd mention about a feature they have heard about but not even tried, i guess devs need to cough up some cash before they get real coverage on these gaming sites.

 

Away from that i still like the trinity system though.

Massively gave it a full coverage.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Quirhid
But it was so mindnumbingly boring! And its been done to death.

look at the games she played, healing in those games was anythinb but boring, especially not raids

the only thing I don't know about is WoW, but in EQ1 as a healer you were carried on rosepedals, people loved a good cleric

clerics were also the best powerlevers because of their reverse damage shield

well then we have a prob :)

if that was done in EQ already, there obviously NEVER was a time when healers didnt do dmg  :P