I put some money into the tech demo Kickstarter, because I liked their ideas, and figured raising 50k to put together a tech demo to attract investors was a sensible and realistic goal.

But now.. they say "we have secured the financing we need to put the game into production". But they want another million from crowdsourcers? Because they don't want to answer "to some investor who is only interested in how quickly they can get a return on their investment"? But "most of the budget is being provided by our initial investors"?

I dunno. It doesn't quite add up. Not to mention that a million bucks really won't go very far at all towards making a top quality MMO.

I still love the ideas and the design that Goblinworks are pushing, but I think I'll pass on this second Kickstarter, and take a look at the game when and if it is released.

I'm sorry but if they spent 300k to build that tech demo (which looks dated and awkward), I don't think any amount of money will be enough for them to create a good game.

Not backing this one.

Originally posted by Tamanous

Originally posted by Gdemami

[mod edit]

-snip-

I see Gdemami's post was given the [mod edit] treatment - I was going to say, HE was making MY point of questioning if it was a good idea posting this info on mmorog.com in the first place. 

But one driving motivation to consider it worthwhile, is the sheer number of posts & threads on these forums at MMORPG.COM requesting a sandbox fantasy mmorpg to emulate/rival some of what EvE provides for sci-fi. So I think at least Pathfinder Online is of interest, even if it feels steep, risky and somewhat optional to back the kickstarter.

But the dissemination of information on the design of the game is 1st class. They have not revealed information on the middleware tech they are using yet - and bear in mind the demo footage is tech proof of concept eg choreographed animations converting 2d drawings into a 3d virtual environment for investors.

/One to keep your eye on. ;)

Originally posted by Thorbrand

First off Pathfinder Online isn't a sandbox. It is their PnP world made into a MMO. Think of it more like Vanilla EQ more advanced. Don't know if I should donate given how much I give Paizo every month for Pathfinder as it is.

This is one of the games to bring the MMO back to MMOs...LOL! Stop supporting all the other crap!

Pathfinder Online is a sandbox or technically will be a sandbox.  That's the whole point.  It will also be FFA PvP

Originally posted by Nevulus

If there's one company that gets it, it's Paizo.

 

What they did with the D&D 3.5 ruleset is pretty amazing. How they treat their customers is pretty stellar. How this will all translate into a MMO? Who knows. What I do know is had they released a virtual table with a mobile version, I wouldve been just as happy. 

They have a Vitrual Table Top in beta now.  It's called Game Space.  Should be out in a few months.  It will be free to use and they'll sell their game assets for people to use.  It's browser based, so technically I think you could use it on an iPad or something that has an internet connection and a full resourced browser.

 

Originally posted by watchawatcha

Originally posted by Thorbrand

First off Pathfinder Online isn't a sandbox. It is their PnP world made into a MMO. Think of it more like Vanilla EQ more advanced. Don't know if I should donate given how much I give Paizo every month for Pathfinder as it is.

This is one of the games to bring the MMO back to MMOs...LOL! Stop supporting all the other crap!

Pathfinder Online is a sandbox or technically will be a sandbox.  That's the whole point.  It will also be FFA PvP

Originally posted by Nevulus

If there's one company that gets it, it's Paizo.

 

What they did with the D&D 3.5 ruleset is pretty amazing. How they treat their customers is pretty stellar. How this will all translate into a MMO? Who knows. What I do know is had they released a virtual table with a mobile version, I wouldve been just as happy. 

They have a Vitrual Table Top in beta now.  It's called Game Space.  Should be out in a few months.  It will be free to use and they'll sell their game assets for people to use.  It's browser based, so technically I think you could use it on an iPad or something that has an internet connection and a full resourced browser.

 

Forgive me for being a pedant: It's accurate to say it will be "limited open pvp" preferentially to "FFA pvp". More a nuance of emphasis to be sure, but none the less it's a hot button for some because of the problems of "Griefing" even in non-FFA pvp mmos. The 2 may be equivalent in the eyes of someone who does not like any pvp 100% of the time.

This blog is very informative for reference: Goblin Works Blog #4: To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms

For eg, the starter towns (some of them!) will be 100% safe, and various other "towns" will have zone gradations of safety. Then there will be player run territories and that's where it's more like EvE's sec. zones but specific to the behavior of the player communities of an area (as well as interlopers) - Secondly implications of pk'ing differ under different circumstances and conditions so again it's gradated and therefore distinct from some full free-for-all pvp designs. That's the plan in the blog in short.

If this were any company other than Paizo I would be calling this a cash grab, but I have been a loyal supporter of their products for years so I know better.  I gave a hundred to the initial kickstarter, and I will probably give them more on this one.  The quality of their PnP line is top notch, and they focus on making a quality product for their customers.  When Wizards went to 4e they could have easily have shifted to making 4e compatible products, and that would have been the safe route to have taken for safe investment.  Instead they saw that good percentage of the players weren't thrilled by 4e, and were actually quite happy with 3.5.  They focused on the 3.5 crowd.  They listened to us while developing the system, and as a result Pathfinder is an outstanding PnP ruleset.  I see them doing the same thing with Pathfinder Online.  The safe route to guaranteed cash is another over-hyped themepark that makes the money off of initial sales, but not off of sustaining players.  Instead they see that their is a sandbox crowd so they focus toward them.  I don't see the game ever getting WoW numbers, but I do believe that if Paizo treats this as they would their PnP line then it will be a success that focuses towards the players first.  

Found an interesting response over at massively in the comments:

 

You people are such shrills, it was a "technology demo". It was not alpha, it was not beta, it was a very, very simple demonstration of their "capability" to build the game. Expecting AAA graphics and gameplay from a tech demo is a little naive.

Personally, I'm tired of having the next polished turd, which is a copy of the last polished turd, which I hate, and which ultimately fails, shoved in my face. Because investors won't put their money behind anything other than farmville, Kickstarter and similar options, are the only hope we have of getting something other than the next polished turd.

Face it folks, if you want something different, YOU will have to invest in it, because mega-publishers won't.*

 

The KS for Pathfinder is tricky because delivery in years and higher pledge levels of this mmo project and the presentation if you have not been following the blogs it does not stand out compared to other similar pitches promising the same thing.

But I'd highly recommend the blogs for a deep overview of the design intentions and how Goblin Works intend to get Pathfinder there.

Sources:

Goblin Works Blog: https://goblinworks.com/blog/

PCGamer: Pathfinder Online’s second Kickstarter seeks to fast-track player-run kingdoms and more

Massively: Pathfinder Online begins second Kickstarter project

*ignoring titan for now!

Cross-post from Pathfinder Paizo Forums:

 

 

 

Kickstarter Community Thread: Player vs. Player Conflict

The core design guideline for Pathfinder Online is "maximize meaningful human interaction". That principle informs every aspect of the game, in ways large and small.

One of the most important impacts is that your character will be often at risk of encountering other characters in combat, "Player vs. Player".

"Often At Risk" is a key phrase. You will not always be at such risk.

There will be some times and some places where you will be safe from any unwanted PvP activity. In general this will be a condition within powerful NPC Settlements who have the ability to enforce peaceable relations between characters.

There will be other places where the risk will be substantially reduced because the NPCs will be able to react to anyone who makes an unwanted attack against you fast enough to have a high likelihood of killing your attacker before they can kill your character, making such assaults highly uncommon. This kind of protection will primarily be provided when you are in an area near a powerful NPC Settlement.

There will be some places where the NPC response will not be fast enough to stop an attacker from killing your character, but will be fast enough to ensure that the attacker dies as well. This makes it less likely that you will be attacked randomly; rather such attacks will be carefully planned and executed by groups with a sense for the risk/reward of their actions. This level of protection will exist on the edges of NPC controlled territory.

Outside of NPC controlled territory, player character decisions will have a strong influence on how secure a given area is - or is not!

We mention meaningful human interaction. The key is meaningful. Somebody ganking newbies without any consequences isn't meaningful. Somebody getting killed while they transport rare ore for the sword they are building, who then gathers some allies and goes after the attacker after putting a bounty on their head IS meaningful interaction. Both result in the death of a character. The first is something we don't want since it isn't meaningful, the second is something we totally want, because it IS meaningful.

[...]

We're happy to discuss this issue in more detail in this thread, and many members of the community will likely have their own opinions and experiences to share as well!

 

Youtube: Designers Talk PvP

Cross-post from Paizo Forums:

 

Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions

MMOs are a bit different than most video games because they have substantial ongoing operational costs in addition to the cost of their development, and so they require that players continue to pay to play the games after they're released. Pathfinder Online will be no different.

There are two ways that most companies operate the business of their MMO; either subscription or microtransactions.

Pathfinder Online is going to allow players to use both systems. If you wish to pay a flat monthly subscription that's automatically billed to your payment method, you'll be able to do that. Or, if you want to pay as you play in smaller incremental amounts, we'll enable you to do that as well using microtransactions.

[...]

Our goal is for you to be able to play the game at a cost that you're comfortable with, scaling up or down your level of participation based on your purchases.

Our microtransaction system will also allow you to buy some consumables that will make playing the game a bit easier, items that you'll be able to use to make your character look different and interesting, mounts that are distinctive, and other ways of making you stand out from the crowd. Our commitment to the players is that nothing you can purchase with microtransactions will be mechanically superior to the materials created in-game through character activity.

We are also intending to have a system where you can trade game-time with other players for in-game currency. We think systems like this, similar to the PLEX system created by CCP for EVE Online, address a lot of issues with real-money-trading and strikes a good balance between controlling the in-game economy and rewarding players for mastering the game and spending time playing and the interest of some players to increase their enjoyment of the game with real-money purchases.

We're happy to engage with everyone to talk about these plans in as much detail as we can at this stage of development and to hear what the community thinks about this topic as well.

 

A few Kickstarter Announcements (not personally up to scratch on Pathfinder fluff/PnP rules, but the dungeons seem a good product):

Superstar Lineup for the Emerald Spire Announced:

>"I'm super excited to announce today the all-star lineup for the first 12 levels of the Emerald Spire Superdungeon":

• Rich Baker (author of the Birthright campaign setting for D&D)
• Wolfgang Baur (CEO of Open Design, and legendary TSR designer)
• F. Wesley Schneider (Paizo Editor-In-Chief and creator of Ustalav)
• James Sutter (Paizo Fiction Editor and creator of Kaer Maga)
• Lisa Stevens (CEO of Paizo, and co-founder of White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast)
• Keith Baker (Creator of the Eberron campaign setting for D&D)
• Ed Greenwood (Creator of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting for D&D)
• Erik Mona (Publisher and co-creator of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting)
• Mark Rein-Hagen (Co-founder of White Wolf Publishing, author of Ars Magica, Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Wraith: The Oblivion, and Changeling: The Dreaming)
• Jason Bulmahn (Lead designer of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and co-creator of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting)
• Frank Mentzer (Founder of the RPGA, co-author of The Temple of Elemental Evil, author of D&D boxed sets)
• James Jacobs (Creative Director and creator of the Pathfinder Adventure Path and Varisia)

& a "daily deal" on in-game items fluff also... From 16th Dec

 

Kick-a-thon, Cycle 2 — PART 07 - with Ryan Dancey (30mins, youtube)

I think a lot of people are already sold on this being the messiah of MMO's based upon Paizos past and not exactly what is being brought to the table. My question is this and really really think about it. We all want an amazing mmo to come or we all wouldnt be on mmorpg to find new and exciting games, correct? But what im flabbergasted by is how quickly people have jumped on this games bandwagon. When i read they were planning this game I needless to say was excited. When they did the first kickstarter i was a bit taken. The first thought was why does an established company need crowdfunding??? I didnt buy into then but i was still like i want to see where this leads. But then we come to this second kickstarter. ( Dont worry ill get to my questions lol, ima ramblin lol) From what i cant tell they have a team setup an obviously they have already invested a lot into it so why the second kickstarter?? To me it just seems a way to pay salaries and not to hurry the production. The game is slated for release in 2016, not exactly light speed> not that i want a game to be produced fast , i want it produced solid,but that seems no faster than anything. So whats the release date if they dont hit the million 2020? I hardly think so, so I feel that its a salary grab for their team which is a crappy thing to lay on players. What to me proves that is a few things look at since the second kickstarters inception that they have added so many little "rewards" they are not rewards they are a way to sell you junk to get your money, i mean guys look at the high end rewards i hope to God that if i pay 10000 dollars to a company for an investment i get more than a set of minis, imo anyone over a 300 dollar mark should get a lifetime sub or some kind of reward based on their sub model to compensate but all i see is minis and beta access and your toon goes into the game for good to me at least those feel like empty rewards for so much money for a game you will still have to pay for when it comes out. SOrry i am sort of rambling but a lot of what is going on with this saddens and infuriates me. I feel like its an abuse of the great tool kickstarter should be for the gaming community. Not just pay our temas salries for the next 3-4 years so we dont have to and charge you for our game after. While granted if the game comes out i hope its everything we hope it will be, but as a gamer for almost 25 years, arent we as gamers tired of hearing the same worn down promises of this will be everything you have ever wanted in a game? Its that long dead horse and i feel they are beating it to a pulp. All i see in their kickstarter and vids is a bunch of people who are excited about pathfinder online for the players because they see the gold piling up at their feet. I would be so excited to on my weekly youtube posts like they are. Finally and most disturbing is the fact that this game wont be out til 2016 and so many folks are prepping and guilding up for it, i mean i plan on playing videogames for the next 60 years til i die but i have no clue what my interests will even be in 4 years im kind of saddened by anyone who makes plans 4 years ahead of time that doesnt end with you having a college degree. This was a long post with a lot of junk but if you can read between the lines there is some food for thought in there too anyone someone explain it to me any of this craziness i posted. :)

Originally posted by Wenchesnmead

they are not rewards they are a way to sell you junk to get your money, i mean guys look at the high end rewards i hope to God that if i pay 10000 dollars to a company for an investment i get more than a set of minis

=

Finally and most disturbing is the fact that this game wont be out til 2016 and so many folks are prepping and guilding up for it

I managed to format your post to be readable (separate lines) and cut the 2 questions out to respond to, which are very reasonably put:

1/ They are not selling junk to you (s), but there are people who have different values as per many other ks campaigns who do pay for such. I remember seeing coffee selling for a huge price and wondered why it cost so much: Civet poo coffee: The beans had passed through this animal for a unique flavor!  Eg the art pledge level IS worth a lot to some people - who perhaps collect (fantasy) art - if it sells.

2/ If the ks is funded beta or early enrollment (as it's not an actual beta test) will see players play at beginning of 2014, assuming no major delays - remember it's sandbox and it will be lean launch.

Hope that is informative.

To address the general question, Pathfinder Online has plenty of risks of not working out, as with many mmorpgs, but I like the idea of fantasy EvE mmorpg design mixed with a fantasy version of Game Of Thrones mixed with the classic DnD style rpg adventure world stuff, personally.

If you read the design blogs (in front page) there is some very interesting design ideas. 

Crowdforging #2: Poll: Kickstarter Land Rush Leaderboard:

The Kickstarter Land Rush Promotion

This Leaderboard will determine the order that initial Settlements will be created in Pathfinder Online during the Early Enrollment period. After a suitable amount of time has elapsed in Early Enrollment for players to get a sense of the available territory and the relative merits of the initial Hexes available, we will conduct a draft for Territory.

The Guild with the highest Membership total will draft first, the second highest Membership will draft second, etc. These Membership totals will be finalized as a part of the post-Kickstarter survey process so final totals will not be available until after that process has completed. This Leaderboard should give Guilds a sense of where they stand in relation to other Guilds during the Kickstarter and it will help them track how effective they've been at recruiting Guild members to join the promotion.

The First Settlements

During Early Enrollment we will not have the Territorial Control game mechanic implemented. During this period, Settlements will not face the threat of being displaced by hostile forces. Near the end of Early Enrollment we will be expanding the territory in the game to include a lot of unclaimed Hexes where players will be able to create new Settlements even if they were not participants in this Promotion. After a suitable interval, the Territorial Warfare system will be introduced, and Settlements will begin to vie with one another for Territorial Control.

You'll be provided with a Guild Lodge in your Hex that you can restrict access to and probably some other early buildings as the Settlement system matures.

The entire Settlement system will be implemented incrementally during Early Enrollment so issues of Settlement Charters, Settlement Alignments, Settlement Management, etc. will all be determined later as a part of the Crowdforging process and you need not worry about them for the purposes of this promotion. Until the system is more robustly implemented, these initial Settlements will not affect a character's ability to train skills and gain character abilities.

 

Fear The Boot RPG - Podcast interview: Mark Kalmes, CTO - Goblin Works

Some intelligent questions by the interviewers (always good to see...) and broad discussion on Pathfinder Online with interesting examples of intended gameplay systems:

 

* (1:08) Some breaking news on the Pathfinder MMO: Mark tells us about the upcoming “Guild Land Rush”.

* (5:26) Introducing Mark Kalmes.  City of Heroes (and Villains), the Mastermind, and the game’s shutdown.  Asheron’s Call and Meridian.

* (11:49) Mark’s work in robotics.

* (14:12) The relationship between Goblinworks and Paizo.

* (15:58) How close will the MMO stick to the Pathfinder tabletop rules?  The nature of a class-less, skill-based system.  How characters advance, how they’re capped, and how new players can enter a world alongside well-established ones.

* (32:51) Player-versus-player combat in Pathfinder Online.  The reasoning behind the lack of PVE (or purely consensual PVP) options.  The role of NPC hirelings.  A player-based economy and the importance of inter-player relationships.

* (46:37) Breaking into an established world.  Finding a role for your character and a piece of land for your house.

* (51:09) The consequences of character death.

* (53:36) The relationship between the in-game and real-world economies.  We also talk about active subscriptions versus playing on a lapsed subscription.  The story of Second Life and the IRS.

* (58:41) The number and structure of servers, and the number of accounts per server.  Hurdles put in place to keep one guild from dominating the game world.

* (1:02:17) How the casual and solo players fit into the order of things.

 

Added an info summary thread: Information & Media Summary

Latest update: Pathfinder Online: A Fantasy Sandbox MMO

Including Paizo's own contribution, it currently includes 42 products from 29 different publishers, with a total retail value of $230!  Here is a list of what's currently in our PDF Superpack—publishers are still joining in, so this list could grow even bigger!

$512,272 and counting. 17 days to go.

Today we're announcing a number of incredible upgrades to the $35 Adventurer Reward Tier!

Character Name Reservation:
You'll be able to reserve the name of your first Pathfinder Online character!  As as part of the post-Kickstarter survey process you'll be able to give us your first, second and third choices for your first character name.  They'll be assigned in the order you first backed the project at the $35 Adventurer level or higher.  (If all three of your choices are taken by earlier backers, we'll contact you to arrange for more options!)  We reserve the right to limit the use of certain names for legal, marketing and community management reasons.

The Pathfinder Tabletop RPG Experience:
You'll receive a PDF of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook, and the Guide to the River Kingdoms sourcebook.  Together these two books are a $23.98 value.  The heart and soul of the Pathfinder Online game comes from its tabletop roots, and we're pleased to be able to bring you this benefit thanks to our friends at Paizo Publishing! We also encourage you to join the Pathfinder Society and find a regular gaming group in your area so you can start adventuring in the world of Golarion TODAY!

Destiny's Twin:
As a special feature of Adventurer accounts, you'll be able to have two characters training skills at the same time!  While one character is learning how to master the martial arts and gain renown as a warrior, your other character can be learning the intricacies of the crafting system and earning a name as an industrial powerhouse!  As long as your primary character is earning skill points, so will its counterpart - FOREVER!  The value of this benefit could easily reach hundreds of dollars if you became a long-term player of Pathfinder Online.

(You will not be able to log in and play both of these characters at the same time)

As always, if you pledge at a higher Reward Tier, and that tier includes the Adventurer Tier rewards, you'll get all these great benefits as well.  Also note that the PDFs from this enhancement replace the PDFs in the PDF Superpack - they overlap and do not stack.  And of course if you're backing at the Buddy or Guild levels, all the accounts in the Reward will each get these benefits!

*Updated the OP with a Sandbox Feature List:

 

SANDBOX FEATURES @ A GLANCE:

• Player-Player Contracts - replace quests

• Player formed factions - all/any eg as per EVE

• Skill-Training Progression -> 2.5yrs to max level earliest in x1 role only

• Player created settlements -> Each Hex (256) can be conquered and controlled

• Player formed Armies -> Real formations

• Virtual Economy -> full-blown autonomous economy (not simulated)

• Player Crafting item production and PvE Resource Cycle (maj. item creation by players)

• Career Skills as well as Combat Skills (bounty-hunter, bandit, diplomat, tavern owner...)

• Alignment, Reputation, Politics & Open-World PvP (EVE style again)

• NPC Alliances (changes which mobs are friend/foe

• Single-server World map - all game story is shared by all players

...

& more at the blogs: https://goblinworks.com/blog/