Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KhinRunite

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KhinRunite

Granpa misses the days when he can gank and grief other players.

Typical troll response from people who don't understand anything about game design.

We miss the days when MMOs were designed well.

Not really, maybe it's you who don't understand the diversity of people. ..heh, maybe you don't understand the nature of game design.

And for the record, I have and have been ganked. I get the adrenaline rush. I played open world PvP too, but unlike other people, like the OP and maybe you, I acknowledge that this kind of design shouldn't be forced on players, and I believe that those who openly attack other people's tastes should be welcomed with snarky remarks.

Like I said, what's the problem? Are there ZERO OWPvP in the MMORPG.com games list?

You're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

How difficult is it for you to understand that when someone says noninstanced PvP, they aren't always talking about FFA PVP ganking anywhere anytime style PvP? Look up DAoC.

As for instanced PvP, it's not what MMOs do best. Competetive ladder style everything even FPS rounds PvP is done best by games like LoL. MMOs should focus on large scale PvP. Focusing on instanced PvP is just as big a waste of potential as an MMO focusing on instanced singleplayer storylines. Genres exist already for people who like that stuff, leave MMOs to what MMOs do well. Large scale multiplayer.

You're 32 years old and have almost 1000 posts in 2 months. I don't think you understand what real life is. Go get some fresh air for Christ sakes.

Nothing wrong with instanced pvp.  Infact, may players prefer organize, balanced competitive play over chaotic zerg vs zerg mentality.

Both are fun, but sometimes you just want to play a game where skill determines the winner, not numbers.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KhinRunite

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KhinRunite

Granpa misses the days when he can gank and grief other players.

Typical troll response from people who don't understand anything about game design.

We miss the days when MMOs were designed well.

Not really, maybe it's you who don't understand the diversity of people. ..heh, maybe you don't understand the nature of game design.

And for the record, I have and have been ganked. I get the adrenaline rush. I played open world PvP too, but unlike other people, like the OP and maybe you, I acknowledge that this kind of design shouldn't be forced on players, and I believe that those who openly attack other people's tastes should be welcomed with snarky remarks.

Like I said, what's the problem? Are there ZERO OWPvP in the MMORPG.com games list?

You're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

How difficult is it for you to understand that when someone says noninstanced PvP, they aren't always talking about FFA PVP ganking anywhere anytime style PvP? Look up DAoC.

As for instanced PvP, it's not what MMOs do best. Competetive ladder style everything even FPS rounds PvP is done best by games like LoL. MMOs should focus on large scale PvP. Focusing on instanced PvP is just as big a waste of potential as an MMO focusing on instanced singleplayer storylines. Genres exist already for people who like that stuff, leave MMOs to what MMOs do well. Large scale multiplayer.

LOL

At this point you still don't get it. You think that I am like you, just on the opposite side. I am fully aware that OWPvP isn't all about  FFA, full loot, etc. No need to direct me to the ever referenced DAoC. For future reference include UO, Asherons's Call, and SWG to that list. I don't need to hear more about what they used to have..or what you oldbies used to play.

The difference is that I am ACCEPTING OF ALL types of MMOs. I understand that this particular genre is wider than most in terms of scope and features, and it should stay that way. Large scale PvP for MMOs? Sure, that's GREAT, but there's no reason why we can't have instanced arena-type PvP as well. You say there are different genres for a reason, but guess what, people flock to MMORPGs because they find the things they like here, unlike in MMOFPS (no RPG, and a shooter game), MOBA (no persistent customized avatar, plus all you do is...PvP).

MMORPGs shouldn't focus on any one thing as a genre. I believe EACH (MMO) game focusing on their own things is the way to go.

U R Not Hardc0re Nubz We R Teh Hardc0rez  ::pose pose flex::

The story of PvP, since ~1978 (and counting).

Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

 

Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that is isn't completely structured and even is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.

 

Servers should go like this:

Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)

Server #2 PvP (World PvP)

 

I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.

I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.

While were on the subject of instances i would also like to make it clear than instanced PvE is also crap imo. I would much rather see Open world dunguens and raids where you may run into conflict with out groups in the process which makes thing intresting not tomention if there World PvP and the other group farming the dunguens is an enemy faction you can fight for the spot. Makes thing better imo keep you on your toes when anything can happen, instances kinda negates the unexpected and dull down the experience/excitment. I would much rather see a return of the older games like Everquest, No instances at all and openworld PvP (like the PvP team or even FFA pvp but i prefered the 4 team one based on races servers on Everquest)

Originally posted by LizardEgypt

"People like different things."

Which is why there are different genres. Mobas, Shooters, RTS, all 'fair and balanced' and not based solely on player immersion and character progression like MMORPGs are. Why is it so hard for you to understand that? Games like Dota are amazing, I have 1200 hours in Dota 2 beta, HoN, ect, but I would never settle for that style of gameplay in an MMORPG. That's not what I play the games for.

I seriously enjoy how people's counter argument comes from a 'competitive' perspective where they try to pin it on the OP that he isn't capable of fair fights, ect. What the fuck is a fair fight in an MMORPG? Since when does that have to even be considered? I don't want to play moba arena friendslist-instance-teleport 2013 like the rest of you. These F2P instant-gratification games are digging developers an extremely deep hole that is difficult to get out of. It's already difficult to develop an appealing game among the masses of identical shit, let alone develop an appealing game fully knowing the wagon is only stopping by for a month at best before moving on. No wonder all of these games are diving into cash-shop to try to rip us off for as much as they can before we bail.

The things I enjoy in MMORPGs are the things they were designed for, development, community, player-driven content and weight to your actions. In an ideal MMORPG if you're a dickhead everyone knows it and avoids/blacklists you like the plague. In these games where you're cross-server teleporting every 5 seconds no one has a clue who you are or cares. I tried to play Cataclysm and didn't meet one single person worth talking to because they're all minimized playing five other games while they wait for ques to pop. I'm sorry guys, but that isn't an MMO. It's a glorified lobby, that's like Gamespy or something. Even in WoW's earlier days, you knew who your allies and enemies were, the same names popped up in battlegrounds every day and you built a sense of community and competition, you'd then see those same dudes post-BG in a group for UBRS and be able to fight them there on your way. It didn't have weight, but it had community. I could go on a forum and see people talking about what I had done against them in PvP 5 years later.

For the argument against instanced-pvp, I think it had it's place and time; but in my opinion it's been so rinsed-and-washed that it's worthless to keep developing these kinds of games. We have far better arena style games that offer much more in terms of longevity, balance and eSports support - what on earth is the point in turning our subscription based games into these as well? I want to have to think about my actions and consequences. I want to be able to keep tabs on who's been an asshole to me in-game and who's been an ally and care about who's at war with who. An MMO with pvp should feel like a horror game. You want to have to be scared of messing up in the middle of no-where alone trying to farm a rare item, there needs to be risk and reward and a reason to befriend and aid people outside of your need for a priest or a mage. It's unfortunate that a server based game like Day Z or War Z is the most 'MMO' style experience you'll find right now, but even then it ends up being a glorified deathmatch because of the fact there's no sand in the box.

tl;dr: I wrote you guys a book because instanced PVP sucks, and well developed AAA Sandbox games are the only positive future for this genre.

 

 

 

Open World PvP sucks and I'm glad the powers that be don't embrace your pathetic ideology.  How's that for turnabout is fair play?

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by

You're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

How difficult is it for you to understand that when someone says noninstanced PvP, they aren't always talking about FFA PVP ganking anywhere anytime style PvP? Look up DAoC.

As for instanced PvP, it's not what MMOs do best. Competetive ladder style everything even FPS rounds PvP is done best by games like LoL. MMOs should focus on large scale PvP. Focusing on instanced PvP is just as big a waste of potential as an MMO focusing on instanced singleplayer storylines. Genres exist already for people who like that stuff, leave MMOs to what MMOs do well. Large scale multiplayer.

yeah, so are you with your selfish and self absorbed responses.. the mmo genre doesn't belong soley to you and those with the same opinion as you... it belongs to no one.. so go back to your fantasy world.. and leave the real world to open minded ppl.

Hahaha, has someone touched you in one of those special places?  Learn to embrace diversity in the gaming arena or suffer accdordingly.  Your point of view is niche of a niche and not likely to ever be embraced as thoroughly as instance PvP.

Originally posted by f0dell54

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KhinRunite

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KhinRunite

Granpa misses the days when he can gank and grief other players.

Typical troll response from people who don't understand anything about game design.

We miss the days when MMOs were designed well.

Not really, maybe it's you who don't understand the diversity of people. ..heh, maybe you don't understand the nature of game design.

And for the record, I have and have been ganked. I get the adrenaline rush. I played open world PvP too, but unlike other people, like the OP and maybe you, I acknowledge that this kind of design shouldn't be forced on players, and I believe that those who openly attack other people's tastes should be welcomed with snarky remarks.

Like I said, what's the problem? Are there ZERO OWPvP in the MMORPG.com games list?

You're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

How difficult is it for you to understand that when someone says noninstanced PvP, they aren't always talking about FFA PVP ganking anywhere anytime style PvP? Look up DAoC.

As for instanced PvP, it's not what MMOs do best. Competetive ladder style everything even FPS rounds PvP is done best by games like LoL. MMOs should focus on large scale PvP. Focusing on instanced PvP is just as big a waste of potential as an MMO focusing on instanced singleplayer storylines. Genres exist already for people who like that stuff, leave MMOs to what MMOs do well. Large scale multiplayer.

 

You're 32 years old and have almost 1000 posts in 2 months. I don't think you understand what real life is. Go get some fresh air for Christ sakes.

I'm 20, actually. Lots of down time in lecture. But thanks for showing how when instance fans are called out they restort to personal attacks instead of facts or discussion of game design.

Didnt read the whole thread but this is my take on it. Some people love that closed arena style combat instead of huge open pvp. Whats the problem with that? To each his own. Btw when you insult someone byt calling them a carebear you are nothing more then a troll and I cant take you seriously.

As for me i enjoy RVR type battles but dont enjoy games with forced full loot pvp.

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Quizzical
What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.

Thanks for the laughs, I've seen a small group defeat the odds of numbers. Level or gear? people need to learn to get their gear and max level before participating in endgame content such as OPvP, its a joke to enter at level 5 with level 5 gear, no one does that........

"Quality Over Quantity."

All friendly opinions here but I agree with OP, instanced PvP is pure trash.

And how do you avoid owPvP when you're trying to level and someone higher level than you with better gear comes at you and can just 1 shot (or close) you and camp your corpse if he wants? How can you not enter owPvP when it's everywhere and you don't have the choice to not participate? This doesn't make any sense.

I've always preferred instanced PvP since it's a lot easier to get a clean and balanced fight. IMO, its usually there that you will find the best players. Sure owPvP can be fun too but just not in a game where gear matters too much. I mean, I don't mind if someone tries to gank me and I know I can do something, but when your gear stop you from doing anything, its just pure trash. I also love it when you can beat twice the numbers of your group, but it kinda get old fast since you're usually against a bunch of uncoordinated noobs. If they could make a game where your level and gear don't matter at all in the fight, sure the owPvP could be the best thing ever, but I've never seen one and I doubt we will. If it happen, I will surely play.

Originally posted by Quizzical
What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.

Instanced PvP is determined by the same factors...

Look at WoW, all the way up to level cap you have people trolling others in BG's with Heirloom Pieces. SWTOR people that PvP all the time get there PvP sets/mods. RIFT is all about the PvP Gear Grind, getting those Valor Pieces. If your at the low end of the bracket or the high end etc.  

~~~~

No the problems with PVP as a whole right now, instanced or OW, is the major leaps in gear (Green to Blue to Purple to Orange), Its to much of a gap. 

The problem people have with OW PvP is they don't know what Ganking and Griefing actually is. Ganking is taking a soloer down in a group. 1v2..1v4...1vZERG! Ganking is not killing you while your in the middle of fighting a mob... sorry people, when you roll a PvP server you do so in the knowledge that you can be attacked at any time (most games even warn you before you choose the server), learn to fight reset. 

Griefing is not something that is exclusive to PVP, it happens in PvE as well. Ninjaing loot, mobs, quest items, causing you to glitch on something, MPKing (Monster-Player Kill for those that are green to the Genre) etc.   

Ganking/Griefing =/=  A RED Player

As a RED player myself I can't stand gankers and griefers. They make me look bad, obviously or this post wouldn't be needed.  

Bartle was correct when he came out with his psychology of games and what a multiplayer game needed. Killers, Explorers, Achievers, and Socializers. The expanded list as well; Reds...Blues...Crafters...Economists..etc. You need them all to create a healthy well-rounded community.  

We need more BLUES to combat the REDS and you wouldn't see so many people against OWPvP. 

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Quizzical
What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.

Instanced PvP is determined by the same factors...

Look at WoW, all the way up to level cap you have people trolling others in BG's with Heirloom Pieces. SWTOR people that PvP all the time get there PvP sets/mods. RIFT is all about the PvP Gear Grind, getting those Valor Pieces. If your at the low end of the bracket or the high end etc.  

~~~~

No the problems with PVP as a whole right now, instanced or OW, is the major leaps in gear (Green to Blue to Purple to Orange), Its to much of a gap. 

The problem people have with OW PvP is they don't know what Ganking and Griefing actually is. Ganking is taking a soloer down in a group. 1v2..1v4...1vZERG! Ganking is not killing you while your in the middle of fighting a mob... sorry people, when you roll a PvP server you do so in the knowledge that you can be attacked at any time (most games even warn you before you choose the server), learn to fight reset. 

Griefing is not something that is exclusive to PVP, it happens in PvE as well. Ninjaing loot, mobs, quest items, causing you to glitch on something, MPKing (Monster-Player Kill for those that are green to the Genre) etc.   

Ganking/Griefing =/=  A RED Player

As a RED player myself I can't stand gankers and griefers. They make me look bad, obviously or this post wouldn't be needed.  

Bartle was correct when he came out with his psychology of games and what a multiplayer game needed. Killers, Explorers, Achievers, and Socializers. The expanded list as well; Reds...Blues...Crafters...Economists..etc. You need them all to create a healthy well-rounded community.  

We need more BLUES to combat the REDS and you wouldn't see so many people against OWPvP.  

I agree.. but the problem with that is that it is almost impossible to regulate.... no matter how interesting and amazing that would be.. no one can control the ratio of griefers to the ratio of others.. i don't mind owpvp.. but i believe u should be able to turn it off.. not to pick/choose battles but so that you can decide if today you want to participate in pvp.. or today is just a day for crafting and looting/lvling up... without the ability to do so.. at times it will be incredibly difficult to get anything done...

ppl mention grouping and guilds a lot... but your friends will not always be online when you are to protect u.. it defeats the purpose of even having them.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Quizzical
What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.

Instanced PvP is determined by the same factors...

Look at WoW, all the way up to level cap you have people trolling others in BG's with Heirloom Pieces. SWTOR people that PvP all the time get there PvP sets/mods. RIFT is all about the PvP Gear Grind, getting those Valor Pieces. If your at the low end of the bracket or the high end etc.  

~~~~

No the problems with PVP as a whole right now, instanced or OW, is the major leaps in gear (Green to Blue to Purple to Orange), Its to much of a gap. 

The problem people have with OW PvP is they don't know what Ganking and Griefing actually is. Ganking is taking a soloer down in a group. 1v2..1v4...1vZERG! Ganking is not killing you while your in the middle of fighting a mob... sorry people, when you roll a PvP server you do so in the knowledge that you can be attacked at any time (most games even warn you before you choose the server), learn to fight reset. 

Griefing is not something that is exclusive to PVP, it happens in PvE as well. Ninjaing loot, mobs, quest items, causing you to glitch on something, MPKing (Monster-Player Kill for those that are green to the Genre) etc.   

Ganking/Griefing =/=  A RED Player

As a RED player myself I can't stand gankers and griefers. They make me look bad, obviously or this post wouldn't be needed.  

Bartle was correct when he came out with his psychology of games and what a multiplayer game needed. Killers, Explorers, Achievers, and Socializers. The expanded list as well; Reds...Blues...Crafters...Economists..etc. You need them all to create a healthy well-rounded community.  

We need more BLUES to combat the REDS and you wouldn't see so many people against OWPvP.  

I agree.. but the problem with that is that it is almost impossible to regulate.... no matter how interesting and amazing that would be.. no one can control the ratio of griefers to the ratio of others.. i don't mind owpvp.. but i believe u should be able to turn it off.. not to pick/choose battles but so that you can decide if today you want to participate in pvp.. or today is just a day for crafting and looting/lvling up... without the ability to do so.. at times it will be incredibly difficult to get anything done...

 

ppl mention grouping and guilds a lot... but your friends will not always be online when you are to protect u.. it defeats the purpose of even having them.

True but you can't always do what you want to do all the time. Yes joining a guild is a great way to keep things like that in check. Another is to not go to area's where Griefers/Gankers are known to prowl.  If you know there are gankers roaming around destroying people, stay in the city and craft or look for a group to play with (its an MMO you don't always have to group with people  you know ...aka Final Fantasy XI style). 

Sure Developers can help the situation out a bit like EVE did. Having different area's with different consequences. Having the real rare items/materials/RAIDS/Boss Fights in the lawless area's. While the  less attractive yet still valuable items/mater- you get the point. 

TL;DR

There are many different ways to combat Gankers/Griefers but Developers are to lazy to design, or players are to antisocial/entitled to use them. 

EDIT: Also Gankers/Griefers are usually a very small minority of the population. Its just MMO's today are so antisocial nobody ever creates groups to combat them anymore. 

Originally posted by Vorthanion
Sounds to me like the OP wants sheep to hunt (World PvP) and can't deal with fighting other wolves of equatable skill / gear (Instanced PvP).

It has nothing to do with skill or being equal in gear. It has everything to do with redundancy.

I want the feeling of surprise and escape. I want the feeling of adapting to the situation. I can't do this in a Warzone or Battleground. All the best strategies are learned by all within the first month. After that, everything becomes a rinse/repeat grind for gear.

As for World PvP, proper sanctions can be put in place to protect lowbies etc. It's just that the developers refuse to take the time to do them. Instead, we get these small rooms surrounded by walls or mountains, a simple ruletset, and a PvP-ready label on the title.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Why is it so amazing? Don't you think others can have different preference than you?

You know that LOL, a pure instanced pvp game, is more popular than WOW right? That is pretty good evidence that arena type e-sport pvp is what a lot of people enjoy. WOT is also succeeding based on the same model. You don't even need a world to have good arena pvp.

It's not, though.

What is the first thing people do when they have all the final PvP rewards? Yup. They go fight in the world.

If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, most people would quit. Battlegrounds alone is not fun enough to sustain interest.

So let me get this straight. Somebody likes/accepts something and you are in amazement?

Wow you must be amazed quite a lot considering the human population and the vast differences in tastes we all have, even if a lot of us shares some of the same tastes.

That's the problem with posters. They use themselves as reference points. Considering people are able to like different things maybe it's time to open ones eyes to that, even if you don't share it

Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

 

Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured  is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.

 

Servers should go like this:

Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)

Server #2 PvP (World PvP)

 

I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.

I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.

Maybe you should vent your anger and dismay at the gaming developers, people are playing whats on offer.  blame the organ grinder not the monkey.

Originally posted by mmoDAD

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Why is it so amazing? Don't you think others can have different preference than you?

You know that LOL, a pure instanced pvp game, is more popular than WOW right? That is pretty good evidence that arena type e-sport pvp is what a lot of people enjoy. WOT is also succeeding based on the same model. You don't even need a world to have good arena pvp.

It's not, though.

 

What is the first thing people do when they have all the final PvP rewards? Yup. They go fight in the world.

If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, most people would quit. Battlegrounds alone is not fun enough to sustain interest.

Its easy to blame it on the rewards. It is the only way you can justify it, isn't it? They can't possibly think its good or fun, can they?

Jeez...

It is fun, but the playerbase has accepted a cartoon version of PvP over the war films that were faction based and guild PvP. The two sit very uneasily together and when a MMO has both the reward advantages of playing the cartoon version mean thats all anyone plays.

I think it is possible to have both in the same game if the rewards from instanced PvP were not the same as those from zone PvP. This principle has the same foundation as keeping the rewards from PvE and PvP separate. If you do that one form of play will not get picked over another purely for rewards. One specific, instanced PvP should not level you up.