Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Kuppa

Incredibly ignorant and horribly stated argument. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean its trash. Some people like a good balanced pvp fight, they don't need rewards just getting in there and pvping on a balanced field.

 

The same could also be said about OWPVP. There are folks who love it because it has "meaning", they like that constant threat or like to go hunt others. But we could do like you are doing and call it trash because it's basically just a gankfest, right? NO!

 

Different pvp for different tastes, deal with it.

You mean deal with it like this ?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5966976836

Its so full of trash that gamers are forced  to develope their own addons so they dont need watch that trash.

 

 

He's not saying "WoW instanced pvp is trash", he is saying all of it. Im saying thats not true, he just has different pvp tastes. WoW is just one piece of the pie.

 

And my "deal with it" remark is the fact that he likes owpvp and not spvp but there are other players that are the other way around.

That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

 

Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

Usually when a dev uses instances its because they didn't think the feature out to incorporate it into the whole of the game. The same lazy devs that abuse instancing are the same ones that release bad instanced PvP that have nothing to do with the MMO they're welded onto.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Kuppa

Incredibly ignorant and horribly stated argument. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean its trash. Some people like a good balanced pvp fight, they don't need rewards just getting in there and pvping on a balanced field.

 

The same could also be said about OWPVP. There are folks who love it because it has "meaning", they like that constant threat or like to go hunt others. But we could do like you are doing and call it trash because it's basically just a gankfest, right? NO!

 

Different pvp for different tastes, deal with it.

You mean deal with it like this ?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5966976836

Its so full of trash that gamers are forced  to develope their own addons so they dont need watch that trash.

 

 

He's not saying "WoW instanced pvp is trash", he is saying all of it. Im saying thats not true, he just has different pvp tastes. WoW is just one piece of the pie.

 

And my "deal with it" remark is the fact that he likes owpvp and not spvp but there are other players that are the other way around.

That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

 

Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

that's not his complaint.. his complaint is that the pvp isn't any good. instead of having castles that can be sieged immediately after being taken over.. they can be reinforced and unsiegable for 24 hours after it changes hands.. that way it would have lasting impact.... thats his/others focus.. that instanced pvp usually has no real consequences or goals... and that those that the have achievements are mediocre at best... it should be understandable..  his focus and enjoyment is pvp.. it should be made to be worthwhile whether it is open world or instanced..

Instancing is fail.

In regards to PvP, SWG pre-cu got it right with the TEF (temporary enemy flag) system. You could PvP at your choosing and you never knew who was going to jump in because of the covert/overt system. Made for some fantastic battles, outrageous fun.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

 

Oh yea, 1,000+ people fighting over ACTUAL control of cities is just ganking..  Moron.

 

Darkfall 1.0 was a game produced by a very small development team over a long period of time.  Despite all its problems it still sold a large number of copies, and maintained enough subscribers to finance Darkfall Unholy Wars.

 

If you enjoy CoD style meaningless MMO PvP then go ahead and play these themepark games.  Those of us who like actually fighting over something meaningful will play games like Darkfall and EVE.

I don't think that is the issue. The issue is that these games aren't newbie friendly... if i join the game a year after release and everytime i login i get ganked 2 min into the game... and 40 sec after getting rezzed.. what is the point?

Except that they had 24 hour new player protection in DF 1.0, and will have n00b safezones in DF 2.0

People just need to start admitting that:

1) They don't like being attacked unless it is on their terms

2) They are afraid to lose their precious pixels

Originally posted by Psychow
Am I to understand that anything that isn't done like it was in SWG is trash?

yea that's why SWG is such a success :) it was so awesome.

seriously, why keep naming SWG (not you psychow, the people you asked)? they totaly screwed it up with their patching. SWG was nothing like SWG with that "yedis for everyone" patch stuff.

and that's why only 5 people have been playing SWG in the end.

realy a good game, i totaly see their point :)

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by ForumPvP

Originally posted by Kuppa

Incredibly ignorant and horribly stated argument. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean its trash. Some people like a good balanced pvp fight, they don't need rewards just getting in there and pvping on a balanced field.

 

The same could also be said about OWPVP. There are folks who love it because it has "meaning", they like that constant threat or like to go hunt others. But we could do like you are doing and call it trash because it's basically just a gankfest, right? NO!

 

Different pvp for different tastes, deal with it.

You mean deal with it like this ?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5966976836

Its so full of trash that gamers are forced  to develope their own addons so they dont need watch that trash.

 

 

He's not saying "WoW instanced pvp is trash", he is saying all of it. Im saying thats not true, he just has different pvp tastes. WoW is just one piece of the pie.

 

And my "deal with it" remark is the fact that he likes owpvp and not spvp but there are other players that are the other way around.

That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

 

Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

Usually when a dev uses instances its because they didn't think the feature out to incorporate it into the whole of the game. The same lazy devs that abuse instancing are the same ones that release bad instanced PvP that have nothing to do with the MMO they're welded onto.

Usually doesn't mean all, and their are PLENTY of examples outside of MMOs that do this right as well. Besides most owpvp is also done usually incorrectly according to many. It's a matter of opinions, which is what you have to understand.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw
I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but notice the OP said WoW had trash PvP yet am I mistaken about WoW PvP servers actually being open world PvP? I could have sworn they were the last time I checked.

Not really, no. Most of WoW's PvP is instanced, and most of it isn't very well balanced. It's a good example of a game that has PvP bolted onto it as an afterthought instead of built into the core.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

 

Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

that's not his complaint.. his complaint is that the pvp isn't any good. instead of having castles that can be sieged immediately after being taken over.. they can be reinforced and unsiegable for 24 hours after it changes hands.. that way it would have lasting impact.... thats his/others focus.. that instanced pvp usually has no real consequences or goals... and that those that the have achievements are mediocre at best... it should be understandable..  his focus and enjoyment is pvp.. it should be made to be worthwhile whether it is open world or instanced..

That is not his argument. He basically said that instanced pvp is scraps left over tacked on later in development. I'm telling him that is not true.

Originally posted by Uzik

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

 

Oh yea, 1,000+ people fighting over ACTUAL control of cities is just ganking..  Moron.

 

Darkfall 1.0 was a game produced by a very small development team over a long period of time.  Despite all its problems it still sold a large number of copies, and maintained enough subscribers to finance Darkfall Unholy Wars.

 

If you enjoy CoD style meaningless MMO PvP then go ahead and play these themepark games.  Those of us who like actually fighting over something meaningful will play games like Darkfall and EVE.

I don't think that is the issue. The issue is that these games aren't newbie friendly... if i join the game a year after release and everytime i login i get ganked 2 min into the game... and 40 sec after getting rezzed.. what is the point?

 

Except that they had 24 hour new player protection in DF 1.0, and will have n00b safezones in DF 2.0

 

People just need to start admitting that:

1) They don't like being attacked unless it is on their terms

2) They are afraid to lose their precious pixels

Well, if that is the case.. it makes pretty good sense. I would just hope that the individual is wise enough to have planned ahead and tried to make friends/ joins a guild.

I still believe there should be some kinda of level difference restriction based on the game play mechanics and overall ability of ppl of differing lvls to be competitive... other than that.. pvp during events or sieges should be completely open...

Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

Those games failed.  If all I cared about was world PVP I'd play a genre where it's more enjoyable like an FPS.

World PVP generally means there will be a lot of ganking and rez camping.  It gets old after a while.  Most players prefer to choose when to PVP in a role playing game.  How fun would a role playing game like Skyrim be if people were always ganking you?

World PVP really needs a game dedicated to it that doesn't really care about leveling or getting loot.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

 

Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

that's not his complaint.. his complaint is that the pvp isn't any good. instead of having castles that can be sieged immediately after being taken over.. they can be reinforced and unsiegable for 24 hours after it changes hands.. that way it would have lasting impact.... thats his/others focus.. that instanced pvp usually has no real consequences or goals... and that those that the have achievements are mediocre at best... it should be understandable..  his focus and enjoyment is pvp.. it should be made to be worthwhile whether it is open world or instanced..

That is not his argument. He basically said that instanced pvp is scraps left over tacked on later in development. I'm telling him that is not true.

I'm not a dev so i don't kno... but if it was their intention to make it the way it is.. and not as an afterthought.. maybe they have a target audience.. can't be upset if the game isn't made for you..

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Snip

How are you unable to comprehend that it is possible to have good PvE in a PvP game and good PvP in a PvE game?

Just because an MMO focuses on PvE, it does not get a free pass to have poorly thought out, poorly designed tacked on PvP.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that.

However, you can't compare WoW with DaoC (Just to name 2 examples). Even though they are both classed as MMORPG games, they are both situated in completely different sub-genres.

While WoW focuses a lot more on its PvE aspect, DaoC focuses a lot more on it's PvP aspect (Seriously, who talks about their fond PvE memories in DaoC anyway?). Almost like Sims vs BF3. Only you would have to be able to match your Sims family against another in an arena room that was added in the " The Sims: Arenas" addon.

Anyway, team PvP, or arena-style as I love to call it, is not " bad" . It's just different. It's not Open-world. It's instanced to provide a fair and even ground for 2 or more teams to fight eachother and really be declared winner (class balance issues aside). Like a football match. Or soccer. Or whatever.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

Those games failed.  If all I cared about was world PVP I'd play a genre where it's more enjoyable like an FPS.

 

World PVP generally means there will be a lot of ganking and rez camping.  It gets old after a while.  Most players prefer to choose when to PVP in a role playing game.  How fun would a role playing game like Skyrim be if people were always ganking you?

 

World PVP really needs a game dedicated to it that doesn't really care about leveling or getting loot.

I think your idea makes complete sense.. if there is not a loss of lvl or experience involved and only loot and gold... i can see myself enjoying the game.. otherwise it would be pointless to lvl up just to downlvl everytime someone ganked u.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.

SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.

Those games failed.  If all I cared about was world PVP I'd play a genre where it's more enjoyable like an FPS.

 

World PVP generally means there will be a lot of ganking and rez camping.  It gets old after a while.  Most players prefer to choose when to PVP in a role playing game.  How fun would a role playing game like Skyrim be if people were always ganking you?

 

World PVP really needs a game dedicated to it that doesn't really care about leveling or getting loot.

But see, that's why SWG's TEF system was perfect. You could be overt which meant you'd be open for PvP attacks any time, you could be covert and choose WHEN to participate in PvP (nobody could attack you unless flagged) or you could simply avoid becoming covert which meant you didn't participate in PvP at all.

IMHO, the best solution to PvP ever designed, and the most fun as well. Small skirmishes would sometimes turn into city-wide epic battles that lasted hours. I can't stress how much fun this system was, it was all win.

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

 

Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

that's not his complaint.. his complaint is that the pvp isn't any good. instead of having castles that can be sieged immediately after being taken over.. they can be reinforced and unsiegable for 24 hours after it changes hands.. that way it would have lasting impact.... thats his/others focus.. that instanced pvp usually has no real consequences or goals... and that those that the have achievements are mediocre at best... it should be understandable..  his focus and enjoyment is pvp.. it should be made to be worthwhile whether it is open world or instanced..

That is not his argument. He basically said that instanced pvp is scraps left over tacked on later in development. I'm telling him that is not true.

I'm not a dev so i don't kno... but if it was their intention to make it the way it is.. and not as an afterthought.. maybe they have a target audience.. can't be upset if the game isn't made for you..

I have no clue why you said why you just said....

I miss the old days of Lineage 2, where there were a lot of world bosses, one of the most wanted bosses was Baium, it has 1 week of respawn, 1 day before Baium re-appear, the 13th floor of tower of insolence was filled with enemy clans fighting over the spot. Good days, I'm waiting for another game focused on guild wars over world resorces and politics.

Maybe Lineage Eternal will be my next MMO for, ate least, my next 5 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ07qYDvuBA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxhmQVP1XS0

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

That's because, by and large, it is trash. Most MMOs have poorly thought out, stitched onto the end PvP. Very few MMOs include instanced PvP into the core design of the game. That's why they instance it, because it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the game. Good PVP is built into the core of the game. Good game systems are well thought out and deep.

Instanced PvP generally, and almost always, has bad, tacked on game systems. That may be your thing, but from an objective viewpoint, most instanced PvP is poorly thought out garbage.

You don't seem to get the idea that instanced pvp is not the byproduct of tacked on pvp desing. It is it's own type of pvp that can be designed from the beggining or tacked on just like owpvp. It's a different type of pvp.

 

Objective viewpoint? I see there is no discussion to be had, with your "objective" facts of opinion...

that's not his complaint.. his complaint is that the pvp isn't any good. instead of having castles that can be sieged immediately after being taken over.. they can be reinforced and unsiegable for 24 hours after it changes hands.. that way it would have lasting impact.... thats his/others focus.. that instanced pvp usually has no real consequences or goals... and that those that the have achievements are mediocre at best... it should be understandable..  his focus and enjoyment is pvp.. it should be made to be worthwhile whether it is open world or instanced..

That is not his argument. He basically said that instanced pvp is scraps left over tacked on later in development. I'm telling him that is not true.

I'm not a dev so i don't kno... but if it was their intention to make it the way it is.. and not as an afterthought.. maybe they have a target audience.. can't be upset if the game isn't made for you..

I have no clue why you said why you just said....

a wordy way of saying i agree.