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General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The amount of people who settle for Instanced PvP Trash simply amazes me.

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447 posts found
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4327

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/30/12 2:49:52 PM#261
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man



 

 

Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

Pking someone in a pvp game is not griefing.....

Getting killed happens a lot in a pvp game? Oh shit really? Getting legitimately griefed, yeah that doesn't actually happen that often.

Sure it is.  Just cause it's allowed doesn't make it not griefing. 

And yes "legitamite griefing"  e.g corpse camping, camping newb spawn area, going after people many mnay levels lower... happens a lot

getting killed isn't an issue.  Harrassment is and yes happens quite a bit.

edit - And the options are not simply pvp or pve.  There are many options in between such as not killing someone below a certain level, only killing someone within certain levels of you, instanced pvp  all are options between the two.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/30/12 2:50:47 PM#262
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Skeeter50

Originally posted by bcbully You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.   Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 
I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.
Do you see any people around? did you enjoy the engine while experiencing 48v48? if you didn't experience any of that we consider OPvP to be non-existent in swtor. Why do you think people left swtor?


There is a long list of reasons people left SWToR. OWPvP is pretty far down the list. I would go so far as to say that OWPvP is not a major factor in any game's success or failure unless that game uses it as a primary game play mechanic.

In games where players can choose between PvE servers and PvP servers, more people choose PvE servers and the PvE servers are more populated. More people choose PvE with optional PvP. They aren't forced into that, it's what they want.

It's just not that important.

 

Of course there are more reasons of why people left SWTOR, but for me, OPvP is the main thing for me, to each their own. To make a more generalized statement, restrictions ruined it for me.

I'm pretty sure most people left because llum was shitty as well as their pro engine. Hard to believe that OPvP is far down the list, maybe for you individually as you don't care for OPvP.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  User Deleted
11/30/12 2:52:42 PM#263
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man







Getting harassed in chat is universal. That has nothing to do with PvE or PvP. The response is the same in both cases; ignore the person and possibly report them to a GM. I suppose on a PvP server you could kill the person, but that aspect of griefing is the same on both server types too...the more powerful player will more likely harass the weaker player, not the other way around.

I'm not sure what the message is you're trying to convey here. More people want PvE games with optional or instanced PvP. Does it really matter why? That's what they want, so they're not going to play a PvP game or on a PvP server. They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing. They just have to see those events as things they don't want to experience.

** edit **
Actually, on a PvP server, getting harassed in chat may be considered an acceptable form of game play. This isn't likely to happen on a PvE server.

 

"They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing". Wait wut?

 

Where have I said anything about what the majority want btw? That entire part of your last two posts has been utterly redundant.

 

My original post pointed out that griefing doesn't occur 90% of the time in a pvp game unless you are either A) talking shite, or B) have a really fked up notion as to what constitutes griefing. Neither of your two posts in response to that initial premise have countered it in any way.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3195

Poacher killer.

11/30/12 2:53:20 PM#264
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

Having played OWPVP MMOs for quite a few years I haven't experienced anything with respect to griefing that I would label as happening "very often". Maybe some of you guys have bad luck, perhaps you're unaware that you can displace and find a more suitable place to call home, or maybe some of you are getting griefed so much because of your own behaviour in game. Sure it does happen, but after all these years I just don't see it as such a huge issue. Hell, it wasn't an issue for me in 2 years of playing the original DF.

 

 

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/30/12 2:56:44 PM#265
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

Having played OWPVP MMOs for quite a few years I haven't experienced anything with respect to griefing that I would label as happening "very often". Maybe some of you guys have bad luck, perhaps you're unaware that you can displace and find a more suitable place to call home, or maybe some of you are getting griefed so much because of your own behaviour in game. Sure it does happen, but after all these years I just don't see it as such a huge issue. Hell, it wasn't an issue for me in 2 years of playing the original DF.

 

 

I played SWG for like 6+ years without getting griefed......

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4327

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/30/12 2:56:58 PM#266
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

Having played OWPVP MMOs for quite a few years I haven't experienced anything with respect to griefing that I would label as happening "very often". Maybe some of you guys have bad luck, perhaps you're unaware that you can displace and find a more suitable place to call home, or maybe some of you are getting griefed so much because of your own behaviour in game. Sure it does happen, but after all these years I just don't see it as such a huge issue. Hell, it wasn't an issue for me in 2 years of playing the original DF.

 

 

Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/30/12 2:59:04 PM#267
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

 

I love the element of suprise.....don't mind getting ganked out of nowhere. I love getting hunted by bounty hunters and flanking them as they try to flank me.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  User Deleted
11/30/12 2:59:49 PM#268
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man



 

 

Sure it is.  Just cause it's allowed doesn't make it not griefing. 

And yes "legitamite griefing"  e.g corpse camping, camping newb spawn area, going after people many mnay levels lower... happens a lot

getting killed isn't an issue.  Harrassment is and yes happens quite a bit.

edit - And the options are not simply pvp or pve.  There are many options in between such as not killing someone below a certain level, only killing someone within certain levels of you, instanced pvp  all are options between the two.

Pking isn't griefing, jesus titty fking christ.

 

Lopsided camping occurs far more frequently in consensual pvp settings.

 

"Harrassement happens quite a bit", about as much as it does in pve games.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4327

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/30/12 3:00:57 PM#269
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

 

I love the element of suprise.....don't mind getting ganked out of nowhere. I love getting hunted by bounty hunters and flanking them as they try to flank me.

That can be a lot of fun, but for me it's more fun when I actually have a chance of winning.  If I'm in crafting gear hauling a load of materials, there really is no chance. Likewise I won't do that to others.

However if someone sneaks up on me and we are about even levels, that can be a lot of fun.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/30/12 3:04:52 PM#270
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

 

I love the element of suprise.....don't mind getting ganked out of nowhere. I love getting hunted by bounty hunters and flanking them as they try to flank me.

That can be a lot of fun, but for me it's more fun when I actually have a chance of winning.  If I'm in crafting gear hauling a load of materials, there really is no chance. Likewise I won't do that to others.

However if someone sneaks up on me and we are about even levels, that can be a lot of fun.

In SWG there was a housing/city system, so if you craft in your home then your safe and the radar helps you stay alert so when a BH tries to attack, you get a chance to change your clothes to combat/pvp/high end gear or ignore the bh and continue crafting.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  Isawa

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1065

11/30/12 3:08:42 PM#271
Originally posted by mmoDAD

When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

When they became slaves to the system much like the gladiators of old.

Or maybe in like nearly all Martial Arts, one fights in an arena against a set number of opponents to prove their worth.

The open world is full of back stabbers, unfairness haha, and unsuspecting fights. Nothing wrong with open world pvp, as long as thereis some sort of law in the land. Warrants for arrest for gankers, bounty hunters, even NPC guards.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9943

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/30/12 3:09:24 PM#272


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man



Getting harassed in chat is universal. That has nothing to do with PvE or PvP. The response is the same in both cases; ignore the person and possibly report them to a GM. I suppose on a PvP server you could kill the person, but that aspect of griefing is the same on both server types too...the more powerful player will more likely harass the weaker player, not the other way around. I'm not sure what the message is you're trying to convey here. More people want PvE games with optional or instanced PvP. Does it really matter why? That's what they want, so they're not going to play a PvP game or on a PvP server. They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing. They just have to see those events as things they don't want to experience. ** edit ** Actually, on a PvP server, getting harassed in chat may be considered an acceptable form of game play. This isn't likely to happen on a PvE server.  
"They don't even have to see what some people call greifing as griefing". Wait wut? 

Where have I said anything about what the majority want btw? That entire part of your last two posts has been utterly redundant.

 

My original post pointed out that griefing doesn't occur 90% of the time in a pvp game unless you are either A) talking shite, or B) have a really fked up notion as to what constitutes griefing. Neither of your two posts in response to that initial premise have countered it in any way.




I'm not disputing that griefing doesn't happen as often as it's talked about. It could be true that griefing doesn't happen 99% of the time in PvP games. This doesn't matter.

What I'm saying is this:

Only one player involved in an event has to perceive that event as "griefing". The definition doesn't matter...only the perception matters. They are going to describe the event as griefing.

A player doesn't actually have to experience getting griefed in order to avoid a game where they think it might happen. It doesn't matter how they define griefing.

Griefing doesn't have to be perceived as happening to many people to have an adverse impact on the perception of OWPvP games or servers.

Griefing as a reason to not engage in OWPvP games is a legitimate reason.

It's all about perception.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4327

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/30/12 3:10:12 PM#273
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

 

I love the element of suprise.....don't mind getting ganked out of nowhere. I love getting hunted by bounty hunters and flanking them as they try to flank me.

That can be a lot of fun, but for me it's more fun when I actually have a chance of winning.  If I'm in crafting gear hauling a load of materials, there really is no chance. Likewise I won't do that to others.

However if someone sneaks up on me and we are about even levels, that can be a lot of fun.

In SWG there was a housing/city system, so if you craft in your home then your safe and the radar helps you stay alert so when a BH tries to attack, you get a chance to change your clothes to combat/pvp/high end gear or ignore the bh and continue crafting.

SWG also had a flag system if I remember right, didn't it?  You could choose to be pvp or not (except Jedi)

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/30/12 3:11:59 PM#274
Griefing is the smallest thing I'd worry about in OPvP games imo.

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  Jonoku

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Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/30/12 3:16:02 PM#275
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

That can be a lot of fun, but for me it's more fun when I actually have a chance of winning.  If I'm in crafting gear hauling a load of materials, there really is no chance. Likewise I won't do that to others.

However if someone sneaks up on me and we are about even levels, that can be a lot of fun.

In SWG there was a housing/city system, so if you craft in your home then your safe and the radar helps you stay alert so when a BH tries to attack, you get a chance to change your clothes to combat/pvp/high end gear or ignore the bh and continue crafting.

SWG also had a flag system if I remember right, didn't it?  You could choose to be pvp or not (except Jedi)

Ya, there was no such thing as pvp server or pve server and they had success in their OPvP because of the community looking forward to it 24/7. As a jedi you'd always get hunted by Bounty hunters but as NGE came out, BH hunts anyone.

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  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 857

11/30/12 3:18:10 PM#276

When I played EVE the idea was, if it's a fair fight, you planned it wrong. (Something I have mentioned before)

You wanted an advantage. If they had ten ships then you wanted twenty. It was about surprise, it was about gaining intellegence, it was about having the right kind of ships and yes it was about having more than your opponent.

In instanced pvp your, side has the same amount of people as the other side, your all about the same level, it is about a fair fight. It's about organization, communication and  tactics, and in many cases it is about gear (Which is why gamers are against pay to win)

In other words, in open pvp the fight is usually won before the battle even begins.

In instanced pvp, it is usually won by the team that works together the best.

They are simply two different typse of animals and both have advantages and disadvantages. Some people will gravitate towards open world pvp and some will gravitate to instanced. There is nothing wrong with either, it's just a matter of taste.

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

11/30/12 3:22:48 PM#277
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

When I played EVE the idea was, if it's a fair fight, you planned it wrong. (Something I have mentioned before)

You wanted an advantage. If they had ten ships then you wanted twenty. It was about surprise, it was about gaining intellegence, it was about having the right kind of ships and yes it was about having more than your opponent.

In instanced pvp your, side has the same amount of people as the other side, your all about the same level, it is about a fair fight. It's about organization, communication and  tactics, and in many cases it is about gear (Which is why gamers are against pay to win)

Now this wouldn't encourage me to play EVE, in other OPvP games, this wasnt the case.

Looking at: The Repopulation
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  Kuinn

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1845

11/30/12 3:44:29 PM#278
Originally posted by Quizzical
What I don't understand is why people settle for world PVP trash in which winning is determined almost entirely by level, gear, and how many people your side has in the area, with very little impact from what you actually do in combat.

 

Well first of all, I can enter an "even" battleground in themepark X and there's a guy who has two times better gear than I do and two shot me in a second or two.

 

Spontaneous and "living" PvP is a lot more fun in my opinion vs. instanced PvP. Ages old example is the SS vs. Tarren Mill in WoW. Small Alliance group starts ganking horde outside Tarren Mill, the horde players calls for help. Then they push to SS and pay back. Both sides grows and the combat moves back and forth and evolves, smaller groups detach from the big zerg and begins to attack nearby other locations.

 

I play MMORPGS because I love the huge open worlds where things happen at random locations often, and it's not always fair or pretty. Now that we have two tons of MOBAS out there I'd be glad with a MMORPG that has no instanced PvP at all and more involving open world PvP, but I understand why the instanced PvP "must" be there if you want mass appeal for your game. It's just sad that most devs seem to bet everything on it and forget about the open world PvP completely.

 

I started playing WoW back in the day because a lot of stuff happened in the open world including PvP, it's the core of the MMORPGS and what sets them apart from lobby games. I wouldnt touch WoW with a ten feet long pole today since NOTHING happens in the open world anymore. I wonder why you cant just sit in the launcher and join instances, PvP, and raids from the launcher, why require people to go idle in the cities at all just to end up in a group with people from other servers.

 

I'm just saying that I dont think it's so simple as "is it fair or not?" when talking about MMORPGS and what these games are about, or what these games were about.

 

Planetside 2 is not a MMORPG, but it does have huge open world endless PvP and I love it. I run into uneven, spontaneous situations all around the maps constantly and it's damn well fun. I hope one day similar game is made where there is other activities besides PvP too, resource gathering and stuff.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17936

11/30/12 3:45:03 PM#279
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

"Harrassement happens quite a bit", about as much as it does in pve games.

How is harrassment even be possible in a pve game?

I hit "LFD" go into an instanced, and group with 4 other guys. If i don't like any of them, i hit the "quit" button. They can't find me from that point on.

So tell me, how is it possible to harass me at all?

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

11/30/12 3:47:14 PM#280
Originally posted by Jonoku
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

When I played EVE the idea was, if it's a fair fight, you planned it wrong. (Something I have mentioned before)

You wanted an advantage. If they had ten ships then you wanted twenty. It was about surprise, it was about gaining intellegence, it was about having the right kind of ships and yes it was about having more than your opponent.

In instanced pvp your, side has the same amount of people as the other side, your all about the same level, it is about a fair fight. It's about organization, communication and  tactics, and in many cases it is about gear (Which is why gamers are against pay to win)

Now this wouldn't encourage me to play EVE, in other OPvP games, this wasnt the case.

Noone claimed it is for everybody, even eve has sectors with different danger level or what is is called, rs has wilderness, lineage 2 had a penalty system (if you let yourself being killed several times, you opponent will get hunted because there is a chance that he drops a piece of his op pk gear when he has too many pk points, together with exp penalties, works wonders, most of the time :) ).

In general, to poke fun a bit, it is for people who will think "gosh, what should i do to get a ship like this, or maybe i should join a alliance?", not for people that think "This is UNFAIR, I was obviously better than him, even mum says so, but I still LOST, THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN!!!1!!!11".

Flame on!

:)

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