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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The amount of people who settle for Instanced PvP Trash simply amazes me.

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447 posts found
  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

11/30/12 8:00:42 AM#241
Instanced arena PvP in mmorpg's will lose to dedicated lobby pvp games.   It already started and it will just accelerate.  That will also mean that overall mmorpg popularity will drop.   Does not have to be bad thing medium / long-term.   Short-term it might be painful.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10559

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/30/12 8:03:00 AM#242


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man World PVP = Griefing.   Its as simple as that, you can argue the value of it all day long but 90% of the time all you will encounter in a game with open world PVP is griefing.   
That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.



It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want.

Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/30/12 8:54:22 AM#243
But its not like a binary thing.
Either a huge pve world with pvp ghetoed off into a couple of little boxes or a ffa kill anyone anywhere setup.

You can have in-between approaches.

For me the daoc approach of pve areas of the world and pvp areas of the world with objectives and resources to fight for works best for themeparks

And the eve approach of varying degrees of security and using the economy as a pvp driver works best for sandboxes (contrary to popular belief it is possible to play eve and send 99.999% of your time in pve)

There is no need to have instances and offer a token sub par take on lol as your pvp.

You can design your game world to cater to different types of players on different areas.
E.g. you have a game with 4 factions.
The world consists of a number of islands.
There is a pve island for each faction
There is a shared pve island for all factions where they put assure their differences
There are 2 islands with daoc / planetside style pvp
There is a renegade island where players do gvg / ffa pvp.

All out in the world, no need for frikin instanced bollox, which we've all established is much better done by non mmos like lol, dota, csgo, Tf2 etc..
  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1133

11/30/12 9:02:01 AM#244
Originally posted by mmoDAD

...It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces...

...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.

 

Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't.

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

11/30/12 9:03:58 AM#245
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by mmoDAD

...It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces...

...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.

 

Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't.

I am of the belief that people who enjoy PVP but don't enjoy OWPVP, are those that haven't experienced true OWPVP. 100v100 or Guild V Guild. Having two massive RAIDS clash over claim to a mob etc. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

11/30/12 9:05:30 AM#246
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by mmoDAD

...It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces...

...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.

 

Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't.

I agree here - it is a POTATO / PATATOE type of thing. You like open world PvP - have fun. You like Instanced PvP - have fun. There is no right or wrong in this situation except in one's own mind.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10559

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/30/12 9:05:58 AM#247


Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by mmoDAD ...It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces...
...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.   Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't.
I am of the belief that people who enjoy PVP but don't enjoy OWPVP, are those that haven't experienced true OWPVP. 100v100 or Guild V Guild. Having two massive RAIDS clash over claim to a mob etc. 



That's not "true" OWPvP. That's structured PvP that can happen in the open world. OWPvP is any sort of PvP that happens in the open world. There is no "false" OWPvP.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

11/30/12 9:07:50 AM#248

Players that call open world PvP a gank fest, are mostly soloers from what I have seen.

They love to face roll players with their uber gear they spent weeks grinding for. But, if they run into any resistance from an organized group, they scream for nerfs.

The OP is right, the state of PvP in all MMOs is a joke. So I have moved on to MMOFPS games like Planetside 2. It may not be a real MMO, but at least it has world PvP, that is group orientated for once.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

11/30/12 1:37:43 PM#249
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Asuran
No the use of a timer is redundant in wow. Why not let lwg run all the time and let players decide when to enter and leave.

Because of the victory conditions.

In a game like PS2 with no timer, there is no "winning" or "losing". The whole battle is always in flux.

I don't see one to be better than the other, just a preference. Do you want a system that can say "you win" at some point? You pick the WOW system.

If you just want to continue to battle, PS2 is the pick.

  User Deleted
11/30/12 1:49:38 PM#250
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man
That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.


It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want.

Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for.

 

I know that people can grief other people in PVE mmos by constantly harrassing them in chat, I accept that exists and as such I refuse to ever play a PVE mmo and I will come on to these forums and post some complete bullshit "90% of the time PVE griefzors" comment. That someone, somewhere is being griefed in a PVE mmo makes it as clear as day that there is a fundamental issue with PVE mmos.

 

It is rather important how you define griefing btw. Vital in fact.

 

As for the second part of your post, I generally agree. "Better" is subjective.

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

11/30/12 1:54:22 PM#251
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man
That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.


It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want.

Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for.

 

I know that people can grief other people in PVE mmos by constantly harrassing them in chat, I accept that exists and as such I refuse to ever play a PVE mmo and I will come on to these forums and post some complete bullshit "90% of the time PVE griefzors" comment. That someone, somewhere is being griefed in a PVE mmo makes it as clear as day that there is a fundamental issue with PVE mmos.

 

It is rather important how you define griefing btw. Vital in fact.

 

As for the second part of your post, I generally agree. "Better" is subjective.

Most MMO's have ingnore lists - if you are getting harrassed - use it. If it continues, use the report system. It is a non-issue in PvE any more with chat. That is not griefing to me - that is just immature.

 

PvP griefing is more insidious in  nature.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  User Deleted
11/30/12 2:15:17 PM#252
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man



 

Most MMO's have ingnore lists - if you are getting harrassed - use it. If it continues, use the report system. It is a non-issue in PvE any more with chat. That is not griefing to me - that is just immature.

 

PvP griefing is more insidious in  nature.

What a cop out.

 

If someone is griefing you in a pve game "oh just ignore it or report dude, they are just immature", but if it is in a pvp game "oh man, it's insidious". Right..

 

 

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/30/12 2:19:19 PM#253
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man



 

Most MMO's have ingnore lists - if you are getting harrassed - use it. If it continues, use the report system. It is a non-issue in PvE any more with chat. That is not griefing to me - that is just immature.

 

PvP griefing is more insidious in  nature.

What a cop out.

 

If someone is griefing you in a pve game "oh just ignore it or report dude, they are just immature", but if it is in a pvp game "oh man, it's insidious". Right..

 

 

Well if someone is griefing you in chat, putting them on ignore solves the problem.  If something is griefing you in the world, calling a gm solves the problem.

If someone is griefing you in a pvp game, that is tyically considered allowable behaviour. 

So I see it is not a cop out but a legitamite concern. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/30/12 2:31:33 PM#254
Yes because its allowed, pvp happens on pvp servers. When you sign up, you sign up to potential "grief". Don't like it play a pve server.
  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

11/30/12 2:36:00 PM#255
I just want an MMO to come out with PvP similar to DAOC. Three faction, non-instanced, world objectives that grant bonuses, Realm Points which you can spend to improve your character. DAOC by far had the best PvP I've ever played.
  User Deleted
11/30/12 2:37:55 PM#256
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man



 

 

Well if someone is griefing you in chat, putting them on ignore solves the problem.  If something is griefing you in the world, calling a gm solves the problem.

If someone is griefing you in a pvp game, that is tyically considered allowable behaviour. 

So I see it is not a cop out but a legitamite concern. 

Pking someone in a pvp game is considered "allowable behaviour" as is looting them. Perhaps you need to:

 

Define someone griefing you in a pvp game.

Define how often you think that occurs to each individual.

 

If someone legitimately griefs me in an open world pvp game, that is A) exceptionally rare and B) not simply the act of being pk'd.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/30/12 2:41:48 PM#257
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man



 

 

Well if someone is griefing you in chat, putting them on ignore solves the problem.  If something is griefing you in the world, calling a gm solves the problem.

If someone is griefing you in a pvp game, that is tyically considered allowable behaviour. 

So I see it is not a cop out but a legitamite concern. 

Pking someone in a pvp game is considered "allowable behaviour" as is looting them. Perhaps you need to:

 

Define someone griefing you in a pvp game.

Define how often you think that occurs to each individual.

 

If someone legitimately griefs me in an open world pvp game, that is A) exceptionally rare and B) not simply the act of being pk'd.

Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1133

11/30/12 2:43:12 PM#258
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Yes because its allowed, pvp happens on pvp servers. When you sign up, you sign up to potential "grief". Don't like it play a pve server.

Oh come on, that is like saying bullying can happen in a playground at school, if you want to play in the playground you have to accept you might be bullied. A dick harrassing someone and justifying their behavior by saying "well the programmers don't stop me" is the cop out. The reason a lot of PvP games DO opt for instanced PvP is because these so called PvP'ers who grief are fucking up the game for everyone else.

 

The day the PvP community joins in with the rest of the community in realising these griefers are the problem is the day open world PvP might be seen as a viable mainstream commodity to invest in. But the PvP community either condones the shitty players or is too dumb as a whole to realise exactly why they don't get anyone investing in open world PvP. You guys that cry for open world PvP but say griefing is not a problem are causing more harm then good.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10559

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/30/12 2:44:00 PM#259


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man
That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.
It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want. Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for.  
I know that people can grief other people in PVE mmos by constantly harrassing them in chat, I accept that exists and as such I refuse to ever play a PVE mmo and I will come on to these forums and post some complete bullshit "90% of the time PVE griefzors" comment. That someone, somewhere is being griefed in a PVE mmo makes it as clear as day that there is a fundamental issue with PVE mmos.

 

It is rather important how you define griefing btw. Vital in fact.

 

As for the second part of your post, I generally agree. "Better" is subjective.




Getting harassed in chat is universal. That has nothing to do with PvE or PvP. The response is the same in both cases; ignore the person and possibly report them to a GM. I suppose on a PvP server you could kill the person, but that aspect of griefing is the same on both server types too...the more powerful player will more likely harass the weaker player, not the other way around.

I'm not sure what the message is you're trying to convey here. More people want PvE games with optional or instanced PvP. Does it really matter why? That's what they want, so they're not going to play a PvP game or on a PvP server. They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing. They just have to see those events as things they don't want to experience.

** edit **
Actually, on a PvP server, getting harassed in chat may be considered an acceptable form of game play. This isn't likely to happen on a PvE server.

** edit edit **
Griefing doesn't really need to be defined. When you see "griefing", just assume it means "activities a player doesn't want to engage in, that are instigated by other players". For instance, if it were possible, forcing another player to raid when they don't want to would be griefing.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  User Deleted
11/30/12 2:46:39 PM#260
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Laughing-man



 

 

Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

Pking someone in a pvp game is not griefing.....

Getting killed happens a lot in a pvp game? Oh shit really? Getting legitimately griefed, yeah that doesn't actually happen that often.

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