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11/30/12 8:00:42 AM#241
Instanced arena PvP in mmorpg's will lose to dedicated lobby pvp games. It already started and it will just accelerate. That will also mean that overall mmorpg popularity will drop. Does not have to be bad thing medium / long-term. Short-term it might be painful.
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11/30/12 8:03:00 AM#242
It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want. Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for. Join the League For Gamers. |
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11/30/12 8:54:22 AM#243
But its not like a binary thing.
Either a huge pve world with pvp ghetoed off into a couple of little boxes or a ffa kill anyone anywhere setup. You can have in-between approaches. For me the daoc approach of pve areas of the world and pvp areas of the world with objectives and resources to fight for works best for themeparks And the eve approach of varying degrees of security and using the economy as a pvp driver works best for sandboxes (contrary to popular belief it is possible to play eve and send 99.999% of your time in pve) There is no need to have instances and offer a token sub par take on lol as your pvp. You can design your game world to cater to different types of players on different areas. E.g. you have a game with 4 factions. The world consists of a number of islands. There is a pve island for each faction There is a shared pve island for all factions where they put assure their differences There are 2 islands with daoc / planetside style pvp There is a renegade island where players do gvg / ffa pvp. All out in the world, no need for frikin instanced bollox, which we've all established is much better done by non mmos like lol, dota, csgo, Tf2 etc.. |
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11/30/12 9:02:01 AM#244
Originally posted by mmoDAD ...Or people enjoy it for what it is and don't get all hung on a game and do not try forcing others to adhere to a certain mindset.
Open PvP or structured PvP...it is still PvP. You just happen to prefer 1 type over the other, others don't. |
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11/30/12 9:03:58 AM#245
Originally posted by Maelwydd I am of the belief that people who enjoy PVP but don't enjoy OWPVP, are those that haven't experienced true OWPVP. 100v100 or Guild V Guild. Having two massive RAIDS clash over claim to a mob etc. "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo |
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11/30/12 9:05:30 AM#246
Originally posted by Maelwydd I agree here - it is a POTATO / PATATOE type of thing. You like open world PvP - have fun. You like Instanced PvP - have fun. There is no right or wrong in this situation except in one's own mind.  "You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time." Abraham Lincoln |
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11/30/12 9:05:58 AM#247
That's not "true" OWPvP. That's structured PvP that can happen in the open world. OWPvP is any sort of PvP that happens in the open world. There is no "false" OWPvP. Join the League For Gamers. |
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Adalwulff
 Elite Member
Joined: 1/18/10
"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between" |
11/30/12 9:07:50 AM#248
Players that call open world PvP a gank fest, are mostly soloers from what I have seen. They love to face roll players with their uber gear they spent weeks grinding for. But, if they run into any resistance from an organized group, they scream for nerfs. The OP is right, the state of PvP in all MMOs is a joke. So I have moved on to MMOFPS games like Planetside 2. It may not be a real MMO, but at least it has world PvP, that is group orientated for once.  |
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11/30/12 1:37:43 PM#249
Originally posted by ShakyMo Because of the victory conditions. In a game like PS2 with no timer, there is no "winning" or "losing". The whole battle is always in flux. I don't see one to be better than the other, just a preference. Do you want a system that can say "you win" at some point? You pick the WOW system. If you just want to continue to battle, PS2 is the pick. |
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11/30/12 1:49:38 PM#250
Originally posted by lizardbones I know that people can grief other people in PVE mmos by constantly harrassing them in chat, I accept that exists and as such I refuse to ever play a PVE mmo and I will come on to these forums and post some complete bullshit "90% of the time PVE griefzors" comment. That someone, somewhere is being griefed in a PVE mmo makes it as clear as day that there is a fundamental issue with PVE mmos.
It is rather important how you define griefing btw. Vital in fact.
As for the second part of your post, I generally agree. "Better" is subjective. |
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11/30/12 1:54:22 PM#251
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Most MMO's have ingnore lists - if you are getting harrassed - use it. If it continues, use the report system. It is a non-issue in PvE any more with chat. That is not griefing to me - that is just immature.
PvP griefing is more insidious in nature. "You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time." Abraham Lincoln |
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11/30/12 2:15:17 PM#252
Originally posted by botrytis What a cop out.
If someone is griefing you in a pve game "oh just ignore it or report dude, they are just immature", but if it is in a pvp game "oh man, it's insidious". Right..
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VengeSunsoar
 Elite Member
Joined: 3/10/04
GRIND DOES NOT EXIST. IT IS ENTIRELY YOUR PERCEPTION. |
11/30/12 2:19:19 PM#253
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Well if someone is griefing you in chat, putting them on ignore solves the problem. If something is griefing you in the world, calling a gm solves the problem. If someone is griefing you in a pvp game, that is tyically considered allowable behaviour. So I see it is not a cop out but a legitamite concern. You know, in ancient Egypt. One of the hieroglyphics on the walls of the pyramids actually says 'I am upset as my heir will ruin my kingdom' or something to that affect. This is 5000BC stuff and you know what? Nothing has changed. :P |
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11/30/12 2:31:33 PM#254
Yes because its allowed, pvp happens on pvp servers. When you sign up, you sign up to potential "grief". Don't like it play a pve server.
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11/30/12 2:36:00 PM#255
I just want an MMO to come out with PvP similar to DAOC. Three faction, non-instanced, world objectives that grant bonuses, Realm Points which you can spend to improve your character. DAOC by far had the best PvP I've ever played.
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11/30/12 2:37:55 PM#256
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Pking someone in a pvp game is considered "allowable behaviour" as is looting them. Perhaps you need to:
Define someone griefing you in a pvp game. Define how often you think that occurs to each individual.
If someone legitimately griefs me in an open world pvp game, that is A) exceptionally rare and B) not simply the act of being pk'd. |
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VengeSunsoar
Elite Member
Joined: 3/10/04
GRIND DOES NOT EXIST. IT IS ENTIRELY YOUR PERCEPTION. |
11/30/12 2:41:48 PM#257
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour.. Yep I did. You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want. It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game. And yes it is often pk. You know, in ancient Egypt. One of the hieroglyphics on the walls of the pyramids actually says 'I am upset as my heir will ruin my kingdom' or something to that affect. This is 5000BC stuff and you know what? Nothing has changed. :P |
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11/30/12 2:43:12 PM#258
Originally posted by ShakyMo Oh come on, that is like saying bullying can happen in a playground at school, if you want to play in the playground you have to accept you might be bullied. A dick harrassing someone and justifying their behavior by saying "well the programmers don't stop me" is the cop out. The reason a lot of PvP games DO opt for instanced PvP is because these so called PvP'ers who grief are fucking up the game for everyone else.
The day the PvP community joins in with the rest of the community in realising these griefers are the problem is the day open world PvP might be seen as a viable mainstream commodity to invest in. But the PvP community either condones the shitty players or is too dumb as a whole to realise exactly why they don't get anyone investing in open world PvP. You guys that cry for open world PvP but say griefing is not a problem are causing more harm then good. |
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11/30/12 2:44:00 PM#259
Getting harassed in chat is universal. That has nothing to do with PvE or PvP. The response is the same in both cases; ignore the person and possibly report them to a GM. I suppose on a PvP server you could kill the person, but that aspect of griefing is the same on both server types too...the more powerful player will more likely harass the weaker player, not the other way around. I'm not sure what the message is you're trying to convey here. More people want PvE games with optional or instanced PvP. Does it really matter why? That's what they want, so they're not going to play a PvP game or on a PvP server. They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing. They just have to see those events as things they don't want to experience. ** edit ** Actually, on a PvP server, getting harassed in chat may be considered an acceptable form of game play. This isn't likely to happen on a PvE server. ** edit edit ** Griefing doesn't really need to be defined. When you see "griefing", just assume it means "activities a player doesn't want to engage in, that are instigated by other players". For instance, if it were possible, forcing another player to raid when they don't want to would be griefing. Join the League For Gamers. |
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11/30/12 2:46:39 PM#260
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Pking someone in a pvp game is not griefing..... Getting killed happens a lot in a pvp game? Oh shit really? Getting legitimately griefed, yeah that doesn't actually happen that often. |
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