Originally posted by Naevius

Don't get me wrong, I wish the Ascended gear didn't exist. But even a 5% increase in total stats is only a small factor in the game (especially since sPvP is not an issue here.)

The point is that I can't get too worked up about such a minor advantage.

The most worrisome thing in the Reddit thread was actually the hint of a level cap increase. That would instantly make ALL gear obsolete.

Was stated way before the game even had a release date.

Originally posted by greenreen

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

Originally posted by Thupli

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

"we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve."

In other words, we are going to lie to you  now and say we always intended to be a WOW clone and that our Manifesto was total BS the entire time, god its only going to get worse now, if you don't like grinding gear I advise you get a refund while you still can.

Before this patch there was vertical progression of gear in the game.  Once you hit 80 you had to gear up blue to green to exotic.  Why weren't you screaming about it and calling them liars then?

No you didn't those stat increases were marginal, Ascended not only ups the bar on the stats, it also creates a mandatory window to do the dungeons because of Agony. Hell even if the stats were the same adding agony alone creates its own treadmill. Not to mention the boost it will give in WvWvW. Before this patch you would have passively picked up applicable greens and blues anyway just by playing the game. Ascended gear forces the issue and makes what used to be optional dungeons into a mandatory grind. I wont waste too much time arguing about it since frankly I am looking/waiting for other games now. If you are happy with it fine by me.

Concerning stat improvement, let's look at 5 rings of the same stat type but of varying quality.  I chose Chyrsocola (condi/power/vit).  

	Fine	Masterwork	Rare	Exotic	Ascended
Condition damage	41(14)	55(18)	59(21)	67(25)	71(32)
Power	29(10)	39(12)	42(13)	48(15)	50(18)
Vitality	29(10)	39(12)	42(13)	48(15)	50(18)
Total Stats	133	175	190	218	239

Stats in parenthesis are from gems of a similar quality.  For ascended items, these stats are incorporated into the item itself and they come with a specific infusion slot. 

The stat increase from Fine to Masterwork quality is 31.6%

The stat increase from Masterwork to Rare quality is 8.6%

The stat increase from Rare to Exotic quality is 14.7%

The stat increase from Exotic to Ascended quality is 9.6%.

 

So no, the stat increases between the other qualities were NOT any more marginal than the increase from exotic to ascended.  And the statement "before this patch you would have passively picked up applicable blues and greens anyway by just playing the game" is rendered ludicrous any which way you meant it it.  For one, you still passively pick up blues and greens.  As far as them being "applicable," they were never applicable to anything at least as far as min/maxers are concerned, who are the ONLY people who have a reasonable issue with the new ascended gear.  If you used "applicable blues and greens" before, you can still use them now; but they will be just as bad.  And if you used green/blue gear before, you obviously weren't a min/maxer, you were already playing while extremely underpowered relative to many of your peers (and presumably either didn't notice or didn't care), and you have no more reason to care now.  If you were actually doing WvW in "applicable blues/greens," then you were fighting enemies in exotics who had between 24.6 and 63.9% more stats from gear.  If you didn't care about that, you sure as hell shouldn't care about the extra 10% gap.  

Concerning min/maxers, many of them were the exact players looking for something else to progress toward because previous statistical min/maxing could be achieved so quickly after reaching 80 in GW2.  I honestly don't think these people are the one's doing much of the complaining.  

Lastly, concerning Agony and infusions, we really have no clue where Anet is going with these yet.  Any speculation about gating content is just that: speculation.  Currently, the only thing it "gates" is level XX of FotM.  Once again, to min/maxers and hardcore progressionists, this probably won't be gated at all, as they will get the gear.  To everyone else, especially those who are complaining about grinding FotM, the only thing this gates you from is doing MORE FOTM.  Do you really care about this or are you just looking to take an emotional moral stance on something and get riled up over something that's largely inconsequential to you?  

 

You need to research more items.

There are Ascended items with much greater gaps than you cherry picked.

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71385-lost-seal-of-usoku-infused
72+32= 104 power
51+18= 69 toughness
51+18= 69 vitality
== 242

(this does not even add in the infusion slot that is at least known to be +5 stats so far

Link that shows infusion slot: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lost_Seal_of_Usoku

Link that shows infusion option: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precise_Infusion)

http://www.gw2db.com/items/47737-invaders-ring
67 power
48 toughness
48 vitality
== 163
The stat increase from Exotic to Ascended quality is 48%.
 

Please don't mislead people and next time link to the items you are talking about if you would.

Here are some MORE ascended items if people want to make their own minds up by doing their own calculations on things they use as stats.

http://www.gw2db.com/items?filter-item-rarity=8

 

Let's not even talk about the fact that no one is limited to only wearing ONE ascended item in the game. There is going to be an entire set of gear in the future and weapons.

 

You didn't include the gem with the Invader's Ring you linked, which gives an additional 25 power, 15 vitality and 15 toughness (or 25/15/15 of whichever stats you want), for the same exact total stats as the ring I included: 218.  Ascended items cannot have gems put in them.  This is 42 stat points less than the ascended equivalent, or 11%, most definitely not 48%.  Now I'm sure you weren't intentionally trying to skew the stats in your favor, just as I didn't intentionally choose an ascended ring that had fewer stats, so I won't accuse you of doing so.  I looked at 3 rings quickly and they all had the same stat breakdown.  Not sure why the one you linked has 1 more point for each stat.

Asuming the % stat gain is the same or relatively the same for all ascended gear, your TOTAL stat-from-gear increase with a FULL set of ascended gear would be within that 9-11% range.  Just the 2 pieces that are out now would only increase your total stats from gear by no more than 1.5% assuming you previously had full exotics.  And remember stats from gear are only a portion of your character's total stats.  

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by greenreen

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

Originally posted by Thupli

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

"we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve."

In other words, we are going to lie to you  now and say we always intended to be a WOW clone and that our Manifesto was total BS the entire time, god its only going to get worse now, if you don't like grinding gear I advise you get a refund while you still can.

Before this patch there was vertical progression of gear in the game.  Once you hit 80 you had to gear up blue to green to exotic.  Why weren't you screaming about it and calling them liars then?

No you didn't those stat increases were marginal, Ascended not only ups the bar on the stats, it also creates a mandatory window to do the dungeons because of Agony. Hell even if the stats were the same adding agony alone creates its own treadmill. Not to mention the boost it will give in WvWvW. Before this patch you would have passively picked up applicable greens and blues anyway just by playing the game. Ascended gear forces the issue and makes what used to be optional dungeons into a mandatory grind. I wont waste too much time arguing about it since frankly I am looking/waiting for other games now. If you are happy with it fine by me.

Concerning stat improvement, let's look at 5 rings of the same stat type but of varying quality.  I chose Chyrsocola (condi/power/vit).  

	Fine	Masterwork	Rare	Exotic	Ascended
Condition damage	41(14)	55(18)	59(21)	67(25)	71(32)
Power	29(10)	39(12)	42(13)	48(15)	50(18)
Vitality	29(10)	39(12)	42(13)	48(15)	50(18)
Total Stats	133	175	190	218	239

Stats in parenthesis are from gems of a similar quality.  For ascended items, these stats are incorporated into the item itself and they come with a specific infusion slot. 

The stat increase from Fine to Masterwork quality is 31.6%

The stat increase from Masterwork to Rare quality is 8.6%

The stat increase from Rare to Exotic quality is 14.7%

The stat increase from Exotic to Ascended quality is 9.6%.

 

So no, the stat increases between the other qualities were NOT any more marginal than the increase from exotic to ascended.  And the statement "before this patch you would have passively picked up applicable blues and greens anyway by just playing the game" is rendered ludicrous any which way you meant it it.  For one, you still passively pick up blues and greens.  As far as them being "applicable," they were never applicable to anything at least as far as min/maxers are concerned, who are the ONLY people who have a reasonable issue with the new ascended gear.  If you used "applicable blues and greens" before, you can still use them now; but they will be just as bad.  And if you used green/blue gear before, you obviously weren't a min/maxer, you were already playing while extremely underpowered relative to many of your peers (and presumably either didn't notice or didn't care), and you have no more reason to care now.  If you were actually doing WvW in "applicable blues/greens," then you were fighting enemies in exotics who had between 24.6 and 63.9% more stats from gear.  If you didn't care about that, you sure as hell shouldn't care about the extra 10% gap.  

Concerning min/maxers, many of them were the exact players looking for something else to progress toward because previous statistical min/maxing could be achieved so quickly after reaching 80 in GW2.  I honestly don't think these people are the one's doing much of the complaining.  

Lastly, concerning Agony and infusions, we really have no clue where Anet is going with these yet.  Any speculation about gating content is just that: speculation.  Currently, the only thing it "gates" is level XX of FotM.  Once again, to min/maxers and hardcore progressionists, this probably won't be gated at all, as they will get the gear.  To everyone else, especially those who are complaining about grinding FotM, the only thing this gates you from is doing MORE FOTM.  Do you really care about this or are you just looking to take an emotional moral stance on something and get riled up over something that's largely inconsequential to you?  

 

You need to research more items.

There are Ascended items with much greater gaps than you cherry picked.

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71385-lost-seal-of-usoku-infused
72+32= 104 power
51+18= 69 toughness
51+18= 69 vitality
== 242

(this does not even add in the infusion slot that is at least known to be +5 stats so far

Link that shows infusion slot: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lost_Seal_of_Usoku

Link that shows infusion option: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precise_Infusion)

http://www.gw2db.com/items/47737-invaders-ring
67 power
48 toughness
48 vitality
== 163
The stat increase from Exotic to Ascended quality is 48%.
 

Please don't mislead people and next time link to the items you are talking about if you would.

Here are some MORE ascended items if people want to make their own minds up by doing their own calculations on things they use as stats.

http://www.gw2db.com/items?filter-item-rarity=8

 

Let's not even talk about the fact that no one is limited to only wearing ONE ascended item in the game. There is going to be an entire set of gear in the future and weapons.

 

You didn't include the gem with the Invader's Ring you linked, which gives an additional 25 power, 15 vitality and 15 toughness (or 25/15/15 of whichever stats you want), for the same exact total stats as the ring I included: 218.  Ascended items cannot have gems put in them.  This is 42 stat points less than the ascended equivalent, or 11%, most definitely not 48%.  Now I'm sure you weren't intentionally trying to skew the stats in your favor, just as I didn't intentionally choose an ascended ring that had fewer stats, so I won't accuse you of doing so.  I looked at 3 rings quickly and they all had the same stat breakdown.  Not sure why the one you linked has 1 more point for each stat.

Asuming the % stat gain is the same or relatively the same for all ascended gear, your TOTAL stat-from-gear increase with a FULL set of ascended gear would be within that 9-11% range.  Just the 2 pieces that are out now would only increase your total stats from gear by no more than 1.5% assuming you previously had full exotics.  And remember stats from gear are only a portion of your character's total stats.  

I didn't include a gem because I didn't count the infusion slot. Why would I count one on one piece of gear and not on another. Since you didn't talk about gems I had no clue you added them in. The comparisons we made weren't on everything so I still suggest that someone come up with their own numbers.

There are consumables too especially for W3 that people use like

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sharpening_Stone

Gain power equal to 6% of your toughness
Gain power equal to 4% of your vitality

that would scale with stat increases. Now I'm not saying one piece of anything is likely to make your opponent he-man but you add all the gear set (that is coming) together and there will be a large difference. We can revisit the convo in the next year once it's all introduced if you like.

There are class skills too that are percentage based to boost one stat when you increase another. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness
Guardian Retributive Armor (5% toughness given as a bonus to precision)
Warrior Armored Attack (5% toughness given as a bonus to power)
Engineer Energized Armor (5% toughness given as a bonus to power)
Mesmer Chaotic Transference (5% toughness given as a bonus to condition damage)
Necromancer Deadly Strength (5% toughness given as a bonus to power)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Truffle_Ravioli

+100 Toughness
+70 Precision

As an example, I didn't build for anything but toughness for W3 and got all my dmg from my toughness with buffs in the class and the consumables gave me perks. Every few points of toughness would be a point for me on precision or power (maintenance oil) and condition dmg (trait) so while my points were spread out more, I got more and was built like a tank. That's why when I looked for a piece of something, I looked for toughness. I remember all the consumables related to it. That's the min/maxing you don't hear about. I was in green gear taking on 4 people at a time, my profession skills helped but I was able to solo out there without much threat because I had stealth skills too.

Orange gear had the only distance from me of cash (I didn't have cash because I bought siege weapons all the time). Ascended gear isn't cash based and whenever they DO get around to introducing it in 6mos or more, it will probably be bought with those low drop rate annoying badges, something you don't get often doing what I did, killing dolyaks, control points, guarding areas and calling out enemy movement, repairing doors and walls, and taking supply camps every once in awhile. Add in too that deaths out there in the W3 cost gear repair, I could throw away green gear and it cost less to repurchase it. You can't do that with exotic and ascended can you. I didn't just wear green gear because it was cheap but because it was a low entry fee to get me where I wanted to be, fighting in large scale pvp.

Originally posted by greenreen

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by greenreen

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

Originally posted by Thupli

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

"we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve."

In other words, we are going to lie to you  now and say we always intended to be a WOW clone and that our Manifesto was total BS the entire time, god its only going to get worse now, if you don't like grinding gear I advise you get a refund while you still can.

Before this patch there was vertical progression of gear in the game.  Once you hit 80 you had to gear up blue to green to exotic.  Why weren't you screaming about it and calling them liars then?

No you didn't those stat increases were marginal, Ascended not only ups the bar on the stats, it also creates a mandatory window to do the dungeons because of Agony. Hell even if the stats were the same adding agony alone creates its own treadmill. Not to mention the boost it will give in WvWvW. Before this patch you would have passively picked up applicable greens and blues anyway just by playing the game. Ascended gear forces the issue and makes what used to be optional dungeons into a mandatory grind. I wont waste too much time arguing about it since frankly I am looking/waiting for other games now. If you are happy with it fine by me.

Concerning stat improvement, let's look at 5 rings of the same stat type but of varying quality.  I chose Chyrsocola (condi/power/vit).  

	Fine	Masterwork	Rare	Exotic	Ascended
Condition damage	41(14)	55(18)	59(21)	67(25)	71(32)
Power	29(10)	39(12)	42(13)	48(15)	50(18)
Vitality	29(10)	39(12)	42(13)	48(15)	50(18)
Total Stats	133	175	190	218	239

Stats in parenthesis are from gems of a similar quality.  For ascended items, these stats are incorporated into the item itself and they come with a specific infusion slot. 

The stat increase from Fine to Masterwork quality is 31.6%

The stat increase from Masterwork to Rare quality is 8.6%

The stat increase from Rare to Exotic quality is 14.7%

The stat increase from Exotic to Ascended quality is 9.6%.

 

So no, the stat increases between the other qualities were NOT any more marginal than the increase from exotic to ascended.  And the statement "before this patch you would have passively picked up applicable blues and greens anyway by just playing the game" is rendered ludicrous any which way you meant it it.  For one, you still passively pick up blues and greens.  As far as them being "applicable," they were never applicable to anything at least as far as min/maxers are concerned, who are the ONLY people who have a reasonable issue with the new ascended gear.  If you used "applicable blues and greens" before, you can still use them now; but they will be just as bad.  And if you used green/blue gear before, you obviously weren't a min/maxer, you were already playing while extremely underpowered relative to many of your peers (and presumably either didn't notice or didn't care), and you have no more reason to care now.  If you were actually doing WvW in "applicable blues/greens," then you were fighting enemies in exotics who had between 24.6 and 63.9% more stats from gear.  If you didn't care about that, you sure as hell shouldn't care about the extra 10% gap.  

Concerning min/maxers, many of them were the exact players looking for something else to progress toward because previous statistical min/maxing could be achieved so quickly after reaching 80 in GW2.  I honestly don't think these people are the one's doing much of the complaining.  

Lastly, concerning Agony and infusions, we really have no clue where Anet is going with these yet.  Any speculation about gating content is just that: speculation.  Currently, the only thing it "gates" is level XX of FotM.  Once again, to min/maxers and hardcore progressionists, this probably won't be gated at all, as they will get the gear.  To everyone else, especially those who are complaining about grinding FotM, the only thing this gates you from is doing MORE FOTM.  Do you really care about this or are you just looking to take an emotional moral stance on something and get riled up over something that's largely inconsequential to you?  

 

You need to research more items.

There are Ascended items with much greater gaps than you cherry picked.

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71385-lost-seal-of-usoku-infused
72+32= 104 power
51+18= 69 toughness
51+18= 69 vitality
== 242

(this does not even add in the infusion slot that is at least known to be +5 stats so far

Link that shows infusion slot: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lost_Seal_of_Usoku

Link that shows infusion option: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precise_Infusion)

http://www.gw2db.com/items/47737-invaders-ring
67 power
48 toughness
48 vitality
== 163
The stat increase from Exotic to Ascended quality is 48%.
 

Please don't mislead people and next time link to the items you are talking about if you would.

Here are some MORE ascended items if people want to make their own minds up by doing their own calculations on things they use as stats.

http://www.gw2db.com/items?filter-item-rarity=8

 

Let's not even talk about the fact that no one is limited to only wearing ONE ascended item in the game. There is going to be an entire set of gear in the future and weapons.

 

You didn't include the gem with the Invader's Ring you linked, which gives an additional 25 power, 15 vitality and 15 toughness (or 25/15/15 of whichever stats you want), for the same exact total stats as the ring I included: 218.  Ascended items cannot have gems put in them.  This is 42 stat points less than the ascended equivalent, or 11%, most definitely not 48%.  Now I'm sure you weren't intentionally trying to skew the stats in your favor, just as I didn't intentionally choose an ascended ring that had fewer stats, so I won't accuse you of doing so.  I looked at 3 rings quickly and they all had the same stat breakdown.  Not sure why the one you linked has 1 more point for each stat.

Asuming the % stat gain is the same or relatively the same for all ascended gear, your TOTAL stat-from-gear increase with a FULL set of ascended gear would be within that 9-11% range.  Just the 2 pieces that are out now would only increase your total stats from gear by no more than 1.5% assuming you previously had full exotics.  And remember stats from gear are only a portion of your character's total stats.  

I didn't include a gem because I didn't count the infusion slot. Why would I count one on one piece of gear and not on another. Since you didn't talk about gems I had no clue you added them in. The comparisons we made weren't on everything so I still suggest that someone come up with their own numbers. There are consumables too especially for W3 that people use like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sharpening_Stone that would scale with stat increases. Now I'm not saying one piece of anything is likely to make your opponent he-man but you add all the gear set (that is coming) together and there will be a large difference. We can revisit the convo in the next year once it's all introduced if you like.

 

Heh, I highlighted the part where I talked about the gems and infusion slots in my original post.  And you would count gems and not infusion slots for 2 reasons.  

First, the ascended gear was balanced specifically by adding a little to the stats from the gear piece AND a gem of the same stat type.  This is seen by the way stats on the rings are broken down, which is something like the following: 

71 power

50 precision

50 vitality

32 power

18 precision

18 vitality

The stats repeat to highlight the increase in base stats and the increase in gem stats.  It doesn't have to be displayed this way.  I suspect Anet simply wanted to make it more apparent to players exactly where the stats were derrived from.  

Second, aside from the specific content that requires the special infusion stat, that infusion adds absolutely nothing to the piece of gear.  Currently the only infusion stat is Agony.  A player can have 1 million agony resistance in WvW or any PvE area outside of high levels of FotM and it won't mean squat.  I think the argument could be made that it would be an interesting gear dynamic if exotics had slightly higher total stats but Ascended gear provided infusions, offering a variety of effects (which we still don't know about yet.)  But then I don't think players would be interested in ascended gear at all--at least not if infusion is only useful for what it is currently useful for, which is only to run a harder version of the same exact dungeon you had to run repeatedly to get the ascended item in the first place.  

To summarize: Ascended gear's total stats are meant to be slightly higher than exotic gear with gems included.  They were balanced specifically around that.  The infusion is indpendent of the stat argument entirely because it is a non statistical bonus to help you combat specific content only.  

I agree that this conversation can resume way down the road, which was part of my point.  Most of players' fears are based on speculation about how this is going to play out, not how anything is practically being affected right now.  

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Scalpless

Originally posted by Naevius

The most worrisome thing in the Reddit thread was actually the hint of a level cap increase. That would instantly make ALL gear obsolete.

A level increase is very likely to come in an expansion, based on what they said in pre-release interviews.

 

They did say that.

 

People really need to read everything - Ascended Items were suggested also. Nothing here is new. Yes, they did a bad introduction but that is all.

Do you think if they introuduced Ascended gear differently GW2 fans would have been more receiving?

 

After 2 1/2 weeks, I haven't heard Aerowyn weigh in on this one. I'm really surprised. People on this site seemed to like the way she/he explained things.

Probably would have been taken better, but a sh*tstorm would've also started because people in general love hyperbole, assumptions and rhetoric.

What I wish is that Anet did a better job explaining things the first time around and not after people start raging over nothing.

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by greenreen

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by greenreen

Originally posted by Homitu

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

Originally posted by Thupli

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

"we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve."

In other words, we are going to lie to you  now and say we always intended to be a WOW clone and that our Manifesto was total BS the entire time, god its only going to get worse now, if you don't like grinding gear I advise you get a refund while you still can.

Before this patch there was vertical progression of gear in the game.  Once you hit 80 you had to gear up blue to green to exotic.  Why weren't you screaming about it and calling them liars then?

No you didn't those stat increases were marginal, Ascended not only ups the bar on the stats, it also creates a mandatory window to do the dungeons because of Agony. Hell even if the stats were the same adding agony alone creates its own treadmill. Not to mention the boost it will give in WvWvW. Before this patch you would have passively picked up applicable greens and blues anyway just by playing the game. Ascended gear forces the issue and makes what used to be optional dungeons into a mandatory grind. I wont waste too much time arguing about it since frankly I am looking/waiting for other games now. If you are happy with it fine by me.

Concerning stat improvement, let's look at 5 rings of the same stat type but of varying quality.  I chose Chyrsocola (condi/power/vit).  

	Fine	Masterwork	Rare	Exotic	Ascended
Condition damage	41(14)	55(18)	59(21)	67(25)	71(32)
Power	29(10)	39(12)	42(13)	48(15)	50(18)
Vitality	29(10)	39(12)	42(13)	48(15)	50(18)
Total Stats	133	175	190	218	239

Stats in parenthesis are from gems of a similar quality.  For ascended items, these stats are incorporated into the item itself and they come with a specific infusion slot. 

The stat increase from Fine to Masterwork quality is 31.6%

The stat increase from Masterwork to Rare quality is 8.6%

The stat increase from Rare to Exotic quality is 14.7%

The stat increase from Exotic to Ascended quality is 9.6%.

 

So no, the stat increases between the other qualities were NOT any more marginal than the increase from exotic to ascended.  And the statement "before this patch you would have passively picked up applicable blues and greens anyway by just playing the game" is rendered ludicrous any which way you meant it it.  For one, you still passively pick up blues and greens.  As far as them being "applicable," they were never applicable to anything at least as far as min/maxers are concerned, who are the ONLY people who have a reasonable issue with the new ascended gear.  If you used "applicable blues and greens" before, you can still use them now; but they will be just as bad.  And if you used green/blue gear before, you obviously weren't a min/maxer, you were already playing while extremely underpowered relative to many of your peers (and presumably either didn't notice or didn't care), and you have no more reason to care now.  If you were actually doing WvW in "applicable blues/greens," then you were fighting enemies in exotics who had between 24.6 and 63.9% more stats from gear.  If you didn't care about that, you sure as hell shouldn't care about the extra 10% gap.  

Concerning min/maxers, many of them were the exact players looking for something else to progress toward because previous statistical min/maxing could be achieved so quickly after reaching 80 in GW2.  I honestly don't think these people are the one's doing much of the complaining.  

Lastly, concerning Agony and infusions, we really have no clue where Anet is going with these yet.  Any speculation about gating content is just that: speculation.  Currently, the only thing it "gates" is level XX of FotM.  Once again, to min/maxers and hardcore progressionists, this probably won't be gated at all, as they will get the gear.  To everyone else, especially those who are complaining about grinding FotM, the only thing this gates you from is doing MORE FOTM.  Do you really care about this or are you just looking to take an emotional moral stance on something and get riled up over something that's largely inconsequential to you?  

 

You need to research more items.

There are Ascended items with much greater gaps than you cherry picked.

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71385-lost-seal-of-usoku-infused
72+32= 104 power
51+18= 69 toughness
51+18= 69 vitality
== 242

(this does not even add in the infusion slot that is at least known to be +5 stats so far

Link that shows infusion slot: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lost_Seal_of_Usoku

Link that shows infusion option: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precise_Infusion)

http://www.gw2db.com/items/47737-invaders-ring
67 power
48 toughness
48 vitality
== 163
The stat increase from Exotic to Ascended quality is 48%.
 

Please don't mislead people and next time link to the items you are talking about if you would.

Here are some MORE ascended items if people want to make their own minds up by doing their own calculations on things they use as stats.

http://www.gw2db.com/items?filter-item-rarity=8

 

Let's not even talk about the fact that no one is limited to only wearing ONE ascended item in the game. There is going to be an entire set of gear in the future and weapons.

 

You didn't include the gem with the Invader's Ring you linked, which gives an additional 25 power, 15 vitality and 15 toughness (or 25/15/15 of whichever stats you want), for the same exact total stats as the ring I included: 218.  Ascended items cannot have gems put in them.  This is 42 stat points less than the ascended equivalent, or 11%, most definitely not 48%.  Now I'm sure you weren't intentionally trying to skew the stats in your favor, just as I didn't intentionally choose an ascended ring that had fewer stats, so I won't accuse you of doing so.  I looked at 3 rings quickly and they all had the same stat breakdown.  Not sure why the one you linked has 1 more point for each stat.

Asuming the % stat gain is the same or relatively the same for all ascended gear, your TOTAL stat-from-gear increase with a FULL set of ascended gear would be within that 9-11% range.  Just the 2 pieces that are out now would only increase your total stats from gear by no more than 1.5% assuming you previously had full exotics.  And remember stats from gear are only a portion of your character's total stats.  

I didn't include a gem because I didn't count the infusion slot. Why would I count one on one piece of gear and not on another. Since you didn't talk about gems I had no clue you added them in. The comparisons we made weren't on everything so I still suggest that someone come up with their own numbers. There are consumables too especially for W3 that people use like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sharpening_Stone that would scale with stat increases. Now I'm not saying one piece of anything is likely to make your opponent he-man but you add all the gear set (that is coming) together and there will be a large difference. We can revisit the convo in the next year once it's all introduced if you like.

 

Heh, I highlighted the part where I talked about the gems and infusion slots in my original post.  And you would count gems and not infusion slots for 2 reasons.  

First, the ascended gear was balanced specifically by adding a little to the stats from the gear piece AND a gem of the same stat type.  This is seen by the way stats on the rings are broken down, which is something like the following: 

71 power

50 precision

50 vitality

32 power

18 precision

18 vitality

The stats repeat to highlight the increase in base stats and the increase in gem stats.  It doesn't have to be displayed this way.  I suspect Anet simply wanted to make it more apparent to players exactly where the stats were derrived from.  

Second, aside from the specific content that requires the special infusion stat, that infusion adds absolutely nothing to the piece of gear.  Currently the only infusion stat is Agony.  A player can have 1 million agony resistance in WvW or any PvE area outside of high levels of FotM and it won't mean squat.  I think the argument could be made that it would be an interesting gear dynamic if exotics had slightly higher total stats but Ascended gear provided infusions, offering a variety of effects (which we still don't know about yet.)  But then I don't think players would be interested in ascended gear at all--at least not if infusion is only useful for what it is currently useful for, which is only to run a harder version of the same exact dungeon you had to run repeatedly to get the ascended item in the first place.  

To summarize: Ascended gear's total stats are meant to be slightly higher than exotic gear with gems included.  They were balanced specifically around that.  The infusion is indpendent of the stat argument entirely because it is a non statistical bonus to help you combat specific content only.  

I agree that this conversation can resume way down the road, which was part of my point.  Most of players' fears are based on speculation about how this is going to play out, not how anything is practically being affected right now.  

Infusion adds a few stats but according the AMA they expect to scale it over time.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malign_Infusion

That's why what was said doesn't alleviate anything when it comes to stats being a complaint.

We all asked on the forum, why did you add stats to agony if it's just for gating, they didn't respond and their response now is - we never said we weren't going to progress vertically.

See, right now it's only +5, what happens as people go deeper into the neverending dungeon, they will need more agony resistance and along with that will come more stats. That's where ppl are bothered, that the stats were coupled with the mechanic, even gamebreakertv pointed it out in the guildcast and they are like  mmorpg, they don't like talking down on things because sometimes there are potential interviews or advertisements that won't be theirs. I consider that pretty large for them to openly talk about things like this when it could be money they give up.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/guildcast-guild-wars-show/fear-the-gear-grind/

That video shows both sides of the argument unlike most things so maybe you would enjoy.

Originally posted by fundayz

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Scalpless

Originally posted by Naevius

The most worrisome thing in the Reddit thread was actually the hint of a level cap increase. That would instantly make ALL gear obsolete.

A level increase is very likely to come in an expansion, based on what they said in pre-release interviews.

 

They did say that.

 

People really need to read everything - Ascended Items were suggested also. Nothing here is new. Yes, they did a bad introduction but that is all.

Do you think if they introuduced Ascended gear differently GW2 fans would have been more receiving?

 

After 2 1/2 weeks, I haven't heard Aerowyn weigh in on this one. I'm really surprised. People on this site seemed to like the way she/he explained things.

Probably would have been taken better, but a sh*tstorm would've also started because people in general love hyperbole, assumptions and rhetoric.

What I wish is that Anet did a better job explaining things the first time around and not after people start raging over nothing.

 

Agreed.

Originally posted by romanator0
I really hope people didn't expect there to be no vertical progression at all eventually introduced into GW2. It was confirmed before the game's launch that ArenaNet would be raising the level cap with expansions.

Extending the power curve hand in hand with a level cap increase tied to an expansion is a very different thing than this new non-expansion curve/progression/treadmill extension/creation.

Read this old official blogpost and it should be obvious that something has gone off the rails since launch:

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

Legendaries represent a huge time/effort investment and even in the face of that, Arenanet made a big deal about the fact that Legendaries were all about cosmetics/prestige and would NOT be any more powerful than Exotic Weapons. This just supported other comments they made prior to release which pretty firmly implied that there would be zero gear stat inflation outside of a full expansion.

Ascended gear is a complete departure from this and also presents consequences related to the future stat progression when the first expansion does come out. Instead of the smooth progression between level one and the new level cap, there will be a rather large bump at level 80. In a game where level scaling is a key, core feature, this has to have a negative impact.

It seems likely that Eric Flannum and Colin Johanson are on the team developing the first expansion. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem the Chris Whiteside has the same grasp of and respect for the core design philosophy of the game. There is a lot of backsliding into old MMO design pitfalls, which is obviously going to anger a lot of people who have chosen to play the game, in part, because of the ways in which the game is different than the stale old MMO design.

To return to the linked blog post, is it fun? Well, Fractals of the Mist itself is fun, but it would have been at least as fun, if not more so, with out the attached gear inflation treadmill. Dito for the botched difficulty level system, which is completely fragmenting the GW2 community. A very nice dungeon and encompassing concept tainted by an inexplicable backsliding in the direction of old, failed MMO design tropes.

I still love the game. Fortunately, the game is so massive and there is so much to do I can ignore the elements I don't enjoy and still have fun. However, I'll admit it's hard to ignore a huge mis-step that might just represent a change in design philosophy that could deeply damage the nature and spirit of the game I've come to enjoy and admire.

Originally posted by Naevius

Don't get me wrong, I wish the Ascended gear didn't exist. But even a 5% increase in total stats is only a small factor in the game (especially since sPvP is not an issue here.)

The point is that I can't get too worked up about such a minor advantage.

The most worrisome thing in the Reddit thread was actually the hint of a level cap increase. That would instantly make ALL gear obsolete.

I'm glad that it indeed appears that the rollout of the full set of ascended gear will take about a year. I'm disturbed by the hint on the AMA that while they aren't planing any new tiers beyond Ascended, that they are considering stat inflation with in the existing tiers. If this was tied entirely to an expansion and level cap increase, that's one thing, but the implication was that this new inflation would also be occuring over the course of the next year.

A continuation of the power curve beyond level 80 would have been trivial if they had stuck with the concept of level 80 exotics representing the pre-expansion stat cap. rare skins would still be valuable as skins and most players would have gained their exotic stat gear in a relatively painless fashion, (though the level of "grind" is arguably more than originally promised).

The introduction of stat inflation pre-expansion, tied to an extremely grindy process, does indeed set up the problem common to lesser MMOs, where gear people have worked very hard to acquire becomes obsolete the minute a new expansion hits the streets!

The entire mess was predictable and avoidable. In the AMA, Chris even says that they foresaw the negative reaction and the issues, but they (he) decided to go ahead with it anyway.

Bad design is bad design and it's sad when a designer has some idea that his design is bad and still decides to go live with it in the game. We have heard all about Arenanet's itterative proccess, even how seemingly good ideas have been trashed after taking up development time because they just did not work in the game. Well, my impression is that Ascended Gear and the current FotM difficulty mechanic would never, ever have made it into the game if it had been conceptualized and developed before launch.

If they are going to toss the design ideals aside in the live environment, just because a design lead didn't have the sense to quash a bad idea before they wasted development resources on it, things will not end well for this game!

Originally posted by Scalpless
Actually, it's very likely this AMA was caused by the uproar on official forums. So, sometimes "whining" is a smart thing to do. If people don't complain, how the hell are devs supposed to know what their customers dislike? Of course, complaining here is quite pointless, but so is praising the game.

This should be closed to because its a useless argument. It's happening it's in the game and it's not changing. So basically play the game or quit. We get it some of you care bears don't want to leave LA and want welfare gear. Well too bad this isn't wow thank god. This game has all types of content and addresses multiple players. You can either suck it up deal with it or go.

But don't constantly whine some where people have zero power to sway anything. Hell whining on the official forum does nothing as well. So give it a rest and move along with your life. Unless ofcourse your trolling then I say again mods close all the post like this. It's pointless banter and flaming a subject that is pretty much finished.

Originally posted by Silentstorm

This should be closed to because its a useless argument. It's happening it's in the game and it's not changing. So basically play the game or quit. We get it some of you care bears don't want to leave LA and want welfare gear. Well too bad this isn't wow thank god. This game has all types of content and addresses multiple players. You can either suck it up deal with it or go.

But don't constantly whine some where people have zero power to sway anything. Hell whining on the official forum does nothing as well. So give it a rest and move along with your life. Unless ofcourse your trolling then I say again mods close all the post like this. It's pointless banter and flaming a subject that is pretty much finished.

Carebears?, what do people that are scared of pvp have to do with anything?

Is this some gear grinder revisionist history?

Originally posted by Silentstorm

This should be closed to because its a useless argument. It's happening it's in the game and it's not changing. So basically play the game or quit. We get it some of you care bears don't want to leave LA and want welfare gear. Well too bad this isn't wow thank god. This game has all types of content and addresses multiple players. You can either suck it up deal with it or go.

But don't constantly whine some where people have zero power to sway anything. Hell whining on the official forum does nothing as well. So give it a rest and move along with your life. Unless ofcourse your trolling then I say again mods close all the post like this. It's pointless banter and flaming a subject that is pretty much finished.

The community does have the ability to influence the direction of the game, which is why many of us take the time to write on subjects like these.

They knew these things weren't going to be well received. They were right and they haven't been. There has been a complete failure on their part to explain and justify the about face on gear progression. Trying to claim that this was always their intention and they never said anything in the past to lead us to believe there would be no gear inflation outside of inflation tied to a level cap increase just makes matter that much worse.

Some of us were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and awaited some well reasoned explaination and additional clarification that would put our concerns at ease. Well, guess what, they've failed completely at the half hearted attempt for explaining these design decisions. In fact, it's not hard to take away from the recent AMA that they know they messed up. They knew that the community wouldn't like it, they know these design changes were very problematic, they know these things should never have been rolled out "as is", but they did so anyway because they wasted a lot of development resources on the mess and decided it was better to release a mess than release nothing at all!

They have talked extensively about their internal, iterative process. While developing the game, they were willing to try ideas in game and if they didn't work, they didn't sweat the lost development time. They didn't let egos get in the way. If it didn't work in the context of the game, they removed it and moved on.

Well, now the game is live. It may be more embarrassing to have to admit a mistake to the world than it is to admit a mistake to your co-workers, but there is no reason they should abandon their proven process. They tried it. It doesn't suit the greater context of the game. Experiment tried. Experiment failed. Time to put the kibosh on it an move on.

Ascended gear is, was and will be a mistake. Luckily, they've only introduced Ascended Rings and back pieces. They should freeze it right there. No Infusion Inflation. No Ascended Accessories, Amulets, armor or weapons. Nix it and reserve future stat inflation for expansions and level cap increases.

The way they implimented the difficulty system for FotM was also a mistake. Rankings should have been designed with a reset and if they anticipated people reaching level 30 difficulty in a week, then the system should have been designed around tiers from the start. Given how aggressively they have squashed legitimate farming strategies every where else in the game, how did they ever decide that a persistant difficulty level stat, that never resets and guarantees players with higher rating greatly superior rewards was a good idea? It's such a mind bogglingly bad idea that it's hard to understand how it ever got off the drawing board, let alone into the game!

The game itself is a lesson in superb, thoughtful, holistic game design. Everything about the November update, except for the FotM dungeon fractals themselves, is just a lesson in bad, stale, thoughtless game design with no appreciation for the greater context in which those designs need to fit. Bad, bad, bad.

Originally posted by Silentstorm

 We get it some of you care bears don't want to leave LA and want welfare gear.

     What i find hilarious about this is that all the people who are fine with the changes are the ones currently spamming in LA all day. As someone who is not happy with the recent changes, i hate going to LA for any reason now as its nothing but a reminder of why im thinking of quitting as soon as something else promising comes along. But in the meantime ill be playing the rest of the game, while everyone else enjoys thier "welfare gear" farming in LA.

Originally posted by Sleepyfish

Originally posted by Silentstorm

This should be closed to because its a useless argument. It's happening it's in the game and it's not changing. So basically play the game or quit. We get it some of you care bears don't want to leave LA and want welfare gear. Well too bad this isn't wow thank god. This game has all types of content and addresses multiple players. You can either suck it up deal with it or go.

But don't constantly whine some where people have zero power to sway anything. Hell whining on the official forum does nothing as well. So give it a rest and move along with your life. Unless ofcourse your trolling then I say again mods close all the post like this. It's pointless banter and flaming a subject that is pretty much finished.

Carebears?, what do people that are scared of pvp have to do with anything?

Is this some gear grinder revisionist history?

Where do you get this scared of pvp non sense from? Carebears are people who are too scared basically do anything outside of the box. It's not limited just to pvp its everything considered needing a little strength to do.They whine at the littlest amount of effort needed to be on par with the rest of the population. Which is EXACTLY what is going on right now whining. So if your going to quote me in BUTT in on a conversation atleast know wtf you are talking about in attempts to being humerous.

If you know anything about me and what I do which you don't obviously. You know even way before this I preached options and doing everything. That means PVE/Exploring/Hidden quest/Grinding/PVE....Look at all my vids I said it over and over and been posted in this forum over and over. Don't quote me if you know zip about me failure. And this is proving the point on these threads should be closed. People are just whining and have nothing more to say.

Carebear Definition

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Originally posted by Sleepyfish

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Originally posted by Silentstorm This should be closed to because its a useless argument. It's happening it's in the game and it's not changing. So basically play the game or quit. We get it some of you care bears don't want to leave LA and want welfare gear. Well too bad this isn't wow thank god. This game has all types of content and addresses multiple players. You can either suck it up deal with it or go. But don't constantly whine some where people have zero power to sway anything. Hell whining on the official forum does nothing as well. So give it a rest and move along with your life. Unless ofcourse your trolling then I say again mods close all the post like this. It's pointless banter and flaming a subject that is pretty much finished.

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Carebears?, what do people that are scared of pvp have to do with anything?

Is this some gear grinder revisionist history?

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bro your feels are showing. /hug

Sleepy you just got head shotted again with the Urban Dictionary no less just stop.

I haven't seen a forum ass kicking this bad since Aion went F2p. You may want to look at the dudes channel, and definition

number 2 on that link. And just walk away before you get owned any further.