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EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » So Tengu and Drakes are getting nerfed...

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81 posts found
  Crazy_Stick

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/12
Posts: 1072

12/10/12 5:00:23 PM#61
Originally posted by Teala
Biggest news coming from EVE is the death of WIS.   Team Avatar is no more and WIS is not even going to be a part of the game any longer.   So the walking in closets is all WIS will ever be.   Here I thought CCP was a game company that was truly making a difference in the MMO industry...I was sadly mistaken.   

 

I was favorable toward WIS when the whole idea first began because it allowed more game play possibilities and really threatened to open up New Eden as a living setting. The idea of being able to delve a wormhole, locate the ruins of a sleeper colony or station, and then go inside it on the ground to get artifacts and make discoveries too was HUGE to me. Put that kind of space and ground game together and you’ve a fan for life in me. Factional fighting for planet side resources was a given.

 

All those ideas and possibilities were flushed into DUST514. DUST looked like sucha cool idea for the first while. Then? Little 48 man battle maps without real point and only for PS3 owners. That’s all it will ever be and it simply doesn't meet the expectations of PS3 players. I understand CCP wants to broaden their products appeal but you can’t just ditch your core audience that way and fail to satisfy the new market.

 

Now? Since the idea has been abandoned, I honestly wish they would get rid of the current WIS closets and go back to the old hangar interface with an added TV screen in one corner. It’s a poorly optimized waste only good for making it hard for people with lower end systems to multibox sometimes. That’s the only reason I support keeping them around, lol.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18723

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/10/12 5:19:30 PM#62
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Malcanis

Tried out my close-to-1000 DPS HAMgu last night. It has zero issues hitting Angel Elite frigates with T1 ammo, and it absolutely smashed through the BC & BS rats.

Whacking BS with T2 Rage is made much nicer by not getting the sig radius penalty, so you don't take as much DPS on approach, and effectivly none while orbiting.

 

The main change I found was that you basically have to plan 1 target group ahead, ie start moving towards the next group of ships before the current one you're hitting is finished in order to maintain your fire, compared to the old HML tengu which was basically burn to acceleration gate & orbit until all rats are dead. Make sure to reload at every opportunity when you're not firing.

 

Rigs on the Tengu are:

T1 Hydraulic Thruster

2x T2 Rigors

All in all, the experience was closer to flying a Machariel, with similar DPS. I recommend it.

LOL, does anyone still run L4s like I do, in a Battleship?  (Maelstrom in fact)  Probably not.

 

 

Try a Mach. They're much more effective (I mean a LOT) and also much less tedious to fly than a Mael. You don't need to bling-fit them at all. The only fancy goods I'd recommend are a Pith XL C-type booster and a RF Afterburner. Everything else you can just fit plain T2

[Machariel, EM-Missiony]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
[empty high slot]

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hobgoblin II x7
Hammerhead II x5
Hammerhead II x4
 

Thanks for the tip, I debated flying a Mach, and ended up going with a pretty tricked out Mael.

One question, 800's instead of 1400's?  In the Mael I was using 1400's with Republic fleet EMP as people said the falloff values for 800's was much more severe than people realized. (maybe that was specific only to the Mael)

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6486

"Only cunts name their swords"

12/10/12 5:32:10 PM#63
Originally posted by AvsRock21
Originally posted by Teala
Biggest news coming from EVE is the death of WIS.   Team Avatar is no more and WIS is not even going to be a part of the game any longer.   So the walking in closets is all WIS will ever be.   Here I thought CCP was a game company that was truly making a difference in the MMO industry...I was sadly mistaken.   

"Biggest news"??? Rofl. Hardly any EVE players care about WIS. It's a waste of time and pointless compared to other things that you can do in-game. How would CCP be making a 'difference' by making the game more like other mmos? CCP made a difference when they released EVE.

There was a lot of people, including me, who was looking forward to station walking and beyond because the feeling was that it was not immersive to be a ship. However CCP botched it by trying to turn it into a cash-cow with trying to use it to push forward their cash shop.

It backfired both on the existing playerbase and those of us waiting on the sideline. Now the back-pedaled and are back into being a ship thing. Which is alright as it will keep their current playerbase but will not do much about bringing in new people.

Second misstake they made was to make their FPS game console only. That could have brought it more people into Eve if they tied it into the space game properly. But again they botched it by making it console only.

Sorry but CCP were the indy company when they made Eve but now they are just yet another bloated studio with more money than sense.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6486

"Only cunts name their swords"

12/10/12 5:34:22 PM#64
Originally posted by Z3R01

WIS was too much for CCP.

Maybe if they had Blizzard resources WIS could be a full fledged addition tot he game.

Fully interaction stations, missions, mini-games, social hubs, personal shops and more.

However they can't do that and I would rather they scrap the idea than limp along taking 10 years to release whats basically meaningless Avatars walking down a hallway.

What do you mean they cant do that? They are creating a full fledged FPS so the definetely can do that. However they probably think they wont make enough money from it so they wont do that, rather than cant.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/11/12 12:25:16 PM#65
Originally posted by Malcanis

With 2x T2 Rigors and Guided Missile Precision V, I had no problems at all killing Frigates with T1 HAMs. With the missile changes they're significantly more effective.

And using T2 Rage, I get close to 1000 DPS.  That's Mach/Nightmare class DPS, albeit only out to ~28km. If you want to call that "posing", go for it. The Tengu was a far quicker train than a Mach would have been for my mission alt.

I also used an "unprobeable" (I know they're not any more) Tengu on Malc to do Angel pirate missions and made an enormous profit on that. All those Gallente tags worked really nicely with all those Caldari LP my hi-sec alt was earning. Being able to sell 15-20 Dramiels and 10-15 Caldari Navy BCUs every week pays back the investment required for a couple of decently fitted Tengus very quickly. I still have 7 or 8 bill left from that period and I haven't really bothered to make ISK all this year. I sold my PVP-fitted pirate BS collection when the cash started running low and that paid for another 6 months of PvP :)

 

EDIT: PS there are such things as Javelin HAMs you know...

Yeah, i know about javelin. They do the exact same damage against frigs as bogstandard t1 last i checked, and that means piss poor. 

125m explosion radius unaffected by skills

101 explosion velocity affected by skills since last patch.

 

That means at most youll be applying 1/3 of your dps against a nonmoving frigate(30-40 sig), if they move it gets worse. Yeah sure 200dps is still plenty to kill frigs, but you won't be able to pop them with a single volley from a single turret like the nightmare. I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing). He /ragequit running missions with me because i could reliably kill an entire spawn by the time he got to it with his mwd.

Should have frapsed the crap, the cruisers and frigs went pop pop pop, i literally had trouble locking them quickly enough. Didn't even group my guns because it would have been way overkill 90% of the time.

 

I mean i have flown both, perfect skills for both aswell. There is just no comparsion. A nightmare or mach will have killed all the frigs and cruisers in a spawn(they do need a bit of distance i admit though, which is why i said there are exceptions) by the time your first volley arrives. Its simply the difference with gun vs missile mechanics. A frig burning straight at my nightmare(and all NPCs do) will be hit for 100% of the guns damage, doesn't matter if its going 2m/s, 200m/s or 2km/s. And that means INSTANT death by virtue of being hit by a single turret for any npc frigate. Which means 4 dead frigs 1-2 sec after i get a lock. No missile ship can do that. Infact for the fast frigs(like spider drones) you have to wait for them to slow down or waste oodles of ammo.

Or are you telling me your HAM tengu is doing 1000dps against mwding spider drones? 

 

P.S.: Guided missile prediction and rigor rigs don't do anything for HAMs btw. Those skills/rigs are only for guided missiles like ligh, heavies and cruise. And no, the patch didn't change THAT, target navigation prediction affects them now. 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6743

12/11/12 1:54:13 PM#66


Originally posted by Rocketeer
I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing).  

I found your problem.


Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad.

  gibo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 26

12/12/12 9:31:06 AM#67
If you liked eve but and these last changes have made you reconsider resubbing. Please give Perpetuum a try. It has similar mechanics and skilling system, the market is almost identical, pvp and mining and missions are different and more fun, than shooting red crosses all day.  I quit eve and found Perpetuum almost 2 years ago and never looked back, maybe you guys like it.
  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/12/12 11:02:47 AM#68
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer
I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing).  

 

I found your problem.


Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad.

Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6743

12/12/12 11:30:03 AM#69


Originally posted by Rocketeer

Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

Or could it be I was talking about...the other ship?

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/12/12 11:37:23 AM#70
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

 

Or could it be I was talking about...the other ship?

"Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad." <-- Is this your quote?

In reply to this quote:

"I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing)."

 

If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.

 

That being said a sacriledge does about 10% less damage than a 6 launcher tengu against rats you would use a nightmare against, while having higher topspeed, acceleration and able to be used as tackle. It is a very, very sensible choice over the tengu in a mission tandem where its not going to be primary dps anyway.

 

Edit: Especially taking cost efficiency into account.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6743

12/12/12 11:57:53 AM#71


Originally posted by Rocketeer

If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.

"You" also implies plural - all of you, any of you.

  Malcanis

Novice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3197

"A very special kind of stupidity"

12/12/12 12:41:27 PM#72
Originally posted by Rocketeer
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

 

Or could it be I was talking about...the other ship?

"Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad." <-- Is this your quote?

In reply to this quote:

"I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing)."

 

If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.

 

That being said a sacriledge does about 10% less damage than a 6 launcher tengu against rats you would use a nightmare against, while having higher topspeed, acceleration and able to be used as tackle. It is a very, very sensible choice over the tengu in a mission tandem where its not going to be primary dps anyway.

 

Edit: Especially taking cost efficiency into account.

 

You appear to be operating under a few misconceptions.

First, Retribution changed short range missiles; Guided Missile Precision now applies, as do rigor rigs and precision implants.

Secondly, I would be fascinated to see your friends "90% of Tengu" DPS Sacri fit. The most I can get with T2 Rage and 5 Estamels BCUs, +5% Rof & Damage implants is 790 @ 16.9Km. Wheras my HAM Tengu is getting 1042 @ 29.1Km. Where is he getting that extra 147 DPS from?

Realistically, he's using no more than 4 T2 BCUs, and even with implants that puts him at around 680 missile DPS. I'm sorry to break this to you, but the Sac is hugely inferior to the Tengu as a PvE missile boat. There's no away around this. That puts him at about 30% less DPS and 50% less range than a HAM Tengu. He'd actually get more damage with a DPS-fitted Drake.

 

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/12/12 12:47:51 PM#73
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.


 

"You" also implies plural - all of you, any of you.

So what, wea re some commune now that decides together which ship to use? He picks the ship he likes, i pick the ship i like. His choice was poor because HAM/HMLs suck in missions compared to BS sized lasers thats hardly my fault. If he had chosen a tengu instead, the outcome would have been exactly the same. The 1k dps of a ham tengu is conditional to a big slow moving target within your range that is not using defenders. If it takes you 20 sec to close to your range, another 10 sec to kill it you didn't do 1k dps, you did 300 dps. 

Morale of the story is missiles on any ship match badly with any high performance turret BS, because stuff WILL explode before your missiles or your ship reach it, and there is no target thats better left to missiles because turrets at range are efficent against frigs and cruisers alike.

The issue is traveltime, 30km range is simply not enough for many many missions. And even with a MWD it takes up to a full minute to reach a spawn thats 70-100km away. And your speed means nothing when a machariel is actually faster than a tengu while having upto 30% more dps than a tengu.

 

It has been done to death on forums and in theory, it has been tested ingame and people have compared their missiontimes. T3 are simply worse than wellfitted BS for lvl 4 missions. Range is king, followed by DPS and then tank since no amount of dps will allow you to make up the time it takes you to fly a 100km detour for that spawn opposite the acceleration gate. And killing a bunch of tough frigs on approach when they have the sig of a cruiser is the best way to deal with them, HAM range, even if it wasn't for its poor performance agaisnt fast targets, is too short for that.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6743

12/12/12 12:57:06 PM#74


Originally posted by Rocketeer

His choice was poor because HAM/HMLs suck in missions compared to BS sized lasers thats hardly my fault.


The poor choice was Sacrilege, not HAM/HML.

because as you said yourself:



Originally posted by Rocketeer

T3 are simply worse than wellfitted BS for lvl 4 missions. Range is king, followed by DPS and then tank


You gotta decide whether you want to pick right ship for the job or pick a ship you like.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/12/12 1:05:44 PM#75
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Rocketeer
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

Calling a nightmare a very poor ship for missions shows the level of your expertise.

 

Or could it be I was talking about...the other ship?

"Just because you pick very poor ship for missions does not make HAMs bad." <-- Is this your quote?

In reply to this quote:

"I have run level 4 missions in a nightmare with a friend in a HAM fitted sacriledge(he needed the standing)."

 

If so, no you where talking about the nightmare. Unless you meant to imply i pick my friends ships, which makes no sense at all and is certainly implied nowhere in my posts.

 

That being said a sacriledge does about 10% less damage than a 6 launcher tengu against rats you would use a nightmare against, while having higher topspeed, acceleration and able to be used as tackle. It is a very, very sensible choice over the tengu in a mission tandem where its not going to be primary dps anyway.

 

Edit: Especially taking cost efficiency into account.

 

You appear to be operating under a few misconceptions.

First, Retribution changed short range missiles; Guided Missile Precision now applies, as do rigor rigs and precision implants. 

Your right, i confused it with target navigation prediction.

Secondly, I would be fascinated to see your friends "90% of Tengu" DPS Sacri fit. The most I can get with T2 Rage and 5 Estamels BCUs, +5% Rof & Damage implants is 790 @ 16.9Km. Wheras my HAM Tengu is getting 1042 @ 29.1Km. Where is he getting that extra 147 DPS from?

Sacri: 5 Launcher x 1.25 Damage / 0.75 RoF = 8.3 Effective launcher with any ammo + 3 Light drones.

Tengu: 6 Launchers / 0.625 RoF = 9.6 Effective launcher with any ammo but kinetic.

I didn't bother entering fittings into eve fit, just did some rough math in my head but still it shouldn't be that far off. And yes we fought rats weak to EM and Therm which influenced his ship choice.

Realistically, he's using no more than 4 T2 BCUs, and even with implants that puts him at around 680 missile DPS. I'm sorry to break this to you, but the Sac is hugely inferior to the Tengu as a PvE missile boat. There's no away around this. That puts him at about 30% less DPS and 50% less range than a HAM Tengu. He'd actually get more damage with a DPS-fitted Drake.

Im curious how such a spread is supposed to be possible given the difference in effective launchers. Multiplying amount of launchers with damage boni and rate of fire is basic math, and there simply is no 30% spread between them. 

Ofc if you use kinetic missiles tengu pulls ahead, but sometimes you can't.

 

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/12/12 1:16:37 PM#76
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

 

His choice was poor because HAM/HMLs suck in missions compared to BS sized lasers thats hardly my fault.


 

The poor choice was Sacrilege, not HAM/HML.

because as you said yourself:

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

 

T3 are simply worse than wellfitted BS for lvl 4 missions. Range is king, followed by DPS and then tank


 

You gotta decide whether you want to pick right ship for the job or pick a ship you like.

Sacri is 1.5km/s, Tengu is 1.27km/s on MWD. 130m/s top speed vs 10km range on weapons would not have affected the situation of him not reaching a spawn 90km away before i nearly obliterated it. He felt useless in a 150 mil ship, had he flown a tengu he would have felt useless in a 800 mil ship.

The damage difference between the tengu using non kinetic missiles vs a sacri doing the same with 3 light drones would have been neglible. Certainly noticeable in a solo situation, but completely lost in a duo.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6743

12/12/12 1:20:28 PM#77


Originally posted by Rocketeer

Sacri is 1.5km/s, Tengu is 1.27km/s on MWD. 130m/s top speed vs 10km range on weapons would not have affected the situation of him not reaching a spawn 90km away before i nearly obliterated it. He felt useless in a 150 mil ship, had he flown a tengu he would have felt useless in a 800 mil ship.

The damage difference between the tengu using non kinetic missiles vs a sacri doing the same with 3 light drones would have been neglible. Certainly noticeable in a solo situation, but completely lost in a duo.


So..? I do not see your point, assuming you are trying to make one :)

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/12/12 1:41:34 PM#78
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

 

Sacri is 1.5km/s, Tengu is 1.27km/s on MWD. 130m/s top speed vs 10km range on weapons would not have affected the situation of him not reaching a spawn 90km away before i nearly obliterated it. He felt useless in a 150 mil ship, had he flown a tengu he would have felt useless in a 800 mil ship.

The damage difference between the tengu using non kinetic missiles vs a sacri doing the same with 3 light drones would have been neglible. Certainly noticeable in a solo situation, but completely lost in a duo.


 

So..? I do not see your point, assuming you are trying to make one :)

My point is that the sacri wasn't a very poor choice in the given situation compared to a tengu, kinda defending the internet honor of my totally anonymus friend here.

Sure a Tengu would have performed better on paper, maybe 20% if we are generous. But the cost increase over a sacri didn't justify the couple of seconds a tengu might or might not have shaved off the mission. What i was trying to say was that it doesn't matter wether you have 1000 or 500 dps at 30km, if your enemy is 90km away. Even a railfit T1 BS with 300dps would have served my friend better. Also missile ships, especially those lacking drones, have no good way to deal with the tougher frigate npcs.

 

Which brings us back to the topic at hand and the question:

"Will my Tengu still be top dog and have fast clear times of lvl4's?"

 

And the answer to that is that the tengu never was top dog, and the buffs it got for pvp with HAMs more than make up the hit it took on HMLs. I believe the whole discussion spiraled down to this because some people believe a Tengu was the end all be all for mission running, and this was somehow a nerf to missionrunners inturn. It wasn't and it isn't.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6743

12/12/12 1:58:12 PM#79


Originally posted by Rocketeer

My point is that the sacri wasn't a very poor choice in the given situation compared to a tengu, kinda defending the internet honor of my totally anonymus friend here.

But I wasn't saying a word about Tengu. You are arguing with yourself here :)

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/12/12 2:12:26 PM#80
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Rocketeer

My point is that the sacri wasn't a very poor choice in the given situation compared to a tengu, kinda defending the internet honor of my totally anonymus friend here.


 

But I wasn't saying a word about Tengu. You are arguing with yourself here :)

Which means i can't loose the argument. Sounds good.

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