We are plaqued by more and more threads claiming this game is full Grind, or that game is a grind, or this game just introduced a Gear grind treadmill...

Seriously?  I mean SERIOUSLY??? These games from start to finish are all about you making a character, in a fantasy world, and ADVENTURING into those worlds. Adventuring in hopes of leveling up and finding gear to IMPROVE your characters. Yes we run some areas or dungeons mulitple times in hopes of getting that new shiney treasure. However if you find it so annoying that its just become a "GRIND" why do you bother to play?

Ohhhh to think back to the nights of adventure and FUN I had back in the days of Everquest 1. Pulling for my group in Lower GUK... Every night For MONTHS!!! You know what? I never thought of it as a "GRIND" I was having fun with friends i had made in a fantasy world, hoping maybe an item I might want like that fabled FBSS might drop. Or just hoping I wouldnt make that bad pull and wipe the group, or running to help another group in need that made that bad pull. Through it all though. I was there every night to have fun... Fun is what made the game NOT GRINDY

I guess after reading thread after thread after thread, of people whining and crying like little spoiled brats it makes me wonder why half the people on these forums or many others even play these games. Does no one play the games for fun these days? They seem to self absorbed with what they have to do to get their next piece of gear and how long it takes instead of just enjoying what they are doing along the way.

Rant off.

Saying that EverQuest 1 was grindy, too, doesn't mean that current games aren't.  I never played EverQuest 1 precisely because it was far too grindy for my taste.

I don't know about you, but I play games to have fun.  In many games, I'll do quests for the sake of doing quests, even if they don't give much in the way of rewards.  But I don't like repeating the same quest a bunch of times in a row, regardless of the rewards it gives.

I didn't mind grinding at all in EQ1 - I would sit in a party in a static camp for hours on end killing the same mob over and over. Hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of playtime probably spent like that.

However, in WoW - can't stand dailies. Not even a little bit.

The difference? The party. It's a totally different animal when your with other people, particularly your friends.

In games where you have to "grind" as a group it's much more tolerable.  It's also much better if there some actual risk involved.

Unfortunately, group based mmorpg's are becoming increasingly rare as are games where there is any risk involved.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Saying that EverQuest 1 was grindy, too, doesn't mean that current games aren't.  I never played EverQuest 1 precisely because it was far too grindy for my taste.

I don't know about you, but I play games to have fun.  In many games, I'll do quests for the sake of doing quests, even if they don't give much in the way of rewards.  But I don't like repeating the same quest a bunch of times in a row, regardless of the rewards it gives.

Thats the thing though. I never felt Everquest 1 was grindy. I was there to have fun with friends. I saw the same places night after night, killed the same mobs over and over. Back when GUK and SOLB were really the only options. Ok you could do Ice Giants as well. What has changed so much in MMOs? I can think of maybe one thing? They lack alot of the social interaction. I still play my games even GW2 with friends. I usually have 2 or 3 friends with me even while exploring outside. Are they needed? No... Do they slow down leveling? Sure. However. I bet I have a heck of  alot more fun along the way then most of all the soloers.

I think the gamers these days just dont get it. Its sad really. 

Originally posted by mikecackle
Asian grinders is what developed "GRIND" into a bad term... It was endless and for very little reason.. There is such a thing as a good grind... Its been missing for years with this pathetic follow the dots quest design routine

Players not interested in a activity while wanting its rewards are what developed "grind" into a bad term, the newer games which offered the same rewards for much less work and in exchange made you repeat activities at a later point of time (endgame?) deepened that perception.

In the end the overwhelming majority of players defines grind as "the mindless thing i dont like to do", while the "mindless thing i like to do" is called fun.

So not much has changed really, just those people that would quit older games at level 40 of 100 after 3 months now quit at level 100 of 100 after 3 months.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by mikecackle
Asian grinders is what developed "GRIND" into a bad term... It was endless and for very little reason.. There is such a thing as a good grind... Its been missing for years with this pathetic follow the dots quest design routine

Players not interested in a activity while wanting its rewards are what developed "grind" into a bad term, the newer games which offered the same rewards for much less work and in exchange made you repeat activities at a later point of time (endgame?) deepened that perception.

In the end the overwhelming majority of players defines grind as "the mindless thing i dont like to do", while the "mindless thing i like to do" is called fun.

So not much has changed really, just those people that would quit older games at level 40 of 100 after 3 months now quit at level 100 of 100 after 3 months.

Flame on!

:)

I agree with this.  I say the developers share the burden because they knowingly locked desirable rewards behind incredibly long time sinks, but a huge majority is player perception.

HELL YEAH OP.

 So tired of the wimpy console gamers coming in and complainging about the GRIND. This is mother frikkin MMORPG'S!!! If you don't wanna grind then gtfo!!!

Your correct now that everyone and their brother plays MMO's they want to change the foundation of the game.  How about this dont play them if you dont like they way MMO's are designed.  It is the nature of the beast.

Go play a single player game, go play a multiplayer shooter or co-op game with your friends.  Go play anything other than MMO's if you are simply going to cry about how hard it is to earn the things you WANT.

I disliked old school MMOs specifically because of the grind. I could compare them to the old RPGs and see a stark contrast in content. Apart from Final Fantasy, I remember them having zero grind - and I love old RPGs. Grind is added so that you will play longer and pay more subs. It is not needed for RPGs or if you are not going to collect a monthly fee.

Cheap way to prolong the lifespan of the game. Nothing more.

http://youtu.be/tFGEABwj_uU

Never gonna grind again.

Originally posted by Ridelynn
 

I didn't mind grinding at all in EQ1 - I would sit in a party in a static camp for hours on end killing the same mob over and over. Hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of playtime probably spent like that.

However, in WoW - can't stand dailies. Not even a little bit.

The difference? The party. It's a totally different animal when your with other people, particularly your friends.

Same here and enjoyed it as well.  In the sake of fairness I have thought whether I would do that today in newer games.  I would certainly like the option to do that again.  The problem is that the environment just isn't there, the "overland" areas of games now just aren't difficult enough and are meant for soloing.  That's what made those static camps fun was the chance you may die if everyone was not doing thier job.  That and the social aspect that is.  People did talk to one another more since you may be at a camp for a while.

I hope future games at least carve out some pockets of hard, group required overland content next to solo content.  Having both options would be nice and not knowing the definitive "lines" would make travelling fun as well

Interesting..

Yeah I never really considered EQ1 a grind, or even knew much of the term while I played it (1999 - 2004).

I suspect the term grind came about because of games that were not group focused with all the fun that comes with grouping.  Solo player games rose, largely thanks to WoW, and the term grind became mainstream .. because when you are all by yourself, without friends, or social rewards ... repeating tasks over and over isn't very exciting.

Funny thing is, even in EQ1, when I was soloing low drop rate items for my class epic item, I knew the social rewards would be great, so I didn't even consider it grinding .. but then again, soloing high level stuff in EQ1 was a new challenge with every pull.  You never knew what to expect .. one wrong manuever, bad pull, or sloppy positioning/kiting, and you were dead.

Edit:

In retrospect, I think the unpredictable nature of EQ1 is what made the game not feel repetitous (grindy).  It wasn't just a Diablo'esque hack n'slack, swing the sword and get loot.  Soloing was an art requiring full attention, and grouping relyed on every person to be on their game.  One mishap, missed slow, missed heal, missed evac on a bad respawn would spell disaster.  Drama added the details to the ongoing soap opera story.  Ever watch a bad soap opera with poor storylines and without drama?  Gamers might know it as grinding .. Zzzz..

:-)

Grind exists because it gives us something to do and work for. Without grind, you would put a game down quickly and just be on your way. This becomes more evident in MMos where the investment of time is more desired for and as such that grind is needed to keep people playing.

Heck, think back to even those games you played as a child, lets say for example of an awesome game. How about Ghosts n' goblins. There was no grind there right?

WRONG. Its grind was focusing on making you play through the level until you ultimately could beat it. Heck, even back in Atari day that grind existed in the form of high school. 

Grind has and always will exist in games. It gives you something to work for and when done right can be rewarding. If your looking at it as grind, sadly, I don't think a video game in existance will ever please you so you might as well go back to real life...

...where you grind for money... 

Originally posted by cybertrucker

We are plaqued by more and more threads claiming this game is full Grind, or that game is a grind, or this game just introduced a Gear grind treadmill...

Seriously?  I mean SERIOUSLY??? These games from start to finish are all about you making a character, in a fantasy world, and ADVENTURING into those worlds. Adventuring in hopes of leveling up and finding gear to IMPROVE your characters. Yes we run some areas or dungeons mulitple times in hopes of getting that new shiney treasure. However if you find it so annoying that its just become a "GRIND" why do you bother to play?

Ohhhh to think back to the nights of adventure and FUN I had back in the days of Everquest 1. Pulling for my group in Lower GUK... Every night For MONTHS!!! You know what? I never thought of it as a "GRIND" I was having fun with friends i had made in a fantasy world, hoping maybe an item I might want like that fabled FBSS might drop. Or just hoping I wouldnt make that bad pull and wipe the group, or running to help another group in need that made that bad pull. Through it all though. I was there every night to have fun... Fun is what made the game NOT GRINDY

I guess after reading thread after thread after thread, of people whining and crying like little spoiled brats it makes me wonder why half the people on these forums or many others even play these games. Does no one play the games for fun these days? They seem to self absorbed with what they have to do to get their next piece of gear and how long it takes instead of just enjoying what they are doing along the way.

Rant off.

Agreed with all of it but that little line hits the nail on the head. 

Originally posted by Purutzil

Grind exists because it gives us something to do and work for. Without grind, you would put a game down quickly and just be on your way. This becomes more evident in MMos where the investment of time is more desired for and as such that grind is needed to keep people playing.

 

Heck, think back to even those games you played as a child, lets say for example of an awesome game. How about Ghosts n' goblins. There was no grind there right?

WRONG. Its grind was focusing on making you play through the level until you ultimately could beat it. Heck, even back in Atari day that grind existed in the form of high school. 

Grind has and always will exist in games. It gives you something to work for and when done right can be rewarding. If your looking at it as grind, sadly, I don't think a video game in existance will ever please you so you might as well go back to real life...

 

...where you grind for money... 

I'll agree with you to a level on your console game analogy.  There was repetition involved.  But that's about it.  Each new instance of a game was different .. timings were different.  Ghosts 'n Goblins in a bit complex, lets look at Donkey Kong, I'll come back to Ghosts 'n Goblins.

Some people are just good at DK.. kudos to them.  The first level is based on a seried of downward ramps and ladders (to upper ramps), with barrels rolling down, randomly taking various paths to the bottom.  Every game you will ever play on Donkey Kong is different.  The possibilities of the barrel motions are binary, but how you move is what makes the game different.  You might be able to catch a ladder one game, and the next you were a few pixels behind.

In grindy MMORPG's, the level of thought to anticipate possible outcomes is not required.  You sit around and "grind" stuff .. in todays MMORPG's, nothing can kill you.  You are simply trading your time for a roll of the dice.  You slay easy mobs.  This to me is grindy.

Yes, Challenge is a big factor.

So, back to Ghosts 'n Goblins, it's way more complicated than Donkey Kong, in terms of mechanics and stuff happening.  But I don't consider it a grind.  It's a game based on learning, based on hand-eye coordination.  Based on knowing how to defeat enemies and bosses based on past experience.  Once you know what to expect, you get new challenges with the next level, something MMORPG grinding does not provide.

You might consider such an activity in console games as annoying, but that doesn't mean it's grindy.  Once you know how to beat a level, it becomes easier every time you play.

Oh BTW ..

in blue

What were you trying to say? .. about Atari?