Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by demarc01
Aye I have a full understanding of the systems in place now. Pretty much you could say its *the same as WoW* in that you can always easily get the gear required for entry level into the current raid content. (A tier behind if you like)

 

Hopefully one day Dev's will *get it* and understand that not everyone likes to raid.

I'll try to be clear here, as a mostly non-raider these days, i dont care if raiders have gear thats better for raiding. Thats cool and has no effect on me. What does effect me is that raid gear is, due to its base nature of just being a pure statistical upgrade, just better for *everything*. If I run a dungeon in my dungeon set and there is a raider there in a raid set, they will have an advantage over me. To me, a raid set should help youi in raids, not *everything*. Like WoW's pvp sets, they come with a Resilience stat thats only good for PvP. The same kind of stat should be on raid gear, a resist specific to raiding. Let raiders have thier shiney gear with raid stats on it so they can progress in the raid tiers, but when they enter *my world* of dungeon crawling, their gear should be comparable to mine. (Thats not to say they cant go get a dungon set of thier own it thats thier desire)

Like I say, I dont care about the raid sets, make them look cool and themed to the raid, I just feel its lazy design to just pump based stats all the time as upgrades. Hell if raid sets were not just pure statistical upgrades all the time it would help with the power-creep in older content too, dungeons would remain a challenge for longer, over-land mobs would be trivialized much slower etc etc.

Just my opinion of course, I'm sure others will see it different.

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I disagree with most of what you said here heh. If you equip the best raid gear and go into pvp, you will get stomped. If you equip the best pvp gear and go into raids, you wont be able to hit anything. As far as dungeons, whats the advantage there? You are a team with a common goal. If someone does 5% more damage than you, how does that ruin your experience? If you care about stats and damage meters, then maybe that'll bug you. Does it bug you enough to raid and get the same gear? nope.

I used resilience as an example stat, I'm aware that Rift has similar stats for PvP, I was rank 5 before I quit (rank 6 was the cap back then)

Its an effort vs reward thing.

If i PvP i get PvP gear that helps me PvP but is really not so good in dungeons / raids. Fine.

If I run dungons I get gear thats good for dungeons but not good for PvP and not so good for raiding. Fine.

If I raid I get gear thats good for dungons AND raiding but not so good for PvP.

See the difference there?

Its a perception thing. Some people just split the game into PvP / PvE so to them raids are the same as dungeons, just more people. For me raiding is not the same as dungeons. Sure its a PvE activity, I'd just like to see an equal reward system for progressing in my chosen activity that shows I am a true *dungeonmaster*.

In an Ideal game (for me) each aspect of end-game could be progressed in its own way. Planar gear should give me an advantage when I am doing rifts. It should be BETTER than raid / dungeon or PvP gear for that activity. Raid gear should be the BEST gear for raiding. Dungeon gear should be the BEST for running dungeons etc. Each aspect of the game should reward thoses who chose to participate in it. Would this mean more gear grinds? Sure it would. People who wanted to run rifts and dungeons and raid and PvP would be looking at building 4 sets or gear. Do I personally see this as a bad thing? Nope. Others would disagree and call it way to grindey and I accept that, I can see that point of view, I just disagree with it.

In my ideal game, there would be one generic base set that was *entery* level for all activitys, and past that all gear would specalize in some aspect or another. A raider in raid gear entering a dungon would actually be at a disadvantage to a dungeon runner in dungeon gear.

ATM this holds true in the PvP vs PvE gear sets, I'd just like to see the scope expanded so that people can feel rewarded for specific activitys rather then general activites. (Dungon / raid / PvP / Rifts rather then PvP/PvE)

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Xhieron

I think it's a little disingenuous to feign offense at this question or suggest anyone in the OP's position is somehow ignorant.  I've raided in EQ, and I didn't have any trouble understanding the question, nor did I feel compelled to deride the questioner for deigning to ask.

 

Raid or die means EQ/WOW gear progression.  It's not whether there's nothing to do, or even whether you can get better gear than what you're wearing by doing other things.  Of course you can; any developer worth it's salt knows better than to lock all content past a certain point behind a numbers gate.  What's really at stake here is whether non-raiders are second rate when compared to raiders, and I think the answer to that question is a resounding yes for every game built on the traditional theme park paradigm, up to and including Rift.  Hell, as of this weekend even GW2 has a similar model; the only principle difference is that the content is capped at 5 people.

 

So to rephrase the question for the uninitiated, "Is it possible to complete non-raid content competitively when compared to raid-geared players without raiding?".  Judging from the answers so far, No.  No it's not.

 

That doesn't mean the game is bad, it doesn't mean you don't have meaningful access to all content, and it doesn't even mean that non-raid rewards aren't sufficient for everything in the game except raiding, which I'll generally concede is true for almost every game in the paradigm (and that's a point ArenaNet has championed valiantly, much to the disgust of its original fanbase).  The principle grievance is that while raid gear is only necessary for raiding, it's nonetheless better than non-raid gear for non-raiding.  That represents a serious consideration for those of us evaluating games, and frankly I find it dishonest for fans of these games, however sincere, to discount this question as unimportant.

 

As to this particular contender, I haven't played SL, so I'd be delighted to hear from someone who has that non-raiders can be competitive with raiders in Rift these days (and by competitive, I mean same completion time for content, which for practical purposes in a theme park means same stats).  A couple of later responses seem to indicte that, but lets be clear.  The players who have generously provided actual insight so far, however, have also generally indicated that this flatly isn't so, and it would be nice if, for instance, someone could outline a stat comparison for highest-level raid and non-raid gear.  Is that a deal breaker for a potential new player?  Maybe and maybe not.  But if you set out to champion a game's model, you should at least endeavor to represent the model honestly.

 

/em steps off the soapbox and carries it away.

^ He gets it.

Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Xhieron
<Snip to save space>

^ He gets it.

Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

I actually did look at Zam and it seems it's not so current since I could'ent find any gear past level 50. With the new 60 cap things could have changed.

Yes the wikis tell me there are gear tiers, Dungeon - T1-T2-T3.

However as a poster mentioned there is a daily (7x) quest to get actual Tier tokens from dungeons now (that was'ent available when I played since the raids were still T1 - GSB and RoS)

Thanks for your post though, always nice to be told something you already know.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Xhieron

/snip

^ He gets it.

Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

So adding IAs, Expert Dungeons, Master Dungeons, new types of Rifts, new world events, new zone events, new warfronts, upcoming new conquest maps, new tiers of planar gear, new tiers of PvP gear, new Chronicles.. and more, is catering to raiders?

Raiders are getting the smallest amount of content in the game. So far they have 1 new set of upgradable gear and a couple raids. Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards.. that's the way of all things. But in terms of how much they have to actually do, content, they have far less than any other area.

If this game catered to raiders the new expansion would be more than 50% raid content.. and it isn't. It's probably not even 5%.

Post redacted

Originally posted by demarc01

Aye I have a full understanding of the systems in place now. Pretty much you could say its *the same as WoW* in that you can always easily get the gear required for entry level into the current raid content. (A tier behind if you like)

It's not the same as WoW. If they add a new tier of raid in an update they add new gear outside of raiding, or ways to get the raid gear outside of raiding, that is suitable to start raiding the 'top' tier of raiding without ever having to raid. Meaning you can skip the previous raids and start on the latest one. Not the latest raids in the latest expansion, the latest individual raid; the last one the added. You can start 'past' entry level. The gear for that is only slightly behind the best gear in the game.

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by demarc01

Aye I have a full understanding of the systems in place now. Pretty much you could say its *the same as WoW* in that you can always easily get the gear required for entry level into the current raid content. (A tier behind if you like)

It's not the same as WoW. If they add a new tier of raid in an update they add new gear outside of raiding, or ways to get the raid gear outside of raiding, that is suitable to start raiding the 'top' tier of raiding without ever having to raid. Meaning you can skip the previous raids and start on the latest one. Not the latest raids in the latest expansion, the latest individual raid; the last one the added. You can start 'past' entry level. The gear for that is only slightly behind the best gear in the game.

Urm yes, so the same as WoW. Current tier of raiding is the raid (not the heroic version) Remember they have Valor points and all that crap so when they add a new raid (with a new tier of gear - not an expansion) they also drop the old raids gear to Valor point status. So its exactly the same as wow.

Maby my wording is not clear to you.

If the current raid is T2,  you can get T1 gear from other sources (Dungeons). If they add a new tier - T3 raids, you can now get the T2 gear (Equ to previous raid) from dungeons. So your always a Tier behind.

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Xhieron

/snip

^ He gets it.

Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

So adding IAs, Expert Dungeons, Master Dungeons, new types of Rifts, new world events, new zone events, new warfronts, upcoming new conquest maps, new tiers of planar gear, new tiers of PvP gear, new Chronicles.. and more, is catering to raiders?

Raiders are getting the smallest amount of content in the game. So far they have 1 new set of upgradable gear and a couple raids. Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards.. that's the way of all things. But in terms of how much they have to actually do, content, they have far less than any other area.

If this game catered to raiders the new expansion would be more than 50% raid content.. and it isn't. It's probably not even 5%.

Highlighted part is personal opinion. I never found raiding to be *hard* in rift. The only *hard* part is finding 19-non muppets to raid with IMO. Attendance, attrition of players, filtering mouth-breathers are the *hard* parts of raiding, the rest I never found to be *hard*.

That aside though, even you claim that 5% of the game is where to top rewards come from. You dont see that as a problem? I do, much more of the "end-game" should be equally as rewarding IMO.

I get some people like raiding, hell I used to like raiding, I raided in every game from EQ onwards. I lead 300+ people relic raids and ML raids in DAoC. I was a raid leader from Vanilla WoW through to Wrath. I did Greenscale and River of Souls.I've raided, I'm just looking for a game these days where I dont have to raid to feel rewarded. Now some people will say you dont have to raid to feel rewarded, and to a degree thats true, until you after 100 dungeon runs end up in a group with a raider who's run a dungeon or two but has far better gear for dungeon running (the aspect of the game you put most effort into) just because he ran some raids. Personal opinion of course.

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by demarc01

Aye I have a full understanding of the systems in place now. Pretty much you could say its *the same as WoW* in that you can always easily get the gear required for entry level into the current raid content. (A tier behind if you like)

It's not the same as WoW. If they add a new tier of raid in an update they add new gear outside of raiding, or ways to get the raid gear outside of raiding, that is suitable to start raiding the 'top' tier of raiding without ever having to raid. Meaning you can skip the previous raids and start on the latest one. Not the latest raids in the latest expansion, the latest individual raid; the last one the added. You can start 'past' entry level. The gear for that is only slightly behind the best gear in the game.

Urm yes, so the same as WoW. Current tier of raiding is the raid (not the heroic version) Remember they have Valor points and all that crap so when they add a new raid (with a new tier of gear - not an expansion) they also drop the old raids gear to Valor point status. So its exactly the same as wow.

Maby my wording is not clear to you.

If the current raid is T2,  you can get T1 gear from other sources (Dungeons). If they add a new tier - T3 raids, you can now get the T2 gear (Equ to previous raid) from dungeons. So your always a Tier behind.

Well, I wasn't awre WoW did that now. They didn't back in Vanilla, unless I just missed it.

Anyway, the point is that if you are bothered a small group can have 1 tier above you if you don't raid then you you are making mountains out of mole hills. The difference between the stats on say, tier 1 and tier 2 raid gear, is not game changing. It's makes a difference, but not enough of a difference to justify not playing a game because of it, imo.

You will be able to tackle all content outside of raiding, and there is a lot of it, without that top tier. So what if someone in a dungeon has the top tier and you don't.. makes it easier for you to do the dungeon with their help. Those raiders benefit you as well. The only place it would be bad would be PvP, but the PvP stats take care of that (and are only minor bonuses in Rift anyway, but it bridges the gap). I was doing extremely well in PvP at level 50 when I started without any PvP gear.

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Xhieron

/snip

^ He gets it.

Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

So adding IAs, Expert Dungeons, Master Dungeons, new types of Rifts, new world events, new zone events, new warfronts, upcoming new conquest maps, new tiers of planar gear, new tiers of PvP gear, new Chronicles.. and more, is catering to raiders?

Raiders are getting the smallest amount of content in the game. So far they have 1 new set of upgradable gear and a couple raids. Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards.. that's the way of all things. But in terms of how much they have to actually do, content, they have far less than any other area.

If this game catered to raiders the new expansion would be more than 50% raid content.. and it isn't. It's probably not even 5%.

Highlighted part is personal opinion. I never found raiding to be *hard* in rift. The only *hard* part is finding 19-non muppets to raid with IMO. Attendance, attrition of players, filtering mouth-breathers are the *hard* parts of raiding, the rest I never found to be *hard*.

That aside though, even you claim that 5% of the game is where to top rewards come from. You dont see that as a problem? I do, much more of the "end-game" should be equally as rewarding IMO.

I get some people like raiding, hell I used to like raiding, I raided in every game from EQ onwards. I lead 300+ people relic raids and ML raids in DAoC. I was a raid leader from Vanilla WoW through to Wrath. I did Greenscale and River of Souls.I've raided, I'm just looking for a game these days where I dont have to raid to feel rewarded. Now some people will say you dont have to raid to feel rewarded, and to a degree thats true, until you after 100 dungeon runs end up in a group with a raider who's run a dungeon or two but has far better gear for dungeon running (the aspect of the game you put most effort into) just because he ran some raids. Personal opinion of course.

I said it was the hardest in Rift, not that it is hard in comparision to other games. Hardest in this way sorta means takes the most time and organisation.

You're asking for something you can't find in games. The hardest thing in a game gives the best rewards.. cosmetic or otherwise. Even GW2 suffers from this because the only way to feel rewarded is to go for the cosmetics. All the early MMOs were the same, if you choose to miss out the hardest part of that game you won't be rewarded as much as someone who does. There isn't a solution to your problem other than to play single player or co-op games... or just get over it. If missing 5% of an MMO bugs you for some reason then.. you have to do that 5% or just stop letting it bug you.

If raids were taken out then master dungeons would be the hardest.. then you could complain about them in exactly the same way. If master dungeons were removed then you could complain about expert dungeon runners being in the best gear.. where do we draw the line? No progression at all?

And like I said in the previous post, when you are in a dungeon with someone in better gear than you.. that helps your goals as well, they are doing the dungeon with you not against you. Makes is easier for everyone in the group.

Sounds like envy is your problem though. You don't like to see someone with something better than you.

Vannor, I do understand where your coming from, and i'll hazzard a guess that your a raider.

I mentioned that I dont view raids as being hard in of themselves, for me the only hard part of raiding is the other 19 people. That in of itself is a design choice. Game developers could make small group content to be equally as difficult as raid content in its own way, in fact I've found this to be true in some cases, Dungeon content is harder on the individual than raid content simply because the fewer people the more important your direct impact is on the outcome. Thats apples and oranges though.

If you read my earlier post I mentioned that I feel (again personal opinion) that different aspects of the game should have thier own reward tiers. Dungeons should progress in difficulty in the same way raids do, tiers if you like. The same should be true of PvP and Rifts. You should, again in my opinion, get planar gear from rifts that allow  you to progress to expert rifts, then master rifts. That gear should have little to no impact on running dungeons, normal > expert > master or raids Tier 1 > Tier 2 > Tier 3.

Someone who runs dungeons to the master level should be geared to do it, someone who runs raids should not be able to jump into master dungeons based on thier raid gear and just skip the regualr and expert dungeons.

Designers agree with me to a degree, hence the PvP vs PvE gear sets. I personally think they need to take it further and break down *end game* aspects to each give rewards and progression without impacting ther other spheres.

To me that would open up the end-game and give players more choices with each choice being equally rewarding for the player. If you wanted to run dungeons and raid, you'd do both and get both gear sets. That way dungeon runners or rift runners (ie people who dont wish to raid) would not feel Marginalized by the end game direction.

Raiding would still be there, there would still be progression through raiding, you'd just add additional progression routes for other player types.

Personally I dont view this as a bad thing, I can however see why other people would object and call it a needless grind, having to get dungeon sets / raid sets / rift sets. Personally more options for progression is a good thing to me, each to his own though.

Originally posted by demarc01

Vannor, I do understand where your coming from, and i'll hazzard a guess that your a raider.

I mentioned that I dont view raids as being hard in of themselves, for me the only hard part of raiding is the other 19 people. That in of itself is a design choice. Game developers could make small group content to be equally as difficult as raid content in its own way, in fact I've found this to be true in some cases, Dungeon content is harder on the individual than raid content simply because the fewer people the more important your direct impact is on the outcome. Thats apples and oranges though.

If you read my earlier post I mentioned that I feel (again personal opinion) that different aspects of the game should have thier own reward tiers. Dungeons should progress in difficulty in the same way raids do, tiers if you like. The same should be true of PvP and Rifts. You should, again in my opinion, get planar gear from rifts that allow  you to progress to expert rifts, then master rifts. That gear should have little to no impact on running dungeons, normal > expert > master or raids Tier 1 > Tier 2 > Tier 3.

Someone who runs dungeons to the master level should be geared to do it, someone who runs raids should not be able to jump into master dungeons based on thier raid gear and just skip the regualr and expert dungeons.

Designers agree with me to a degree, hence the PvP vs PvE gear sets. I personally think they need to take it further and break down *end game* aspects to each give rewards and progression without impacting ther other spheres.

To me that would open up the end-game and give players more choices with each choice being equally rewarding for the player. If you wanted to run dungeons and raid, you'd do both and get both gear sets. That way dungeon runners or rift runners (ie people who dont wish to raid) would not feel Marginalized by the end game direction.

Raiding would still be there, there would still be progression through raiding, you'd just add additional progression routes for other player types.

Personally I dont view this as a bad thing, I can however see why other people would object and call it a needless grind, having to get dungeon sets / raid sets / rift sets. Personally more options for progression is a good thing to me, each to his own though.

lol nah, I'm not a raider at all. The closest thing I've ever done to raiding is the ones in LOTRO.. and I didn't do many. I actually hate raiding because it eats away at your time, but I'm really enjoying Rift. Which is why I'm arguing that it isn't raid centric. i'm not a raider and I feel perfectly happy. I don't care about those people in the top tier raid gear.. I don't envy them. I know they took the time to get it and that I could have it as well but I choose not to, doesn't bother me. I can still beat them in a duel though.

Now, if you are bothered about having the best appearance armor.. well, Rift offers tons of that. Plus, the old raid sets look much better than the new ones and are really easy to get now.

If running dungeons offered the same rewards.. then they would have to take the same amount of time and be the same difficulty wouldn't they? You can't offer the same rewards for something that is easier.. no one would bother raiding. More options to get the top gear would be great but it would have to require the same investment to get otherwise it's unfair to the raiders. But that level of investment is the reason you, we, don't want to raid in the first place.

O_o

So you can transmute looks in Rift now?

Well now thats sounds interesting .... esp since as you say we can run level 50 dungeons to get the gears pretty easy.

My old account is still kicking around somewhere and has a cleric and Mage on it. Mage has dungeon gear and the Cleric has GSB healing gear, Expert tanking gear and DPS PvP gears heh.

I did read that they nerf'd Expert dungeons though? (So sad) do they revert that? Or are the new *master* mode dungeons the same as the old Expert ones used to be? Was'ent happy when they nerf'd the difficulty of the dungeons tbh :/

Originally posted by demarc01

O_o

So you can transmute looks in Rift now?

Well now thats sounds interesting .... esp since as you say we can run level 50 dungeons to get the gears pretty easy.

My old account is still kicking around somewhere and has a cleric and Mage on it. Mage has dungeon gear and the Cleric has GSB healing gear, Expert tanking gear and DPS PvP gears heh.

I did read that they nerf'd Expert dungeons though? (So sad) do they revert that? Or are the new *master* mode dungeons the same as the old Expert ones used to be? Was'ent happy when they nerf'd the difficulty of the dungeons tbh :/

You can't transmute them. But there are wardrobe slots so you can have multiple appearances equipped on your character at any time. I think it's 6.

I'm not sure if they nerfed expert dungeons.. but the level 50 expert dungeon are bound to be easy, maybe even soloable, with a level 60 character. The new level 60 expert and master dungeons are a different matter altogether though.

Ya they nerf'd expert dungeons before Hammerknell came out. One of the main reasons I stopped playing back then. Expert dungeons went from tough runs that my friends and I really enjoyed to a walk in the park. Shame really Since I was nearly done with the dungon achievements back then (and they were TOUGH!!)

I did hear about the new master level of dungeons awhile back and the kinda caught my attention, since I figured it was a new name on an old difficulty, a difficulty that I actually really enjoyed back then.

I take it then the the appearance tabs work in the same was as LotRO does? I remember them with a fondness ... GD turbine and thier POS Isenguard expansion :/

I may have to check Rift out again then, sounds like they have added some interesting additions. Now if I can bug the Dev's to add specific Dungeon running progression ... heh :p

Originally posted by demarc01

Ya they nerf'd expert dungeons before Hammerknell came out. One of the main reasons I stopped playing back then. Expert dungeons went from tough runs that my friends and I really enjoyed to a walk in the park. Shame really Since I was nearly done with the dungon achievements back then (and they were TOUGH!!)

I did hear about the new master level of dungeons awhile back and the kinda caught my attention, since I figured it was a new name on an old difficulty, a difficulty that I actually really enjoyed back then.

I take it then the the appearance tabs work in the same was as LotRO does? I remember them with a fondness ... GD turbine and thier POS Isenguard expansion :/

I may have to check Rift out again then, sounds like they have added some interesting additions. Now if I can bug the Dev's to add specific Dungeon running progression ... heh :p

Wardrobe is pretty much like in LOTRO yeh.. but only when they first added it to LOTRO, not the way it is now. You can't save appearances in a menu and delete the item, you have to keep the item yourself either in the wardrobe slot or in the bank or summat.

All callings (mage, warrior, etc) can now put any type of armor in their wardrobe. So you can have a mage that looks like they have plate armor on. You might think everyone would do that, have a mage in plate, but they don't. Tons of varied appearances out there.

I can't tell you loads about the dungeons in the expansion other than the first one in normal mode; exodus of the storm queen (level 50-54). In normal mode, it is definately harder than the level 50 expert dungeons. The mechanics can be tricky as well. Blades flying around the room that you have to keep your eye on so you don't get one shotted.. stuff like that. I think 3 of the pugs I was in failed before we managed to get a group capable of doing it. Could have just been extremely bad pugs though.

I read on the official forums somewhere.. not sure if it's true.. that they will be updating the old expert dungeons to level 60 eventually.

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Originally posted by demarc01

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by demarc01 Aye I have a full understanding of the systems in place now. Pretty much you could say its *the same as WoW* in that you can always easily get the gear required for entry level into the current raid content. (A tier behind if you like)   Hopefully one day Dev's will *get it* and understand that not everyone likes to raid. I'll try to be clear here, as a mostly non-raider these days, i dont care if raiders have gear thats better for raiding. Thats cool and has no effect on me. What does effect me is that raid gear is, due to its base nature of just being a pure statistical upgrade, just better for *everything*. If I run a dungeon in my dungeon set and there is a raider there in a raid set, they will have an advantage over me. To me, a raid set should help youi in raids, not *everything*. Like WoW's pvp sets, they come with a Resilience stat thats only good for PvP. The same kind of stat should be on raid gear, a resist specific to raiding. Let raiders have thier shiney gear with raid stats on it so they can progress in the raid tiers, but when they enter *my world* of dungeon crawling, their gear should be comparable to mine. (Thats not to say they cant go get a dungon set of thier own it thats thier desire) Like I say, I dont care about the raid sets, make them look cool and themed to the raid, I just feel its lazy design to just pump based stats all the time as upgrades. Hell if raid sets were not just pure statistical upgrades all the time it would help with the power-creep in older content too, dungeons would remain a challenge for longer, over-land mobs would be trivialized much slower etc etc. Just my opinion of course, I'm sure others will see it different.

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  I disagree with most of what you said here heh. If you equip the best raid gear and go into pvp, you will get stomped. If you equip the best pvp gear and go into raids, you wont be able to hit anything. As far as dungeons, whats the advantage there? You are a team with a common goal. If someone does 5% more damage than you, how does that ruin your experience? If you care about stats and damage meters, then maybe that'll bug you. Does it bug you enough to raid and get the same gear? nope.

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I used resilience as an example stat, I'm aware that Rift has similar stats for PvP, I was rank 5 before I quit (rank 6 was the cap back then)

Its an effort vs reward thing.

If i PvP i get PvP gear that helps me PvP but is really not so good in dungeons / raids. Fine.

If I run dungons I get gear thats good for dungeons but not good for PvP and not so good for raiding. Fine.

If I raid I get gear thats good for dungons AND raiding but not so good for PvP.

See the difference there?

 

Its a perception thing. Some people just split the game into PvP / PvE so to them raids are the same as dungeons, just more people. For me raiding is not the same as dungeons. Sure its a PvE activity, I'd just like to see an equal reward system for progressing in my chosen activity that shows I am a true *dungeonmaster*.

In an Ideal game (for me) each aspect of end-game could be progressed in its own way. Planar gear should give me an advantage when I am doing rifts. It should be BETTER than raid / dungeon or PvP gear for that activity. Raid gear should be the BEST gear for raiding. Dungeon gear should be the BEST for running dungeons etc. Each aspect of the game should reward thoses who chose to participate in it. Would this mean more gear grinds? Sure it would. People who wanted to run rifts and dungeons and raid and PvP would be looking at building 4 sets or gear. Do I personally see this as a bad thing? Nope. Others would disagree and call it way to grindey and I accept that, I can see that point of view, I just disagree with it.

In my ideal game, there would be one generic base set that was *entery* level for all activitys, and past that all gear would specalize in some aspect or another. A raider in raid gear entering a dungon would actually be at a disadvantage to a dungeon runner in dungeon gear.

ATM this holds true in the PvP vs PvE gear sets, I'd just like to see the scope expanded so that people can feel rewarded for specific activitys rather then general activites. (Dungon / raid / PvP / Rifts rather then PvP/PvE)

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There is a full set of upgradeable planar gear and epic crafted gear for every slot that takes a crap load more time than raids. It may be slightly under the raid stats but I wore almost every slot in crafted gear and I got a few props from people inspecting my character. Thre are a lot of activities that reward personal accomplishments that others can recognize. Raid gear is the only one that is absolute without a doubt the best you can possibly get.

For me, in this game, its not a problem. It doesnt help in pvp and it can only help in the other pve content since we are all on the same side now. But yeah I can see how it may not give that prestige some players look for and dont want to raid. Is it enough to consider Rift "raid or die"? Hardly. There's just too much other valid content to be so focused on one aspect to let it affect me. I think others feel the same. A lot of people are just doing their own thing now getting the best they can while doing the stuff they like most. TBH, I think the gear showcase in Rift is a lot more muted than say WoW where best in slot is what all roads lead to. Dimensions and Hunt Rifts open up a couple much needed alternatives to dungeons, raids, and pvp. Now the population is scattered across many game systems taking some of the emphasis away from best in slot raiding gear.

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by demarc01

Originally posted by Xhieron

/snip

^ He gets it.

Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

Yes, non-raiders are second class.  It wouldn't have taken much research on your part to figure that out.  There are whole wikis devoted to gear tiers and what it takes to get them.  You can compare stats at Zam for example.

So adding IAs, Expert Dungeons, Master Dungeons, new types of Rifts, new world events, new zone events, new warfronts, upcoming new conquest maps, new tiers of planar gear, new tiers of PvP gear, new Chronicles.. and more, is catering to raiders?

Raiders are getting the smallest amount of content in the game. So far they have 1 new set of upgradable gear and a couple raids. Raiding is the hardest content so it deserves the best rewards.. that's the way of all things. But in terms of how much they have to actually do, content, they have far less than any other area.

If this game catered to raiders the new expansion would be more than 50% raid content.. and it isn't. It's probably not even 5%.

I never said catering to anyone.  Don't put words in my mouth or play silly games.

If any of your gear is not top tier raid gear it is second best.  That's not an opinion and it was a direct answer to his question.

The highlighted orange part *is* your opinion.  My answer to him didn't go there, but I don't agree with you at all.  For one, raiding isn't really that hard other than the cat herding.  It's mostly disco dancing (jump, move, and dance around based on event conditions) and simon says (don't stand in the visual effect, only stay in the blue circle, don't let the lasers touch you, etc) with dps, hps, and mitigation checks.  Once you learn the pattern or system then you're golden.  They're only harder because there are more people that can cause failure.   Individual skill between master modes and raids really isn't any different.  Why should I lose out on a reward or drop because someone else made a  mistake.  Add in the idiotic politics and the few people who control what the rest of us get, and in no way do I think raiding deserves more or better.

It's a poor reward system in my opinion.  Multiiple golden paths to the same quality rewards is a much better design.  Not only that but participating in any of them should all add to that progression.  But like I said, he just wanted to know if everything but raid gear was second best and I answered him.  That's all.