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Rift

Rift 

General Discussion  » Is rift endgame raid or die?

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84 posts found
  Xhieron

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 130

Don't trust these people. They're crooks.

11/17/12 10:24:31 AM#21

I think it's a little disingenuous to feign offense at this question or suggest anyone in the OP's position is somehow ignorant.  I've raided in EQ, and I didn't have any trouble understanding the question, nor did I feel compelled to deride the questioner for deigning to ask.

 

Raid or die means EQ/WOW gear progression.  It's not whether there's nothing to do, or even whether you can get better gear than what you're wearing by doing other things.  Of course you can; any developer worth it's salt knows better than to lock all content past a certain point behind a numbers gate.  What's really at stake here is whether non-raiders are second rate when compared to raiders, and I think the answer to that question is a resounding yes for every game built on the traditional theme park paradigm, up to and including Rift.  Hell, as of this weekend even GW2 has a similar model; the only principle difference is that the content is capped at 5 people.

 

So to rephrase the question for the uninitiated, "Is it possible to complete non-raid content competitively when compared to raid-geared players without raiding?".  Judging from the answers so far, No.  No it's not.

 

That doesn't mean the game is bad, it doesn't mean you don't have meaningful access to all content, and it doesn't even mean that non-raid rewards aren't sufficient for everything in the game except raiding, which I'll generally concede is true for almost every game in the paradigm (and that's a point ArenaNet has championed valiantly, much to the disgust of its original fanbase).  The principle grievance is that while raid gear is only necessary for raiding, it's nonetheless better than non-raid gear for non-raiding.  That represents a serious consideration for those of us evaluating games, and frankly I find it dishonest for fans of these games, however sincere, to discount this question as unimportant.

 

As to this particular contender, I haven't played SL, so I'd be delighted to hear from someone who has that non-raiders can be competitive with raiders in Rift these days (and by competitive, I mean same completion time for content, which for practical purposes in a theme park means same stats).  A couple of later responses seem to indicte that, but lets be clear.  The players who have generously provided actual insight so far, however, have also generally indicated that this flatly isn't so, and it would be nice if, for instance, someone could outline a stat comparison for highest-level raid and non-raid gear.  Is that a deal breaker for a potential new player?  Maybe and maybe not.  But if you set out to champion a game's model, you should at least endeavor to represent the model honestly.

 

/em steps off the soapbox and carries it away.

Peace and safety.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/17/12 10:55:29 AM#22
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Whitebeards
So much mis information. 

Its not as mch misinformation as player stupidity.  I have yet to see an MMORPG thats raid or die.  Even EQ was never raid or die.  WoW sure as hell isnt and Rift isnt either.

 

wow is raid or die, why else would you play it once youve leveled?

PVP - lol, wow pvp sucks, blizzard are obsssed with putting everything on a timer, theres no playing to a mmos strengths with an eve or daoc like pvp model, no its pvp is taken from fps with crappy little ctf and what have you in a ghettoed off box.  Whats more if you really like that sort of sectioned off token pvp, you can play it for free in countless moba games.

daily quests - what?  really? people do these for months at a time?

crafting, nope why craft when you can get much better stuff from grinding dungeons or the tuppoerware pvp.

 

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/17/12 10:59:23 AM#23
Originally posted by Xhieron

Raid or die means EQ/WOW gear progression.  It's not whether there's nothing to do, or even whether you can get better gear than what you're wearing by doing other things.  Of course you can; any developer worth it's salt knows better than to lock all content past a certain point behind a numbers gate.  What's really at stake here is whether non-raiders are second rate when compared to raiders, and I think the answer to that question is a resounding yes for every game built on the traditional theme park paradigm, up to and including Rift.  Hell, as of this weekend even GW2 has a similar model; the only principle difference is that the content is capped at 5 people.

 

well not every themepark
coh and gw1 avoided heavy vertical progression

daoc had strong crafting and pvp gave better rewards than pve

warhammer didnt have raids and best gear came from pvp

planetside doesnt even have pve.

  emota

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 335

11/17/12 10:59:57 AM#24
Originally posted by azzamasin
Yes it is a WoW clone through and through.  Albeit with better content, better class systems but way worse off character animations.  The aniamtions were my biggest hurdle and I could never get over it.

 

lol says the GW2 fanboi, now that's a game with terrible engame. Argh yes, there is no endgame, what a jokeof a proclamation that was by Anet.
  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1917

11/17/12 11:06:36 AM#25
There is other stuff to do, but progression is still tied up with raiding.  You will not get raid drops from PvP or regular dungeons or as random world drops, so yeah, best gear = raiding = typical miserable MMO endgame.

  InFlamestwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/11
Posts: 677

11/17/12 11:08:22 AM#26
You can run expert dungeons for weekly T1, T2 and T3 raid rewards.

  InFlamestwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/11
Posts: 677

11/17/12 11:09:19 AM#27
Originally posted by emota
Originally posted by azzamasin
Yes it is a WoW clone through and through.  Albeit with better content, better class systems but way worse off character animations.  The aniamtions were my biggest hurdle and I could never get over it.

 

lol says the GW2 fanboi, now that's a game with terrible engame. Argh yes, there is no endgame, what a jokeof a proclamation that was by Anet.

GW2 got a new endgame dungeon yesterday, might want to check it out.

  Xhieron

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 130

Don't trust these people. They're crooks.

11/17/12 11:23:17 AM#28
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by Xhieron

Raid or die means EQ/WOW gear progression.  It's not whether there's nothing to do, or even whether you can get better gear than what you're wearing by doing other things.  Of course you can; any developer worth it's salt knows better than to lock all content past a certain point behind a numbers gate.  What's really at stake here is whether non-raiders are second rate when compared to raiders, and I think the answer to that question is a resounding yes for every game built on the traditional theme park paradigm, up to and including Rift.  Hell, as of this weekend even GW2 has a similar model; the only principle difference is that the content is capped at 5 people.

 

well not every themepark
coh and gw1 avoided heavy vertical progression

daoc had strong crafting and pvp gave better rewards than pve

warhammer didnt have raids and best gear came from pvp

planetside doesnt even have pve.

In COH Hamis were the absolute best enhancements available for most of the game's early life.  For a while after IOs came out they were eclipsed, but then Incarnate content made obtaining the high-end sets the product of running upper-eschelon content.  Like GW1 & 2, during the period in the game's life when raiding wasn't the avenue to the best rewards in the game, it was because as a practical matter, the game didn't have raiding.

That said, I agree that the anti-treadmill principles behind COX and GW1 are some of the finest genius game design to come out of the industry in the last ten years.  RIP COX.

Both Mythic games, DAOC and WAR, had RVR as the stand-in for raid content, and in both games, as a rule, many of the same patterns that makes raiding frustrating emerged in the RVR content.  To wit, apparently somewhere along the line someone convinced MMO developers that getting a bunch of people together is a skill worth in itself of reward, notwithstanding the fact that that flies in the face of roleplaying convention (we all remember when our AD&D DM told us that we wouldn't be able to fight the dragon until we got five other guys to come play with us on Saturday, right? ... Right?).  Planetside had the same issue--the content wasn't raiding because it was PVP, but it had many of the same features in the form of the numbers game, though to be fair, PS did a good job of spreading the game out so that this didn't dominate play, and DAOC had a system in place--a flawed system, arguably, but at least something--to prevent the zerg from becoming the only meaningful way to engage other players in rewarding RVR.  God bless Mythic for that one, and it's a shame games like GW2 haven't made more of an effort to do the same.

I appreciate the list of exceptions, and I'm sure in an exhaustive enough search we could find more, but the exceptions are exceptions by virtue of mechanics that cause them to depart, in major or minor ways, from the paradigm.  They're still square pegs for square holes, but they're just a little bit warped in the hole.

As a rule, in a PVE game that has raiding, you can't get better PVE gear than the PVE gear gotten from the raiding.  Is it ironclad?  No, but part of the drive for changing trends in the industry right now is the fact that on the whole we can put the majority of MMOs into this model, and many players are dissatisfied with that fact.

Peace and safety.

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

11/17/12 11:26:30 AM#29
Originally posted by InFlamestwo
Originally posted by emota
Originally posted by azzamasin
Yes it is a WoW clone through and through.  Albeit with better content, better class systems but way worse off character animations.  The aniamtions were my biggest hurdle and I could never get over it.

 

lol says the GW2 fanboi, now that's a game with terrible engame. Argh yes, there is no endgame, what a jokeof a proclamation that was by Anet.

GW2 got a new endgame dungeon yesterday, might want to check it out.

I woudn't gloat because GW2 gained one more dungeon lol.

  demarc01

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 429

 
OP  11/21/12 3:41:36 PM#30
Originally posted by Xhieron

I think it's a little disingenuous to feign offense at this question or suggest anyone in the OP's position is somehow ignorant.  I've raided in EQ, and I didn't have any trouble understanding the question, nor did I feel compelled to deride the questioner for deigning to ask.

 

Raid or die means EQ/WOW gear progression.  It's not whether there's nothing to do, or even whether you can get better gear than what you're wearing by doing other things.  Of course you can; any developer worth it's salt knows better than to lock all content past a certain point behind a numbers gate.  What's really at stake here is whether non-raiders are second rate when compared to raiders, and I think the answer to that question is a resounding yes for every game built on the traditional theme park paradigm, up to and including Rift.  Hell, as of this weekend even GW2 has a similar model; the only principle difference is that the content is capped at 5 people.

 

So to rephrase the question for the uninitiated, "Is it possible to complete non-raid content competitively when compared to raid-geared players without raiding?".  Judging from the answers so far, No.  No it's not.

 

That doesn't mean the game is bad, it doesn't mean you don't have meaningful access to all content, and it doesn't even mean that non-raid rewards aren't sufficient for everything in the game except raiding, which I'll generally concede is true for almost every game in the paradigm (and that's a point ArenaNet has championed valiantly, much to the disgust of its original fanbase).  The principle grievance is that while raid gear is only necessary for raiding, it's nonetheless better than non-raid gear for non-raiding.  That represents a serious consideration for those of us evaluating games, and frankly I find it dishonest for fans of these games, however sincere, to discount this question as unimportant.

 

As to this particular contender, I haven't played SL, so I'd be delighted to hear from someone who has that non-raiders can be competitive with raiders in Rift these days (and by competitive, I mean same completion time for content, which for practical purposes in a theme park means same stats).  A couple of later responses seem to indicte that, but lets be clear.  The players who have generously provided actual insight so far, however, have also generally indicated that this flatly isn't so, and it would be nice if, for instance, someone could outline a stat comparison for highest-level raid and non-raid gear.  Is that a deal breaker for a potential new player?  Maybe and maybe not.  But if you set out to champion a game's model, you should at least endeavor to represent the model honestly.

 

/em steps off the soapbox and carries it away.

^

 

He gets it.

Sorry if my OP was unclear to people, yes I am basically asking if non-raiders are second class. I had read about some of the Chronicles and such that Rift introduced, but had no clue as to the rewards etc.

  demarc01

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 429

 
OP  11/21/12 3:47:10 PM#31
Originally posted by InFlamestwo
You can run expert dungeons for weekly T1, T2 and T3 raid rewards.

This is interesting. I have no problems with it taking a great deal more time to get the rewards, and no problems with running dungeons (My main focus) or the odd shard (10-man) I just have no desire to run 20-man raids again. (Been there done that)

Can you expand on your answer?

You say you can get T1-2-3 raid rewards for a weekly task. A token system? How many of said tokens = 1 piece of gear? Are the tokens in question current with raid levels or tier'd below? By this I mean, you mention T1-2-3 ... are current raids giving T4 items? And the quest caps at T3? Or does the quest give *current* max tier rewards?

Again I dont expect the game to give me free raid level gear for not raiding, I'd just like to see an alternative advancement path other than raiding to work towards the highest gear levels, dont matter if it takes me months longer than a person who's willing to sit through raid nights each week.

 

Thanks in advance for any more info you can give.

  Vannor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2997

11/21/12 3:56:02 PM#32
Originally posted by demarc01
Originally posted by InFlamestwo
You can run expert dungeons for weekly T1, T2 and T3 raid rewards.

This is interesting. I have no problems with it taking a great deal more time to get the rewards, and no problems with running dungeons (My main focus) or the odd shard (10-man) I just have no desire to run 20-man raids again. (Been there done that)

Can you expand on your answer?

You say you can get T1-2-3 raid rewards for a weekly task. A token system? How many of said tokens = 1 piece of gear? Are the tokens in question current with raid levels or tier'd below? By this I mean, you mention T1-2-3 ... are current raids giving T4 items? And the quest caps at T3? Or does the quest give *current* max tier rewards?

Again I dont expect the game to give me free raid level gear for not raiding, I'd just like to see an alternative advancement path other than raiding to work towards the highest gear levels, dont matter if it takes me months longer than a person who's willing to sit through raid nights each week.

 

Thanks in advance for any more info you can give.

It's actually a daily task, but it can accumulate to a maximum of 7. So, you get 1x extra a day up to a maximum of 7x. You could run 7 expert dungeons in one day and use them all up.. the next day have 1x reward that you use.. then not do any random dungeons for 5 days and have 6x to use on the 6th day.

Things have changed in the expansion.. because it's basically back to tier 1 level 60 raid gear. But you can get the tokens the same way... I 'think'. Right now the daily rewards on my main say you get expert dungeon marks.. not raid marks. But it might change when tier 2 gets introduced. That's how it worked before.. you just couldn't get the highest tier without actually raiding but you could get the previous tiers. OR it might update when I get to 60 and include the raid gear tokens as a choice.

You can still get the old level 50 raid gear from the old expert dungeon rewards though.

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2438

11/21/12 4:32:07 PM#33

Storm Legion's first update will focus on ....yep, you guessed it, a raid.


Its really no secret that Rift's endgame is heavily focused on raids so Im not sure why some people are getting upset over this.

  demarc01

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 429

 
OP  11/21/12 4:51:39 PM#34
Originally posted by Xiaoki

Storm Legion's first update will focus on ....yep, you guessed it, a raid.


Its really no secret that Rift's endgame is heavily focused on raids so Im not sure why some people are getting upset over this.

Who's getting upset?

 

I knew Rift was raid-centered last year when I played, pretty sure I mentioned in the OP that I raided GSB and ROS. I was asking if the alternative progression paths they added after I left actually brought non-raiders up any on the gear progression treadmill. Seems they have added a way to get 1 Tier behind gear, which makes sense as a method to gear up alts or new folks and get them into the current raid bracket without having to re-run the past tier of raiding.

Pretty sure no one is getting upset about it though.

Now if you ask for my input on GW2's .. that would be a different story (U-turn 3 months out blar)

RIft does just what it says on the box, I'd never fault a game for being raid-centered at endgame, just hoping that somewhere along the lines a dev would understand that not all of us like to raid and some of us would like an alternative path for progression. No I dont expect to run a 5-man and get raid level gear ... I'd be happy to get 1 token a day towards a 20 token piece that way though (ie 3 weeks of dungeon running for an equivilent piece of gear) Give it a different skin too so raiders can look special for all I care ... just bottlenecking progression behind raids turns me off these days. I've been there and done that, I've no great desire to raid anymore, personal preference, nothing against raids.

 

<Edit> I should mention - I'm not trying to turn Rift into that game, just asking if it WAS that game. I'm not bitching because Rift does not offer the option's I'd like, my post here was just to find out it it did. It does not, so I'll take that into account as I continue to look for something to play.

  Vannor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2997

11/21/12 6:17:23 PM#35
Originally posted by demarc01
Originally posted by Xiaoki

Storm Legion's first update will focus on ....yep, you guessed it, a raid.


Its really no secret that Rift's endgame is heavily focused on raids so Im not sure why some people are getting upset over this.

Who's getting upset?

 

I knew Rift was raid-centered last year when I played, pretty sure I mentioned in the OP that I raided GSB and ROS. I was asking if the alternative progression paths they added after I left actually brought non-raiders up any on the gear progression treadmill. Seems they have added a way to get 1 Tier behind gear, which makes sense as a method to gear up alts or new folks and get them into the current raid bracket without having to re-run the past tier of raiding.

Pretty sure no one is getting upset about it though.

Now if you ask for my input on GW2's .. that would be a different story (U-turn 3 months out blar)

RIft does just what it says on the box, I'd never fault a game for being raid-centered at endgame, just hoping that somewhere along the lines a dev would understand that not all of us like to raid and some of us would like an alternative path for progression. No I dont expect to run a 5-man and get raid level gear ... I'd be happy to get 1 token a day towards a 20 token piece that way though (ie 3 weeks of dungeon running for an equivilent piece of gear) Give it a different skin too so raiders can look special for all I care ... just bottlenecking progression behind raids turns me off these days. I've been there and done that, I've no great desire to raid anymore, personal preference, nothing against raids.

 

I should mention - I'm not trying to turn Rift into that game, just asking if it WAS that game. I'm not bitching because Rift does not offer the option's I'd like, my post here was just to find out it it did. It does not, so I'll take that into account as I continue to look for something to play.

There are other types of gear that is more than suitable if you don't raid, gear that is good enough to raid in. The main ones are planar gear and the PvP gear.

PvP gear is easy to get.. you just have to keep playing warfronts or conquest, you don't even have to win. You get the currency faster if you win though.. but not by a silly amount. Just a simple grind.. if you enjoy warfronts, like me, it's the best way to get top gear. I play for the PvP, the extra gear is a bonus.

Planar gear comes from doing the zone and world events.. and the rifts.

Before the expansion they added new tiers of pvp gear and new tiers of planar gear when they added a new tier of raid gear. The maximum equivalent of the pvp and planar gear to raid gear was always one tier below the top. So if there is 3 raid tiers.. the top tier of the pvp and planar gear was equivalent to tier 2 raid gear.

That sort of gear lets you wipe out content below raid standard pretty easily. You could do tier 3 raids in it. You just won't be readily geared for the next raid tier when it gets released if havn't been tier 3 raiding. The people running the tier 3 raids will, because the gear from tier 3 raids is for starting tier 4. The top tier of raiding gear is for a raid that hasn't been released yet.

So yes, you can be fully geared to do all the content without ever raiding. You just won't be able to jump into each new raid as soon as it is released. But you can get the gear suitable to run the current tier raid content without ever raiding.

That all sounds very confusing:

Expert Dungeon gear, Tier 1 Planar Gear = Gear to start running Tier 1 Raids in

Tier 1 Raid Gear, Tier 2 Planar Gear and Tier 1 PvP = Gear to run Tier 2 Raids in

Tier 2 Raid Gear, etc. yadda yadda = Gear to run Tier 3 Raids in

People who have the gear from the Tier 3 Raids were ready to do Tier 4 Raids.. but there weren't any.

Now, the expansion has set it back to only needing the new Expert Dungeon gear to start raiding. Possibly the top tier planar gear as well, not sure. The current top tier PvP gear would make running the latest raids a breeze and appears to be good enough to do the next, unreleased, raid. So the tier 1 PvP gear is equivalent to tier 1 Raid gear, the best gear in the game right now. When they add the next raid though they will probably add a new tier of planar gear, a new raid tier and not add another tier of PvP, then the top tier planar gear and PvP gear will be equivalent to the new tier 1 raid gear. Same as before the expansion, as I showed above.

Ultimately though, you can be geared for all content, INCLUDING the current raids, without ever having to raid and you can get the raid gear without ever having to raid.. just not in advance for the next upcoming raid, you have to raid for that.

So... you could do loads of world events, zone events and rifts, get the top tier planar gear.. and walk into the current raid dungeons with suitable equipment.

  Calmmo

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 53

11/22/12 6:17:51 AM#36
Planar gear is one tier behind the top tier which means anyone can have the gear to enter raids no matter their approach to playing before their decision to enter raiding. Raid gear is not needed for any other aspect of the game and as it is everything is the way it should be. Currently you can get a full epic expert dungeon level set from planar gear, and all the raid stuff is... guess what, obtainable only via SL T1 raids. That said SL raids appear to be even easier than original rift so it wont be long before any casual player and their mums can pug it all. So worry not
  Vannor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2997

11/22/12 8:22:56 AM#37
Originally posted by Calmmo
Planar gear is one tier behind the top tier which means anyone can have the gear to enter raids no matter their approach to playing before their decision to enter raiding. Raid gear is not needed for any other aspect of the game and as it is everything is the way it should be. Currently you can get a full epic expert dungeon level set from planar gear, and all the raid stuff is... guess what, obtainable only via SL T1 raids. That said SL raids appear to be even easier than original rift so it wont be long before any casual player and their mums can pug it all. So worry not

That was a much better way of saying it instead of my wall of text, lol

Dunno about how easy the raids are though, I havn't done any. What I understand from the official forums though is that the 'best' guilds are clearing them quickly. But they are the best... it's bound to be easier for them.

  demarc01

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 429

 
OP  11/22/12 1:23:56 PM#38

Aye I have a full understanding of the systems in place now. Pretty much you could say its *the same as WoW* in that you can always easily get the gear required for entry level into the current raid content. (A tier behind if you like)

Hopefully one day Dev's will *get it* and understand that not everyone likes to raid.

I'll try to be clear here, as a mostly non-raider these days, i dont care if raiders have gear thats better for raiding. Thats cool and has no effect on me. What does effect me is that raid gear is, due to its base nature of just being a pure statistical upgrade, just better for *everything*. If I run a dungeon in my dungeon set and there is a raider there in a raid set, they will have an advantage over me. To me, a raid set should help youi in raids, not *everything*. Like WoW's pvp sets, they come with a Resilience stat thats only good for PvP. The same kind of stat should be on raid gear, a resist specific to raiding. Let raiders have thier shiney gear with raid stats on it so they can progress in the raid tiers, but when they enter *my world* of dungeon crawling, their gear should be comparable to mine. (Thats not to say they cant go get a dungon set of thier own it thats thier desire)

Like I say, I dont care about the raid sets, make them look cool and themed to the raid, I just feel its lazy design to just pump based stats all the time as upgrades. Hell if raid sets were not just pure statistical upgrades all the time it would help with the power-creep in older content too, dungeons would remain a challenge for longer, over-land mobs would be trivialized much slower etc etc.

Just my opinion of course, I'm sure others will see it different.

  User Deleted
11/22/12 1:49:18 PM#39


Originally posted by demarc01
Aye I have a full understanding of the systems in place now. Pretty much you could say its *the same as WoW* in that you can always easily get the gear required for entry level into the current raid content. (A tier behind if you like)

Hopefully one day Dev's will *get it* and understand that not everyone likes to raid.

I'll try to be clear here, as a mostly non-raider these days, i dont care if raiders have gear thats better for raiding. Thats cool and has no effect on me. What does effect me is that raid gear is, due to its base nature of just being a pure statistical upgrade, just better for *everything*. If I run a dungeon in my dungeon set and there is a raider there in a raid set, they will have an advantage over me. To me, a raid set should help youi in raids, not *everything*. Like WoW's pvp sets, they come with a Resilience stat thats only good for PvP. The same kind of stat should be on raid gear, a resist specific to raiding. Let raiders have thier shiney gear with raid stats on it so they can progress in the raid tiers, but when they enter *my world* of dungeon crawling, their gear should be comparable to mine. (Thats not to say they cant go get a dungon set of thier own it thats thier desire)

Like I say, I dont care about the raid sets, make them look cool and themed to the raid, I just feel its lazy design to just pump based stats all the time as upgrades. Hell if raid sets were not just pure statistical upgrades all the time it would help with the power-creep in older content too, dungeons would remain a challenge for longer, over-land mobs would be trivialized much slower etc etc.

Just my opinion of course, I'm sure others will see it different.


I disagree with most of what you said here heh. If you equip the best raid gear and go into pvp, you will get stomped. If you equip the best pvp gear and go into raids, you wont be able to hit anything. As far as dungeons, whats the advantage there? You are a team with a common goal. If someone does 5% more damage than you, how does that ruin your experience? If you care about stats and damage meters, then maybe that'll bug you. Does it bug you enough to raid and get the same gear? nope.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/22/12 1:55:57 PM#40
Rift has the stupid special pvp stat like wow. It also has a special pve stat.
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